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Oh So Godly Hobby Lobby Holy Hobbie Horse Decision Discussion

This doesn't have to do with Hobby Lobbys religious beliefs. If it did they would be heavily invested in companies that make contraception and abortion equipment. (OOPS!)

This only has to do with their political beliefs.

And if that's the case, which I have no problem either, was a big fight for something very small.
In political beliefs, he meant partisan disapproval of a Democrat being in the White House.

Which does beg the question, stem cell research? Do they okay any treatments that involved research from the naughty stem cells?
 
Such protections become questionable when a corporation is formed because a corporation is a compromise with the Government, which trades away some rights in the form of regulations for certain protections from liabilities.

And I believe they have been wrong about some of those other things too. i also believe that if Hobby Lobby wants to not serve blacks at their store they should have that right too.

What Hobby Lobby was protesting wasn't even an "abortion drug". The drug busted its buns to prevent a pregnancy from happening, not aborting one. Otherwise, it wouldn't be called the Morning After Pill, because if it waited a few weeks or a month, it wouldn't work!

So clearly even where there is a non-controversial health care service, there can be controversy attached to it. Want another example, vaccinations. Vaccinations have undoubtedly save tens to hundreds of thousands to maybe even millions of lives (in America alone), and protect tens to hundreds of millions of people (in America alone) from very bad diseases. They have been proven, as in actually proven or at least as proven as science can reach, to be safe. Yet there is controversy over them with some people.

We'll see what happens when a Jehovah's witness company also wants to challenge it.
 
And I believe they have been wrong about some of those other things too. i also believe that if Hobby Lobby wants to not serve blacks at their store they should have that right too.
Egad! That would be a civil rights thing, not a regulation thing.

What Hobby Lobby was protesting wasn't even an "abortion drug". The drug busted its buns to prevent a pregnancy from happening, not aborting one. Otherwise, it wouldn't be called the Morning After Pill, because if it waited a few weeks or a month, it wouldn't work!

So clearly even where there is a non-controversial health care service, there can be controversy attached to it. Want another example, vaccinations. Vaccinations have undoubtedly save tens to hundreds of thousands to maybe even millions of lives (in America alone), and protect tens to hundreds of millions of people (in America alone) from very bad diseases. They have been proven, as in actually proven or at least as proven as science can reach, to be safe. Yet there is controversy over them with some people.

We'll see what happens when a Jehovah's witness company also wants to challenge it.
You very much side stepped the point, ie, you stated that most health care procedures are not questionable. I gave you two examples, one which included the drug in this case, where even not in question treatments are being turned into a controversy.

But to reflect on your sidestep, it'll take years for each protest to reach the Supreme Court! SCOTUS has successfully muddied the waters and there can be no resolution to future protests by religious pieces of paper until SCOTUS can rule on each individual procedure later (which is absurd!). It is almost as if they did so purposefully, so they could force more cases so they could overrule themselves in the near future and give ACA the boot if Ginsberg can be replaced by a brownshirt Justice.
 
Under the opinion the 1st Amendment protection was NOT decided because the RFRA already protects religious exercise (acts motivated by religious conviction) - it says nothing about pieces of paper holding a system of religious belief. does it? It makes clear that what is protected is religious exercise by a legal "person" whether or not it is compelled by a system of religious belief.
But a corporation can't have beliefs. A corporation is a legal entity that exists only on paper. A corporation is shielded from certain liabilities and is also required to meet certain regulations. A corporation can not have religious affiliation as it is anthropomorphic.

Recall that an affiliation with a religion is irrelevant (see above). What I think you might mean, more accurately, is that a corporation cannot exercise religion because we are ascribing human characteristics to something that is not human. But whether or not you think a corporation should have the right to exercise religion due to the nature of its being, that is a separate issue from whether or not a corporation can "exercise", i.e. do a task, piece of work, activity, or process that can be characterized as religious. It may exercise religion BUT that does not mean it is protected.

Anyway, it ought to be self-evident that a corporation can do a task or activity that is religious in nature. Just as a corporation can have an exercise in public relations, advertising, or team building, it may have an exercise for religious purposes. An exercise is a task or activity or conduct with a specific purpose (such as making money), and unless you are willing to claim that corporations can't have any activities (excercises) with a purpose because it is not a human being you would be philosophically inconsistent without justification.

There are, of course, plenty of examples of corporations that exercise religion, some non-profit, others for profit. Religious book publishers, book stores, charities, foundations, and and trusts (for example). So yes, partnerships, LLCs, Trusts, Unions, and Corporations (profit and non-profit) can exercise religion.

THEREFORE, there is only one valid question left; "Does RFRA limit its protection ONLY to individual persons and if so, does that preclude the protection of all other forms of associations"?


The Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 (RFRA) prohibits the “Government [from] substantially burden[ing] a person’s exercise of religion even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability” unless the Government “demonstrates that application of the burden to the person—(1) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and (2) is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest.” 42 U. S. C. §§2000bb–1(a), (b). As amended by the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act of 2000 (RLUIPA), RFRA covers “any exercise of religion, whether or not compelled by, or central to, a system of religious belief.” §2000cc–5(7)(A).At issue here are regulations promulgated by the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act of 2010 (ACA), which, as relevant here, requires specified employers’ group health plans to furnish “preventive care and screenings” for women without “any cost sharing requirements,”42 U. S. C. §300gg–13(a)(4). Congress did not specify what types of preventive care must be covered; it authorized the Health Resources and Services Administration, a component of HHS, to decide. Ibid. Nonexempt employers are generally required to provide coverage for the 20 contraceptive methods approved by the Food and Drug Admin
Here is the rub, what exactly is restrictive about a health care provider providing a service? Health care provider gives the birth control to the patient. The insurance provider subsequently reimburses for the birth control. At what point is the privately held corporation involved at all in that process?

When the private employer is mandated to obtain an ACA approved policy that supports a certain kind of birth control, then the private employer is involved in the process because he, not the employee, signs the group policy contract.
 
But a corporation can't have beliefs. A corporation is a legal entity that exists only on paper. A corporation is shielded from certain liabilities and is also required to meet certain regulations. A corporation can not have religious affiliation as it is anthropomorphic.
Recall that an affiliation with a religion is irrelevant (see above). What I think you might mean, more accurately, is that a corporation cannot exercise religion because we are ascribing human characteristics to something that is not human. But whether or not you think a corporation should have the right to exercise religion due to the nature of its being, that is a separate issue from whether or not a corporation can "exercise", i.e. do a task, piece of work, activity, or process that can be characterized as religious. It may exercise religion BUT that does not mean it is protected.

Anyway, it ought to be self-evident that a corporation can do a task or activity that is religious in nature.
No it can't. The people that work for a corporation can, but a corporation itself can not be religious. And the requirements of the law are applicable to the shell that is the corporation, not the individuals in it.

There are, of course, plenty of examples of corporations that exercise religion, some non-profit, others for profit. Religious book publishers, book stores, charities, foundations, and and trusts (for example). So yes, partnerships, LLCs, Trusts, Unions, and Corporations (profit and non-profit) can exercise religion.
None of those examples shows the organization itself being religious, just the people in it. Are corporate tax laws taxing the workers? No, just the paper shell that is the Corporation. Are environmental standards applied to individuals in a corporation? No, just the company itself.

I'd like to know how a corporation gets baptized. Are they Calvinists or Hobbes? How did a corporation get to its religious position? Was it saved? Because otherwise, the religious position of the Corporation is actually just the religious position of the principle owner.

THEREFORE, there is only one valid question left; "Does RFRA limit its protection ONLY to individual persons and if so, does that preclude the protection of all other forms of associations"?
Not really. Because there is a difference between protecting the religious beliefs of a church and a corporation that has limited liabilities.

The Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 (RFRA) prohibits the “Government [from] substantially burden[ing] a person’s exercise of religion even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability” unless the Government “demonstrates that application of the burden to the person—(1) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and (2) is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest.” 42 U. S. C. §§2000bb–1(a), (b). As amended by the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act of 2000 (RLUIPA), RFRA covers “any exercise of religion, whether or not compelled by, or central to, a system of religious belief.” §2000cc–5(7)(A).At issue here are regulations promulgated by the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act of 2010 (ACA), which, as relevant here, requires specified employers’ group health plans to furnish “preventive care and screenings” for women without “any cost sharing requirements,”42 U. S. C. §300gg–13(a)(4). Congress did not specify what types of preventive care must be covered; it authorized the Health Resources and Services Administration, a component of HHS, to decide. Ibid. Nonexempt employers are generally required to provide coverage for the 20 contraceptive methods approved by the Food and Drug Admin
Here is the rub, what exactly is restrictive about a health care provider providing a service? Health care provider gives the birth control to the patient. The insurance provider subsequently reimburses for the birth control. At what point is the privately held corporation involved at all in that process?
When the private employer is mandated to obtain an ACA approved policy that supports a certain kind of birth control, then the private employer is involved in the process because he, not the employee, signs the group policy contract.
How is the involvement any different? They are signing a contract either way. How do they know if anyone actually would have used the birth control they object to on ignorant / non-scientific grounds?
 
No, it doesn't mean "you can't have it at all", it means "if you want it you must pay for it yourself."

Given the fungible nature of money, once an employee has his pay he can spend it on whatever he wants.
Since an employee CAN'T pay for health insurance outside of what their employer provides (thanks to Republicans), no its doesn't mean "if you want it you must pay for it yourself." It means the employee can't get it. Moreover, since health insurance is part of the employee compensation package, it isn't the employer paying for it anyway.
 
Forcing businesses to pay for what amounts to abortion drugs, day after pill for example, goes far beyond nay reasonable exercise of federal power.
The "day after" pill is NOT an abortion pill, unless you are one of those wingnuts that also considers month-cycle birth control pills, patches, implants and IUDs to also be "abortion pills"

Federal agencies run by appointees cannot enact such requirements outside of congress.
Congress voted to pass ObamaCare

Obama istrying his best to enact his progessive agenda by executive orderand govt agencies.
bullshit

if we had a single payer system instead of the Obama hc mess that presumed to specify what insurance companies provide andwhat businesses had to provide and forcing people to buy insurance we would not have these issues.
On this I will agree, however it was the Republicans that wouldn't allow single-payer. Progressives wanted it and still do.


Obama went too far and SCOTUS is reining in POTUS as it should.
Obama didn't go far enough. If he hadn't caved on the issue of "public option" on the exchanges, employees of Hobby Lobby could take the premium contribution from Hobby Lobby and buy their own insurance with whatever coverage they wanted through the exchange.
 
The day after pill IS NOT A FUCKING ABORTION DRUG. It prevents a pregnancy. This is their wrong and uninformed argument. It's just all kinds of wrong.

As I understand it, it can terminate the process of fertilization which is what the objection was about.
So does an IUD, monthly-cycle pills, implants, and patches in exactly the same way - by preventing implantation.
 
I do not like the idea that the govt says company supplied plans must pay for birth control.

Out of all the things the government says must be included in a minimum plan, THIS ONE you don't like, but all the others are fine?

The essential health benefits include at least the following items and services:
  • Ambulatory patient services (outpatient care you get without being admitted to a hospital)
  • Emergency services
  • Hospitalization (such as surgery)
  • Maternity and newborn care (care before and after your baby is born)
  • Mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatment (this includes counseling and psychotherapy)
  • Prescription drugs
  • Rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices (services and devices to help people with injuries, disabilities, or chronic conditions gain or recover mental and physical skills)
  • Laboratory services
  • Preventive and wellness services and chronic disease management
  • Pediatric services
Essential health benefits are minimum requirements for all plans in the Marketplace. Plans may offer additional coverage. You will see exactly what each plan offers when you compare them side-by-side in the Marketplace.

And the "mental health treatments" which are also a problem for someone's religion are fine with you to shove down their throat?
And other lab services that are a problem for some other religionist?
And the prescription drugs that are a problem for yet another religionist?


Or is it just the women's uteruses that you think religion should be able to invade?
 
Moreover, since health insurance is part of the employee compensation package, it isn't the employer paying for it anyway.

You don't understand. See, if the employer pays a sum of money to a third party insurance company and that insurance company uses some small fraction of that money to pay for certain methods of birth control as part of a larger employee compensation package, it is a much more direct method of paying for these contraceptives than if the employee just cashed their check at the bank inside their local Kroger and then took the money to the pharmacy counter to buy some Plan B pills.

This is about accountability to God, after all. If you're the Hobby Lobby folks and you wind up at the pearly gates one day, no doubt St. Peter is going to ask if you paid for any sort of maybe abortion providing medicines with the money you made selling cheap Chinese trinkets.

As such, it is very, very important to be able to say "no, we didn't pay any intermediaries any money which people could choose freely to spend in part on nasty abortion stuff...we paid those people directly."

Perhaps a minor distinction to some, but we're talking about souls here.
 
Yahoo says SCOTUS (probably 5 justices) says Hobby Lobby can exclude it. Corporations can now believe in god. So how long until corporations can own guns?

They can now. Many do. Many entities exist for no other purpose. (It makes things much simpler when dealing with NFA firearms.)
 
So let me see if I am understanding this correctly...

In the 1980's, Antonin Scalia authors a USSC opinion that says individuals CAN be prosecuted when their deeply held religious practices (taking peyote during a religious ceremony) are against a state's laws.

This prompts the bi-partisan "Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1988" which says "governments should not substantially burden religious exercise without compelling justification."

Now we have Samuel Alito citing RFRA to allow a corporation to "substantially burden religious exercise" of hundreds of employees under the guise of not burdening one family's scientifically wrong "religious beliefs" about birth control. The majority USSC (which includes Scalia) decision also says that Congress should move to provide birth control for the women affected by this decision.

So these five men have completely perverted the meaning and point of RFRA, which was enacted 80-0 because the 1980's USSC (Scalia) stomped on individual freedom in a situation that affected no one else. They (including Scalia) are now using it to allow a very small group of people to stomp on the individual freedoms of many others. On the one hand, Scalia is willing to use the power of the court stomp on the freedoms of Native Americans; then he turns around and uses the power of the court to stomp on the freedoms of women.

This whole thing may seem like he's doing an about-face, but I see a consistent pattern with him.

I also think that part of the motivation in this ruling was a big "fuck you" to the other branches of government at the expense of women. I don't think it was any accident that these particular men used that particular law (RFRA) to decide this case, and included the specific *suggestion* that the other two branches of government should take action to provide birth control. I think Scalia is still butt-hurt over the clear rebuke from Congress and President Clinton over his bone-headed opinion in Employment Division vs Smith, and this is pay-back - at the expense of women (another minority he doesn't care about anyway)
 
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I think it's nice that the Catholic justices voted to allow religious exemptions for items that their religion is against while specifically denying religious exemptions for other religions.
 
I'm curious to see how long it will be befor maternity coverage for single women is denied.
 
I think it's nice that the Catholic justices voted to allow religious exemptions for items that their religion is against while specifically denying religious exemptions for other religions.
I think based on what Alito noted, they actually haven't ruled on any other procedure, stating it doesn't necessarily apply to transfusions and vaccinations. Not necessarily implies it hasn't been ruled on. This ruling feels like a Trojan Horse that'll allow them to can ACA if a Republican wins in '16 and replaces Ginsberg with the Conservotron 5000.
 
Recall that an affiliation with a religion is irrelevant (see above). What I think you might mean, more accurately, is that a corporation cannot exercise religion because we are ascribing human characteristics to something that is not human. But whether or not you think a corporation should have the right to exercise religion due to the nature of its being, that is a separate issue from whether or not a corporation can "exercise", i.e. do a task, piece of work, activity, or process that can be characterized as religious. It may exercise religion BUT that does not mean it is protected.

Anyway, it ought to be self-evident that a corporation can do a task or activity that is religious in nature.
No it can't. The people that work for a corporation can, but a corporation itself can not be religious. And the requirements of the law are applicable to the shell that is the corporation, not the individuals in it.
Yes it can. If we are speaking of the "requirements of the law" regarding this "shell", regardless of your philosophical views of the nature of a corporation, a corporation can exercise religion because, under the law, it is to be treated as a "person".

First, the dictionary act definition of "person" in law "include corporations, . . . as well as individuals.” 1 U. S. C. §1."

Second, consistent with that legal definition corporations as fictive persons, they are held liable for crimes'; conversely they have the same legal rights such against unreasonable search and seizure, just compensation for takings, etc.

Why? (Alito) explains: "it is important to keep in mind that the purpose of this fiction is to provide protection for human beings. A corporation is simply a form of organization used by human beings to achieve desired ends. An established body of law specifies the rights and obligations of the people(including shareholders, officers, and employees) who are associated with a corporation in one way or another. When rights, whether constitutional or statutory, are extended to corporations, the purpose is to protect the rights of these people. For example, extending Fourth Amendment protection to corporations protects the privacy interests of employees and others associated with the company. Protecting corporations from government seizure of their property without just compensation protects all those who have a stake in the corporations’ financial well-being. And protecting the free-exercise rights of corporations like Hobby Lobby, Conestoga, and Mardel protects the religious liberty of the humans who own and control those companies…."

There are, of course, plenty of examples of corporations that exercise religion, some non-profit, others for profit. Religious book publishers, book stores, charities, foundations, and and trusts (for example). So yes, partnerships, LLCs, Trusts, Unions, and Corporations (profit and non-profit) can exercise religion.
None of those examples shows the organization itself being religious, just the people in it...(it is) just a paper shell..."

Actually yes and no. In common usage people often conflate "corporation" with company or organization, which was my usage, but they are not the same. When we speak of "corporations" we often blur the FORM of legally defined association (incorporated) with the physical association itself (which is an organization...e.g., a company, church, educational institution, club, etc.). Incorporated organizations, be they a company or church, are always one or more people who "organize" (associate) with each other under self-defined and legally defined rules of conduct...one of them being under "incorporation" (others being, for example, LLC, Partnership, Trusts, Civil Unions, etc.).

However under your own definition (corporations as just paper shells) the "form" is irrelevant, it is merely a "shell" of rules and powers for its natural persons to associate under. "Form" is merely a typology and typologies themselves don't exercise, they merely lay out the rules of exercising (an activity) which may, or may not, be religious in nature.

As you may have said "There's the rub". If 'corporations' (or LLCs, or partnerships, or civil unions) cannot exercise religion then the organizations under which they are organized can - organizations are natural persons employing resources to an end, and if their end is religious then it is protected.

You don't have to believe that corporations have rights to arrive at the same conclusion (unless you believe incorporated groups are staffed by robots under direction of a master computer).

I will address you other points later, when I have time.
 
First, the dictionary act definition of "person" in law "include corporations, . . . as well as individuals.” 1 U. S. C. §1."

Second, consistent with that legal definition corporations as fictive persons, they are held liable for crimes'; conversely they have the same legal rights such against unreasonable search and seizure, just compensation for takings, etc.
This has been mentioned but if corporations are persons how can we allow them to be owned like slaves?
 
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