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Observation vs measurement

fast

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I saw someone. I looked directly at her. I saw her directly. She is a blonde.

Then, I saw someone else. I looked at her through the mirror. I saw her but indirectly. She is a brunette.

I saw the blonde directly, and I saw the brunette indirectly, so I observed both the blonde and the brunette; however, although it's the case I saw the brunette indirectly, it's not the case I observed the brunette indirectly. I directly observed the blonde, and I directly observed the brunette despite the fact I saw the blonde directly and saw the brunette indirectly.

How is that? It has to do with the fact about how "directly" and "indirectly" mean something different when applying it to what we see versus what we observe. But why? Because in science, "observation" has a very specialized meaning.

In science, to observe is very broad on more than one front. To hear is not to see, but both hearing and seeing is a way to observe. In fact, any of our senses can be employed and considered as observing. That's one front, the use of our senses. The second front has to do with measuring, whatever that measuring tool may be, so even if I cannot detect something with my senses but can nevertheless measure something, it can accurately be said that we have observed something. In each case, that is a direct observation.

An indirect observation, on the other hand, is where we deduce a fact. That means there is a deduction occurring. Essentially, where there can be a deduction, there can be an argument. A direct observation needs no argument, but an indirect observation does. For instance, if we postulate that X exists because of our ability to measure its effect on Y, then X is an indirect observation.

The following is where things begin to get sticky:

We're not always as well equipped to measure what we'd like to. When the act of measuring interferes with what's trying to be measured, there's a fundamental question of whether we've actually measured what we've sought to measure and whether we've observed what we've attempted to observe.

For example, trying to use massive photons while measuring puny electrons. We're told something that sounds kind of spooky (that observation alone can affect an outcome)--until we recognize that no, looking in this instance can't stand good as observation. Often times, looking and seeing can (and most often does) stand good as an observation, but no, no, no, not when dealing with photons for crying out loud.

We apparently have this idea that not every instance of observing is an instance of seeing. That is true, but (and here's what I have to say): not every instance of seeing is an instance of observation.

Case in point: the act of seeing (involving photons) skews our ability to observe, especially when what we're trying to measure and observe is being affected by the very things that allows us to see.
 
"You see, but you do not observe. The distinction is clear." - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia, 1892

"In physics, the observer effect is the fact that simply observing a situation or phenomenon necessarily changes that phenomenon." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)
 
Any so-called observation that affects a measurements' results is not a true observation of what was intended to be observed but rather a skewed version of what was originally intended to be measured. We need not see. We need only to observe. The trick is to devise a method of measurement that does not incorporate an impact on an unmolested phenomenon.
 
Any so-called observation that affects a measurements' results is not a true observation of what was intended to be observed but rather a skewed version of what was originally intended to be measured. We need not see. We need only to observe. The trick is to devise a method of measurement that does not incorporate an impact on an unmolested phenomenon.

But that's impossible. The observer effect is universal - no method of measurement can exist that does not incorporate such an impact. It can be minimized, and the theoretical minimum uncertainty in a measurement is as described by Heisenberg - one can learn the position of a particle only at the cost of uncertainty about its momentum; Or the momentum at the cost of no longer knowing position. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle.

Heisenberg was pulled over by the police. The cop said "Did you know you were traveling at 97 miles per hour?" "Oh, great", says Heisenberg. "Now I'm lost".
 
Huh? You havent defined ”see” or ”observed”.
Standard meaning:
To ”see” is have a subjective personal experience.
To observe is to (formally) detect something.

And seeing hair color through a mirror is not an indirect observation of haircolor.
Using a colormeter or hearing some telling you her hair color is though.
 
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And seeing hair color through a mirror is not an indirect observation of haircolor.
I agree. That would be seeing hair indirectly--since what was seen was not the hair but a reflection of the hair. It's not an indirect observation. I said that.

Using a colormeter or hearing some telling you her hair color is though.
No, the colormeter would be a direct observation. The hearing (from another) ... such testimonial evidence isn't direct or indirect observation; that's more like hear say.
 
Well, if you unpack it, you never saw the blonde directly.

Seeing is processing arrangements of different frequencies of photonic streams hitting your eye. (We won't delve into anything deeper than that, heaven forbid, except for a point I'll touch on in a bit). Point is, the blonde never gave off any photons of her own (unless you count infra-red, but that's besides the point). The blonde selectively reflected photons, which in turn were filtered, diffused and refracted by the intervening air.

The brunette suffered the same, except she additionally had her image reflected so there was another modifier in between.

So what I'm getting at is that in both cases you never directly observed anything. And that brings me to the point I'll touch on, that is, your built-in bias inherent in processing of the image you've received. There can never be anything like accurate observation, only degrees of it.

In the case of a colorimeter, it could not distinguish whether it is looking at a blonde or a piece of cardboard (assuming the cardboard reflected the same wavelengths as standard temperature and pressure blonde hair :))
 
I'm trying to keep the two worlds apart, the seeing and the observing. Why? Because science has captured in its lexicon of stipulative meanings something that is supposed to be very precise and particular to the field of study. It has in its grip on what "observation" means. It tries to do the same with what we see, but that's questionable.

When we laymen speak of something we saw, the truth of that statement is not thwarted by the teachings of science, as the inner workings of how it is we see things don't negate but rather explain how it is we see that which we do.

There's nothing peculiar or odd about saying I saw someone--directly (in plain sight for example) or indirectly, as through a mirror. Science teaches us how it is we see, but those scientific facts being what they are do not undercut the plain ole sheer truth behind the fact we do see things.

How the measuring of a rope with a ruler for the purpose of deriving its length can arrive at an observation affected by an observer, I'm not sure, but using photons to measure electrons jumps out as something akin to test group tampering.

Gotta run
 
I think the discussion has ample scope for wandering into dubious philosophical territory. Suffice to say that science, by necessity, works according to group consensus and, specifically, falsifiability. Truth is supposed to be tenuous.
 
Little fictional tale...

The Witness -- I don't know what the motive was or what had happened between them. All I heard were angry voices, and then I saw him shoot the girl with a gun he had in his pocket. I heard the body hit the ground and panicked, knowing that if Carlos Dominguez found me, I would be his next victim. Now, I saw what I saw and this is my observation that he killed that poor girl and I hope I can count on the justice system to admit my first-hand witness account and convict Carlos Dominguez for a very long time in prison.

The Judge -- Were you actually observing Mr. Dominguez at the time?

The Witness -- No, I just saw him a the moment he fired his gun.

The Judge -- So, how could you have made an observation if you were not in fact observing him?

The Witness -- I saw him shoot this girl and now she's dead. I heard her body hit the floor. So, yes, it's my observation that he killed her.

Epilogue -- Carlos Dominguez was convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to life imprisonment without parole for 25 years.

End of my little story.
EB
 
Without waxing too philosophical, we can at least open the ol' dictionary to see what it says...

observe
v.tr.
1.
a. To be or become aware of, especially through careful and directed attention; notice: observe a car leaving the property.
b. To watch attentively: observe a child's behaviour.
c. To make a systematic or scientific observation of: observe the orbit of a comet.

EB
 
Simple. Observation is qualitative, meadurement is quantitative.

'Red and Blonde and Smooth' are subjective qualitative adjectives used to describe reality.

Red light as as a measured is a wavelength of 6328 nanometers. Mechanicaly smoothness is defined as a measured number defined in an international standard.

Metaphysics of thought forms vs quantitative science,
 
Simple. Observation is qualitative, meadurement is quantitative.

'Red and Blonde and Smooth' are subjective qualitative adjectives used to describe reality.

Red light as as a measured is a wavelength of 6328 nanometers. Mechanicaly smoothness is defined as a measured number defined in an international standard.

Metaphysics of thought forms vs quantitative science,

6,328 nm is mid-infrared. The longest visible wavelength for EM radiation is about 780nm (which is approximately the longest visible wavelength of a wide band, all of which are perceived by humans as 'red'). The lower wavelength boundary of what people call 'red' is highly variable, and completely subjective. The upper bound is less variable, but is by no means the same for all subjects, even when we only consider people with 'normal' vision.

Spurious precision helps nobody (even when you don't get it wrong by an order of magnitude, presumably due to a missing decimal point; 632.8nm is the wavelength of light produced by the most commonly used variant of Helium-Neon laser, and is usually described as 'red'. 632.8nm light is red, but red light is not necessarily 632.8nm in the same way that dogs are quadrupeds, but quadrupeds are not necessarily dogs).
 
Simple. Observation is qualitative, meadurement is quantitative.

'Red and Blonde and Smooth' are subjective qualitative adjectives used to describe reality.

Red light as as a measured is a wavelength of 6328 nanometers. Mechanicaly smoothness is defined as a measured number defined in an international standard.

Metaphysics of thought forms vs quantitative science,

6,328 nm is mid-infrared. The longest visible wavelength for EM radiation is about 780nm (which is approximately the longest visible wavelength of a wide band, all of which are perceived by humans as 'red'). The lower wavelength boundary of what people call 'red' is highly variable, and completely subjective. The upper bound is less variable, but is by no means the same for all subjects, even when we only consider people with 'normal' vision.

Spurious precision helps nobody (even when you don't get it wrong by an order of magnitude, presumably due to a missing decimal point; 632.8nm is the wavelength of light produced by the most commonly used variant of Helium-Neon laser, and is usually described as 'red'. 632.8nm light is red, but red light is not necessarily 632.8nm in the same way that dogs are quadrupeds, but quadrupeds are not necessarily dogs).

Thanks for an excellent qualitative response and a good belly laugh...I left off the decimal point. Even with glasses I can barely read the keyboard and read posts. Diabetic retinopathy.

Its been 16 years since I designed video systems. Yes red is a spectrum with I believe 632 as the center in RGB. 632 is easy to generate with a he-ne laser. The point is quantitatively red has a numerical definition.

I googled spontaneous precision and got nothing,, please elaborate on the term.

Your post is a spurious response....
 
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Simple. Observation is qualitative, meadurement is quantitative.

'Red and Blonde and Smooth' are subjective qualitative adjectives used to describe reality.

Red light as as a measured is a wavelength of 6328 nanometers. Mechanicaly smoothness is defined as a measured number defined in an international standard.

Metaphysics of thought forms vs quantitative science,

6,328 nm is mid-infrared. The longest visible wavelength for EM radiation is about 780nm (which is approximately the longest visible wavelength of a wide band, all of which are perceived by humans as 'red'). The lower wavelength boundary of what people call 'red' is highly variable, and completely subjective. The upper bound is less variable, but is by no means the same for all subjects, even when we only consider people with 'normal' vision.

Spurious precision helps nobody (even when you don't get it wrong by an order of magnitude, presumably due to a missing decimal point; 632.8nm is the wavelength of light produced by the most commonly used variant of Helium-Neon laser, and is usually described as 'red'. 632.8nm light is red, but red light is not necessarily 632.8nm in the same way that dogs are quadrupeds, but quadrupeds are not necessarily dogs).

Thanks for an excellent qualitative response and a good belly laugh...I left off the decimal point. Even with glasses I can barely read the keyboard and read posts. Diabetic retinopathy.

Its been 16 years since I designed video systems. Yes red is a spectrum with I believe 632 as the center in RGB. 632 is easy to generate with a he-ne laser. The point is quantitatively red has a numerical definition.

I googled spontaneous precision and got nothing,, please elaborate on the term.

Your post is a spurious response....
There is, as far as i am aware, no such thing as 'spontaneous precision', so i am not surprised you didn't find anything.

Spurious precision is when you define something to a degree of accuracy not supported by the precision of the inputs. Like measuring something as 10m long with a tape, cutting it into thirds, and saying that the resulting pieces are 3.333333333m long, which implies accuracy to the nearest nanometre, when the original accuracy was only to the millimetre at best. The actual length you can reasonably report would be (at best) 3.333m, assuming an approximately 1mm accuracy in your original measurement.

Red light covers a range of wavelengths between about 780 and about 600nm, and so providing more than two significant digits is spurious accuracy - it implies a degree of precision that cannot possibly really exist. 630nm is a better claim for the wavelength of red light than 632.8nm, which falsely implies that a variation of 0.1nm could make the light 'not red', when clearly it would not.
 
By red, you mean, activating specific cells in the human retina? Or do you think that red light in the brain is transformed into qualia. :D
 
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