Old age: becoming a Struldbrug?

[lpetrich]

Jonathan Swift's satire Gulliver's Travels covered a lot of territory, and one bit of it was the issue of immortality. Gulliver learns that the Struldbrugs, certain inhabitants of Luggnagg, are immortal, and he thinks about how great it must be, all the things one can learn and all the things one can do and all the places one can visit. But there is a catch. Though the Struldbrugs spend the first half-century or so of their lives in normal fashion, after that, they suffer the decrepitude of old age, unloved by the rest of Luggnaggian society, unable to enjoy their lives very much, and wishing that they could die.

Advancing technology has enabled us to live longer and longer, but has it improved our quality of life enough to keep us from becoming real-life Struldbrugs?

When do you know you're old enough to die? Barbara Ehrenreich has some answers | Life and style | The Guardian

With her latest book, Natural Causes, Barbara Ehrenreich notes that there’s an age at which death no longer requires much explanation.

Four years ago, Barbara Ehrenreich, 76, reached the realisation that she was old enough to die. Not that the author, journalist and political activist was sick; she just didn’t want to spoil the time she had left undergoing myriad preventive medical tests or restricting her diet in pursuit of a longer life.

While she would seek help for an urgent health issue, she wouldn’t look for problems.

Now Ehrenreich felt free to enjoy herself. “I tend to worry that a lot of my friends who are my age don’t get to that point,” she tells the Guardian. “They’re frantically scrambling for new things that might prolong their lives.”

It is not a suicidal decision, she stresses. Ehrenreich has what she calls “a very keen bullshit detector” and she has done her research.

Thus,

“I’m sorry, I’m not going out of this life without butter on my bread. I’ve had so much grief from people about butter. The most important thing is that food tastes good enough to eat it. I like a glass of wine or a bloody mary, too.”

Though

... Ehrenreich won’t be giving up the gym anytime soon. She works out most days because she enjoys cardio and weight training and “lots of stretching”, not because it might make her live longer.

 

[lpetrich]

Ezekiel J. Emanuel has gone even further. He has written Why I Hope to Die at 75 - The Atlantic, "An argument that society and families—and you—will be better off if nature takes its course swiftly and promptly". Instead of becoming a Struldbrug.

I am sure of my position. Doubtless, death is a loss. It deprives us of experiences and milestones, of time spent with our spouse and children. In short, it deprives us of all the things we value.

But here is a simple truth that many of us seem to resist: living too long is also a loss. It renders many of us, if not disabled, then faltering and declining, a state that may not be worse than death but is nonetheless deprived. It robs us of our creativity and ability to contribute to work, society, the world. It transforms how people experience us, relate to us, and, most important, remember us. We are no longer remembered as vibrant and engaged but as feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic.

Though he feels that his life will be complete at age 75, he nevertheless does not believe in offing himself:

Since the 1990s, I have actively opposed legalizing euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide. People who want to die in one of these ways tend to suffer not from unremitting pain but from depression, hopelessness, and fear of losing their dignity and control. The people they leave behind inevitably feel they have somehow failed. The answer to these symptoms is not ending a life but getting help. I have long argued that we should focus on giving all terminally ill people a good, compassionate death—not euthanasia or assisted suicide for a tiny minority.

He states that he prefers a purely passive approach. He will accept only palliative care and not any attempt to cure any disease after 75.

The American immortal desperately wants to believe in the “compression of morbidity.” ... The claim is that with longer life, an ever smaller proportion of our lives will be spent in a state of decline. ...

It is true that compared with their counterparts 50 years ago, seniors today are less disabled and more mobile. But over recent decades, increases in longevity seem to have been accompanied by increases in disability—not decreases.

Thus becoming real-life Struldbrugs, long-lived but decrepit.

As Crimmins puts it, over the past 50 years, health care hasn’t slowed the aging process so much as it has slowed the dying process. And, as my father demonstrates, the contemporary dying process has been elongated. Death usually results from the complications of chronic illness—heart disease, cancer, emphysema, stroke, Alzheimer’s, diabetes.

The problem is that we've slowed down or stopped a lot of diseases but we have not slowed down aging.

Half of people 80 and older with functional limitations. A third of people 85 and older with Alzheimer’s. That still leaves many, many elderly people who have escaped physical and mental disability. ...

Even if we aren’t demented, our mental functioning deteriorates as we grow older. ...

It is not just mental slowing. We literally lose our creativity.

It's been studied in detail.

Dean Keith Simonton, at the University of California at Davis, a luminary among researchers on age and creativity, synthesized numerous studies to demonstrate a typical age-creativity curve: creativity rises rapidly as a career commences, peaks about 20 years into the career, at about age 40 or 45, and then enters a slow, age-related decline.

• First: 26
• Best: 39
• Last: 61

One may still be able to do valuable things when one is old, like mentor younger generations.

Mentorship is hugely important. But it also illuminates a key issue with aging: the constricting of our ambitions and expectations.

As one becomes less capable, one ends up doing less-difficult things and fewer things. Unless we can slow down or reverse age-related degeneration, more people will end up becoming real-life Struldbrugs. Slowing down or reversing aging may produce problems of its own, it must be pointed out, but that's another issue.

 

[dendrast]

I'm pretty sure I'm finally getting old. I saw a Beyonce video tonight, and all I could think was, "is that ever corny?". I even know I'm not supposed to feel that way.

 

[spikepipsqueak]

A local comic said he knew he was getting old when he saw a scantily clad woman at a rock concert and his first thought was "She's going to be cold later on".

I first addressed the question of when would be a good time to call it a day when my joints all decided to let go at the age of 53.

I briefly thought that was the time.

On the other hand, I know a number of people over 80, some approaching 90, whose physical health and mental acuity are good enough to live enjoyable lives and still be of some utility to family and community, so I'm not convinced it is a good idea to aim for a number.

I can see a point in setting acceptable conditions, regardless of age, but since voluntary euthanasia still isn't freely available here it makes more sense to just live the best life I can than to worry about the potential for deterioration.

 

[southernhybrid]

I am in total agreement with Barbara E. I don't want to live past 85, and when I got my Medicare card three years ago, I realized I was old enough to die of the diseases related to old age. While I still look pretty good, exercise, eat a pretty healthy diet and am not overweight, I do have osteoarthritis in most of my joints and have been putting off knee replacement surgery for six years, due to my phobia of surgeons. I have pretty much adjusted to living in pain, but there will be a point where the pain might make life no longer enjoyable.

Old age can be a nice part of life, once you retire and start feeling like you're free. It's a great time of life if you have a very supportive long term partner like I do, but once one of us dies, it might be a tragic, lonely, awful time of life. For those who have lots of good friends, especially younger friends, it can also be a very interesting, satisfying time of life. For those without family, it can be devastating. I've seen it when I worked as a home health nurse and also in long term care. Once dumped into a facility, it's quite common for friends and family to stop visiting on a regular basis. While some people adjust, others are just existing and waiting to die.

So, why do I choose the age of 85 as a preferred end point? My reason is due to the extreme rise of dementia that happens once you reach that age. Sure, there are people that live independently into their 90s and beyond, but those folks are rare. My mother is 92 and she was sharp as could be until the age of 89. Now she can't remember anything for more than a few minutes, sometimes a few seconds. She can't walk independently anymore, and she used to walk several miles almost every day. She is lucky in that she lives with my sister. She has told me in her more lucid moments that she wants to die, and sees no purpose in being alive. I get that. We're all gonna die, so why not die when you're still able to be a part of the world, enjoy socially engaging with others, enjoy hobbies, reading or something that gives you a purpose?

I may eventually break down and have my knees fixed, but I will continue to refuse most aggressive treatments, and needless tests and procedures. I want to enjoy the time that I have left, but once I'm no longer independent, I will let nature take its course. That doesn't mean that I won't keep getting my flu shots or other basic preventative tests and medications. it just means that I would likely refuse life saving things like for example, dialysis if my kidneys were to fail. or coronary bypass surgery, etc. We don't need voluntary euthanasia if we can be admitted to a good hospice, once our life expectancy is very short. A good hospice team will relieve suffering and help us go gently out of life. That is my wish when the time comes.

To sum it up. I'm not afraid of death, but I am afraid of losing my independence.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't think we can set an age on it because everybody's different and medical technology is advancing.

However, the doctors can keep us alive longer than it's worth being alive. In many cases all they can do is prolong the suffering. No thanks.

 

[rousseau]

There was a time when I thought that as long as I was always mentally sharp I'd enjoy my life, but lately I'm starting to see how isolation could become a real problem in old age, sans partner.

I used to have the ability to be alone pretty contently, but these days I'm definitely happiest when I'm around friends and family.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There was a time when I thought that as long as I was always mentally sharp I'd enjoy my life, but lately I'm starting to see how isolation could become a real problem in old age, sans partner.

I used to have the ability to be alone pretty contently, but these days I'm definitely happiest when I'm around friends and family.

This, also. Life is pretty empty without love.

 

[bilby]

Deja Vu?

https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?2648-I-don-t-want-to-be-a-Struldbrug

 

[BH]

When my dad was dying of cancer he worried about pain. It never developed but he went through the mental changes that often occur in people knowing they are going to die and just did not worry about it. He got where he would not eat or drink much and when the time came he was ready, even halfway looking forward to it. Me, Mom, sister, and brother in law were in the room with him and he said kind words in turn to each of us and we each said kind things back, then he died.

 

[southernhybrid]

There was a time when I thought that as long as I was always mentally sharp I'd enjoy my life, but lately I'm starting to see how isolation could become a real problem in old age, sans partner.

I used to have the ability to be alone pretty contently, but these days I'm definitely happiest when I'm around friends and family.

Being socially engaged is supposed to be one of the more important things that help older adults live longer and enjoy life more. I know there are some people who don't seem to need much social contact, but they are not typical.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Though the Struldbrugs spend the first half-century or so of their lives in normal fashion, after that, they suffer the decrepitude of old age, unloved by the rest of Luggnaggian society, unable to enjoy their lives very much, and wishing that they could die.

I was imagining this when I wrote a Gulliver fanfiction, Blackadder's travels.



BLACKADDER: Excuse me, gentlemen, I'm trying to find some unique attraction your population is supposed to have? Something of interest to travelers?

OldFart#1: I believe you might be referring to the Struldbruggs.

BLACKADDER: And what are the Struldbruggs?

OldFart#2: Immortals.

BLACKADDER: Really? 'Never to be forgotten' immortals, or 'not fearing death' immortals, or actual 'live forever or die trying' immortals?

OldFart#3: The last, as it happens.

BLACKADDER: Interesting. And how is this achieved? Potions? Elixirs? A steady regimen of healthful activities while avoiding the draining rigors of bathing, washing or fresh air?

OldFart#1: No. By some strange chance, some of our children are born with a red dot on their forehead, and they live normally except for the fact that they never die.

BLACKADDER: 'Live normally?' I see. Come along, Baldrick, we're going back. (they start walking along the street back to the barque)

BALDRICK: But sir, we haven't seen the straddlebugs.

BLACKADDER: And what on Earth makes you think you'd want to?

BALDRICK: Oh, just think about it, sir, about what immortals might tell us.

BLACKADDER: Yes, their 'things were better then' stories would rival the Book of Genesis for outrageously tall tales.

BALDRICK: But their observations of the human condition would stretch across generations.

BLACKADDER: So did Grandmother MacAdder's, and all she ever talked about was how much her corns hurt in 1703, how hard her knee was wrenched in 1697 and just how many times she fell down the stairs in 1692. The Human Condition is misery, Baldrick, and anyone with a clear view of it is going to be miserable.

BALDRICK: Why are you so down on immortality, sir? Why don't you see it as a wonderful opportunity?

BLACKADDER: Because it's not something they aspire or conspire to, Baldrick, it's just something Nature does to them. And Nature is not our friend.

BALDRICK: Nature gives us a supreme intellect!

BLACKADDER: Right. (Stops, holds up both hands, one finger raised in each) I'm planning to poke you in the eye with one of these fingers, Baldrick. If your supreme intellect can determine which one it is, I won't do it.

BALDRICK: Um...(finger waves between BLACKADDER's hands) ...uh... (points) THAT one?

BLACKADDER: Wrong. (pokes both fingers in BALDRICK's eyes) So, what does that tell us?

BALDRICK: That your intellect is superior.

BLACKADDER: And Nature...?

BALDRICK: Hates me.

BLACKADDER: Excellent. Now, off we go. (resumes walking)

BALDRICK: But don't you want to see what it's like to live with an endless possibility of tomorrows? I mean, you could invest a shilling, at one percent interest, and live to see it become a million pounds.

BLACKADDER: Which, with inflation, would be worth about tuppence by then. One p after taxes, of course.

BALDRICK: Well, what about finding a companion among other immortals? Someone to share your life with for eternity?

BLACKADDER: Baldrick, the only relationship I've ever had that lasted more than three years has been with you. The prospect of spending eternity with you would drive me mad.

BALDRICK: But if there were others like you...

BLACKADDER: Ever read Chaucer, Baldrick? For all that the man was allegedly writing in English, his words are particularly opaque in meaning. Languages change over time. It wouldn't be long before anyone born of this age would end up isolated from society by the inability of anyone older or younger to understand him.

BALDRICK: But you could learn the new language, being there as it formed.

BLACKADDER: Think of the old people you know, Baldrick. Do you think they're more likely to learn new things and new ways of living and philosophy, as the conventions of their time fade into history, or are they more likely to just bitch about how everything changes, and for the worse?

BALDRICK: I believe I take your meaning, sir.

BLACKADDER: The body ages, Baldrick, and the mind, firmly rooted inside, rots along with it. The aspect of living for eternity is worse than becoming a haunt. Ghosts seem to fade after 400 years; immortality would be an endlessly accumulating series of decline and deterioration, ending with the purest form of misery known to mankind.

BALDRICK: What's that?

BLACKADDER: An unrequited death wish.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I don't think we can set an age on it because everybody's different and medical technology is advancing.

However, the doctors can keep us alive longer than it's worth being alive. In many cases all they can do is prolong the suffering. No thanks.

Exactly. There's a difference between prolonging life and prolonging death.

 

[Tharmas]

This is an issue I think about a lot. My dad lived to be 89 and was very sharp until the day he died of a stroke, for example, reading books on number theory. My mother lived to be 103 and enjoyed her life up to the end (died in her sleep at home).

So I’ve got good genes, as they say.

Except…I’ve got a congenital nerve disease which is slowly crippling me, and I mean very slowly. Twenty four years ago when we bought our house I was able to climb ladders and crawl through the cramped attic spaces and do all the fix up we needed. Today I can’t do any of that, and I walk with a cane or a walker.

I can actually walk unassisted and do around the house but I use the tools in unfamiliar places. Without them I fall fairly frequently (every few weeks) and when I fall I can’t get up on my own. Stairs or even most steps are now very difficult for me and we’ve installed a chair lift on the staircase at home. Eventually I will be in a wheel chair, and, if I live long enough, will require a ventilator to breathe.

However, I am not a Struldbrug yet, and make no predictions. I am currently as creative as I’ve ever been and am carrying out a number of projects that I’m excited about.

The hard part is, it’s all a great unknown. No specialist can tell me how long I have before I’m totally incapacitated, or even what the progression will be. And it’s all so slow. My degeneration is measured in years, not weeks or months. So it’s something I think about on those nights when sleep eludes me.

 

[Tharmas]

Here is a description of Swift's own aging:

"Definite symptoms of madness appeared in 1738. In 1741, guardians were appointed to take care of his affairs and watch lest in his outbursts of violence he should do himself harm. In 1742, he suffered great pain from the inflammation of his left eye, which swelled to the size of an egg; five attendants had to restrain him from tearing out his eye. He went a whole year without uttering a word."

...

Then on 19 October 1745, Swift, at nearly 80, died.

Years ago someone told me that in that final year of Swift's life, when he didn't speak and had (I am assuming) suffered a stroke, his servants, to whom he had been very harsh, seated him in his study and charged admission for onlookers to view him. I have been unable to verify that story.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't think we can set an age on it because everybody's different and medical technology is advancing.

However, the doctors can keep us alive longer than it's worth being alive. In many cases all they can do is prolong the suffering. No thanks.

Exactly. There's a difference between prolonging life and prolonging death.

A good way to put it.

 

[James Brown]

I think about Stephen Hawking.

If ever there was a person is his twenties who could say, "Screw this, I'm done," it would be him.

 

[southernhybrid]

I think about Stephen Hawking.

If ever there was a person is his twenties who could say, "Screw this, I'm done," it would be him.

He was an amazing person. I don't think many of us could have managed to live such a purposeful life while dealing with such a severe disability.

 

[Coleman Smith]

At 79 I recognise that isolation can become a friend because all my family members except my wife are dead and all my friends are either dead or in other states.

We try to stay busy with a routine.

I am a 7 day a week gym rat and that seems to help.

My hobby is posting a political web site and pissing off the conservatives.

 

[southernhybrid]

One of my hobbies is posting on sites where doctors and nurses can post because I like to tell doctors what I really think about their paternalistic, obnoxious, often greedy behaviors. I don't do that to the nice ones, only to the jerks. I consider it payback after having to deal with them during my long career as a nurse. I verbally slapped a few of them yesterday and it really felt good.

I agree about exercise. I will be leaving the house in about 20 minutes to do the 45 minute aerobic workout with a bunch of other older women. Men are welcome but they usually drop out because they can't seem to keep up with us. My husband takes a four mile walk with one of our little dogs every day, weather permitting. Hopefully, that will keep us healthy, at least for awhile.