Koyaanisqatsi
Veteran Member
Said your brain as it wrote this sentence.
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"Objective" Evidence
- Thread starter untermensche
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Said your brain as it wrote this sentence.
Elixir
Made in America
Maybe you forgot to click your heels together?
untermensche
Contributor
Said the thing that moves the ideas I experience.
You have no access to anything besides subjective experiences.
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You obviously cannot address any ideas.
You need to have a mind fit to use ideas to have any.
Koyaanisqatsi
Veteran Member
So you have faith that others exist.
It is you so you don’t have to.
That is what I want you to believe.
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So the question is, why are you telling yourself this?
Elixir
Made in America
Just because YOU are having a mind fit, don't try to drag everyone else into it.
untermensche
Contributor
What do you have access to that is not an experience?
This group temper tantrum is getting boring.
fast
Contributor
The presence of an object is independent of a conscious agent's knowledge of an objects presence. Consider a person that that dies alone at a kitchen table. The table remains present upon death, even though knowledge of the table is lost to the one that has passed away. When another enters the room, he becomes aware that the table is present, but neither awareness nor knowledge was a factor in the streadfastness of the enduring presence of the table.
An agents knowledge of something has no bearing on the objective truth of the matter. We would not discover that which is true that it was present if it were not already true that what was discovered was already present.
An agents knowledge of something has no bearing on the objective truth of the matter. We would not discover that which is true that it was present if it were not already true that what was discovered was already present.
untermensche
Contributor
A table is only present to a mind experiencing one.
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So do you I assume.
Dodge.
Worthy of a three year old.
Elixir
Made in America
Looking at your vapid posts almost qualifies...
Jobar
Zen Hedonist
Untermensche, do you consider yourself a solipsist? I'm a realist myself, because an external, objective reality and other conscious beings seems a more probable paradigm than just being a brain in a jar. But I do admit that there is no absolute proof that I'm *not* a brain in a jar.
A solipsist must ask him/herself- "how did my brain come to be, and who made the jar?" Even if all your experiences are totally subjective and internal, the experiences still present themselves to your awareness.
"Christ, what an *imagination* I've got!"
-Shalmaneser, the self-aware computer from John Brunner's novel Stand On Zanzibar
A solipsist must ask him/herself- "how did my brain come to be, and who made the jar?" Even if all your experiences are totally subjective and internal, the experiences still present themselves to your awareness.
"Christ, what an *imagination* I've got!"
-Shalmaneser, the self-aware computer from John Brunner's novel Stand On Zanzibar
Jobar
Zen Hedonist
I know that Koy remembers Yahzi; I expect others here do, too. He had an infallible method of demonstrating objective reality- he called it the 'Baseball Bat Test'. Trouble was, he couldn't perform it online, only IRL.
Pity, that.
Pity, that.
fast
Contributor
That has an ambiguous overtone.
If you mean "present to a mind," as if to say there is no cognition of the tables presence without a mind to allow us to experience the fact there is a table present, then that is akin to saying we do not have awareness of its presence without a mind. In other words, knowledge requires a subject.
But, i'm not disagreeing that we cannot know of a table's presence without a mind. What I'm saying is that there is a table whether you know it or not. If it wasn't already there (already, I say), then mind or not, you would not have come to experience the fact it's there.
So, if you mean "present to a mind" as if to say the very presence of the table depends on there being a mind, then I wholeheartedly disagree. It's like you're saying everything we see disappears when we close our eyes, as if to say only what we actually see in the moment exists.
untermensche
Contributor
Another childish dodge.
If all I could say was absolute crap like that I would be ashamed of myself.
What do you have access to that is not an experience?
untermensche
Contributor
No.
But I have "faith" an external world exists.
All I have and all any human has are their experiences.
You will not see one person here waving their arms and dancing like they have to pee name something else.
untermensche
Contributor
What you call the "presence" of the table is an experience of it.
No experience means no presence.
If you have absolutely no experience of the table can you say there is a table?
skepticalbip
Contributor
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- Everything we know is wrong (to some degree)
The reality of whether the table is there or not is independent of what anyone believes or says.
The planet Neptune existed long, long before anyone "experienced" it, indeed long, long before there were humans capable of "experiencing" it. And, even though there are very, very few humans who have ever "experienced" it, it still exists even when no one is looking at ("experiencing") it.
untermensche
Contributor
If there is no experience of a table how do you say there is a table?
What can say there is a table?
The only tables that can be said to exist are the tables that are experienced.
And saying a table exists is to say it is experienced.
And saying the table exists as more than an experience is just a belief.
Our minds are trained very early to trust what we experience.
skepticalbip
Contributor
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- Everything we know is wrong (to some degree)
As I said, what anyone "says" about the table, is irrelevant as to its existence.
What makes you think reality gives a shit about what you experience or say?
What makes you think reality gives a shit about what you experience or say?
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untermensche
Contributor
Not true at all.
It's existence is totally dependent on what people report.
If there are no reports of it's existence then it cannot be thought to have existence.