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Origins Of Christianity

doesn’t prove divine authorship or inspiration
There has been no attempt to prove either divine authorship or inspiration either on the part of Paul or in this thread. Why are you and others so very obsessed with such a proof or an attempt at such a proof? And I imagine that you know enough to realize that a response along the lines of (some) theists say or think it is proven is utterly beside the point, especially given that proof of divine authorship or inspiration is neither attempted nor claimed by Paul or in this thread. Justified by faith, anyone? So, again, what is with this obsession?

In any event, logic has shown that the impossibility of divine inspiration has not been proven. Shouldn't that be reason enough for being rid of the obsession?

Invoking God’s hypothetical concerns adds nothing to the historical case.
What historical case? The fact that the statements attributed to Paul are from the past does not make this an historical case. This is very much a contemporary issue. It has to do with the process of individual human understanding, a process not shown to be restricted out of necessity to considerations in terms of empirical evidence.
 
There has been no attempt to prove either divine authorship or inspiration either on the part of Paul or in this thread. Why are you and others so very obsessed with such a proof or an attempt at such a proof? And I imagine that you know enough to realize that a response along the lines of (some) theists say or think it is proven is utterly beside the point, especially given that proof of divine authorship or inspiration is neither attempted nor claimed by Paul or in this thread. Justified by faith, anyone? So, again, what is with this obsession?

In any event, logic has shown that the impossibility of divine inspiration has not been proven. Shouldn't that be reason enough for being rid of the obsession?

The reason this keeps coming up isn’t because we’re trying to prove divine inspiration—it’s because Paul himself made a positive claim about the origin of his message (“not of human origin”), and any claim about origin demands scrutiny. In rational inquiry, the burden of proof lies squarely on whoever asserts a departure from normal human processes. Extraordinary claims—like a message bypassing human composition—require extraordinary evidence. Pointing out that you haven’t proven divine inspiration doesn’t neutralize the obligation to show why it should be accepted. Skepticism isn’t an “obsession,” it’s standard practice whenever someone asserts an unseen cause. And the fact that you can’t prove the impossibility of divine inspiration doesn’t entitle us to grant it as true by default; absence of disproof is not evidence of truth.

What historical case? The fact that the statements attributed to Paul are from the past does not make this an historical case. This is very much a contemporary issue. It has to do with the process of individual human understanding, a process not shown to be restricted out of necessity to considerations in terms of empirical evidence.

It is undeniably a historical case: Paul’s letters were written, copied, edited, and canonized in the first century. Questions about their origin belong to the discipline of historical-critical scholarship. Yes, individual understanding today is relevant—but that process doesn’t rewrite the past. When Paul declared his gospel “not of human origin,” he anchored that claim in a specific time, place, and community. We examine surviving manuscripts, variant readings, and cultural context to assess how that message actually emerged. Understanding may involve more than empirical data, but establishing what happened in history does not—and cannot—proceed without evidence. To treat a claim about origin as purely “contemporary” abandons the only tools we have for investigating authorship and transmission.

NHC
 
Paul himself made a positive claim about the origin of his message (“not of human origin”), and any claim about origin demands scrutiny.
I expect Paul would agree that all claims, all statements of any sort, and not just those about origin are - or should be - open to scrutiny and doubt.

In rational inquiry, the burden of proof lies squarely on whoever asserts a departure from normal human processes.
A statement open to scrutiny and doubt can have no burden of proof if that statement is not asserted as having been proven and if that statement is not a premise to an argument.

The burden of proof is here a custom hiding a canard. It tries to “justify” restricted (or lack of) charity on the part of the interlocutor. Ethical love for the other has no place for that custom/canard.

Extraordinary claims—like a message bypassing human composition—require extraordinary evidence.
Irrelevant here since there is no claim that human composition has not occurred.

Pointing out that you haven’t proven divine inspiration doesn’t neutralize the obligation to show why it should be accepted.
Neither acceptance nor understanding of the message depends on accepting that the message was inspired. That should help you understand why there was no insistence or argument for the acceptance of divine inspiration.

And the fact that you can’t prove the impossibility of divine inspiration doesn’t entitle us to grant it as true by default; absence of disproof is not evidence of truth.
Even if it is true that the message was divinely inspired, that is irrelevant to the matter of understanding.

CONCLUSION: The obsession with the lack of proof for divine inspiration is a canard by which the obsessed assert - without saying - that they have no need of response-ability towards the other(s) with whom the obsessed engage.

That is an ethical stance for an in fact minimized interest in understanding the other person(s). So be it.

It is undeniably a historical case:
Being historically interesting does not make the issue an historical issue inasmuch as understanding the issue does not depend on knowing the history.
To treat a claim about origin as purely “contemporary” abandons the only tools we have for investigating authorship and transmission.
Reiterating yet again: Whether or not the message was divinely inspired is immaterial to the development of an understanding of the message.
 
A lot of words that do not say much about the origins of Christianity as was passed own to today.

The usual Christian arguments stemming from an assumption the gospels and NT arr all true.

The words of Jesus are true without any way to prove it.

The rest of theology is handwashing and dancing around the issue.
 
I expect Paul would agree that all claims, all statements of any sort, and not just those about origin are - or should be - open to scrutiny and doubt.

Exactly—Paul insists on testing every claim with reason. He wouldn’t exempt the claim of a supernatural origin from the same standards he applies to ethics, theology or church practice. If “not of human origin” is meant to stand apart, it must meet the very scrutiny Paul demands elsewhere in his letters.

A statement open to scrutiny and doubt can have no burden of proof if that statement is not asserted as having been proven and if that statement is not a premise to an argument.

The burden of proof is here a custom hiding a canard. It tries to “justify” restricted (or lack of) charity on the part of the interlocutor. Ethical love for the other has no place for that custom/canard.

Burden of proof isn’t a charitable failing—it’s the cornerstone of honest dialogue. Any claim that introduces an extraordinary cause (a divine source) shifts the obligation onto the claimant to supply evidence. Without that, discussion collapses into mere assertion, not mutual understanding.

Irrelevant here since there is no claim that human composition has not occurred.

But Paul’s declaration “not of human origin” directly implies that normal human composition is insufficient. Admitting human effort at every other level but exempting that one claim contradicts the rest of his argument. You cannot have it both ways.

Neither acceptance nor understanding of the message depends on accepting that the message was inspired. That should help you understand why there was no insistence or argument for the acceptance of divine inspiration.

True—one can grasp or even agree with Paul’s theology without buying a supernatural source. Yet evaluating a message’s truth requires examining its provenance. Comprehension and validation are distinct: understanding what Paul says doesn’t validate how he claims to have received it.

Even if it is true that the message was divinely inspired, that is irrelevant to the matter of understanding.

CONCLUSION: The obsession with the lack of proof for divine inspiration is a canard by which the obsessed assert - without saying - that they have no need of response-ability towards the other(s) with whom the obsessed engage.

That is an ethical stance for an in fact minimized interest in understanding the other person(s). So be it.

Inspiration may be irrelevant to personal insight, but it’s central to the text’s authority claim. Historical evidence of thousands of textual variants and editorial insertions makes a faultless divine transmission implausible. Seeking proof of origin is not a refusal to engage—it’s a rigorous check on truth claims.

Being historically interesting does not make the issue an historical issue inasmuch as understanding the issue does not depend on knowing the history.

Determining a document’s origin is by definition historical. The processes of composition, copying and canonization all lie in the past. Ignoring those facts removes any reliable basis for judging the gospel’s authenticity or authority.

Reiterating yet again: Whether or not the message was divinely inspired is immaterial to the development of an understanding of the message.

Personal insight can emerge independent of claims about divine origin, but belief in inspiration changes how one applies, interprets and enforces the message. Assessing that claim remains essential to distinguish tradition from truth. A message’s power to move hearts doesn’t exempt it from factual investigation.

NHC
 
I think if you are going to talk about the origins of Christian mythology, it's a mistake not to discuss other mythologies that predate or were contemporaneous with Christianity.
I don't think there is a mistake, as you are trying to portray above. Although, this could be an interesting topic in itself - It's not really necessary to discuss mythologies (alternative gods to the Bible-God), since, I don't follow the line or the same perspetive notion as you're putting it above, that's suggesting "Christianity is mythology".

As I am putting it in context: The Genesis narrative was written long before Christ, and also of course, the contemporaneus mythologies to Christianity. In the beginning - Genesis, illustrates the beginning of creation - a time of events before the appearances of all the 'mythical' gods.


For example:
  • Heracles – A demi-god born of Zeus and a mortal woman, Heracles is a Greek figure whose life includes divine parentage, suffering, heroic trials, and eventual apotheosis (becoming a god). The idea of a god interacting with a mortal to produce a special son resonates with the narrative of Jesus’ virgin birth and divine mission.
  • Prometheus – While not a demi-god, he was a titan who suffers on behalf of humanity. He defies the higher gods to bring fire (a symbol of knowledge and salvation) to mankind and is punished severely for it. There are parallels between this and Christ's sacrificial role in bringing "light" (spiritual truth) to humans.
  • Mithras – The Persian-Roman god Mithras was venerated in a mystery religion that predated or was contemporaneous with early Christianity. Mithras was associated with salvation, rebirth, and a communal meal involving bread and wine—rituals with striking similarities to Christian Eucharist practices.
  • Osiris – Osiris dies, is dismembered, and is later resurrected with the help of his wife Isis. He becomes a symbol of rebirth and the afterlife, with clear thematic connections to Christ's death and resurrection narrative.
  • Krishna – Though very different in cultural context, Krishna is a divine incarnation who comes to Earth, performs miracles, and teaches about dharma (righteousness). His story includes a miraculous birth, divine mission, and cultic devotion, all of which invite comparison to Jesus.

The perspective alternative to yours: The writings of the NT i.e. Christianity... is just a continuation (fullfillment) of the Old Testament that starts with Genesis.

It seems there was both a cultural appetite for savior figures and a tendency to borrow from existing religious motifs—divine or semi-divine beings who could bridge the human and the divine, offering redemption, wisdom, or salvation. These figures often became the centerpieces of emerging cults or belief systems. Of these, Mithraism stands out: its rituals, moral teachings, and symbolic meals bore striking resemblances to early Christianity. It wasn’t just a thematic overlap—it was a competing religion. Ultimately, as Christianity gained institutional backing, Mithraism was stamped out, its memory largely erased by the ascendant Christian order.

Similar to my previous response above...

...Salvation is also in the Old Testament! The concept of salvation carrys into the New testament! Mithras came after the creation events that was made by the biblical God. I suppose adding to the context.. the first commandment would suitably apply to Mythras.
 
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Learner

Discussion of differing religious views until modern dmocracies withn civil rights was suppressed bty Chrtianity. In colonial America you took risks preaching contrary prevailing theology.

Knowledge of gods and mythologies that predate Judaism and Christianity and seeing the commonality of religions is anathema to the Christian narrative of exclusivity.

To the OP Christianity as you have it began with the Council of Nicaea after which all competing views were suppressed. Documents burned.

What Christianity is was decided by politics not by who a wanderings Jewish HJ may have been.

The books of the Christian bible were selected. Others destroyed.

The ancient Hebrews went hrough an evolution of gods and beliefs.

Knowedge is dngerous, it can chip away at what you fervently believe.
 
doesn’t prove divine authorship or inspiration
There has been no attempt to prove either divine authorship or inspiration either on the part of Paul or in this thread. Why are you and others so very obsessed with such a proof or an attempt at such a proof? And I imagine that you know enough to realize that a response along the lines of (some) theists say or think it is proven is utterly beside the point, especially given that proof of divine authorship or inspiration is neither attempted nor claimed by Paul or in this thread. Justified by faith, anyone? So, again, what is with this obsession?

In any event, logic has shown that the impossibility of divine inspiration has not been proven. Shouldn't that be reason enough for being rid of the obsession?

Invoking God’s hypothetical concerns adds nothing to the historical case.
What historical case? The fact that the statements attributed to Paul are from the past does not make this an historical case. This is very much a contemporary issue. It has to do with the process of individual human understanding, a process not shown to be restricted out of necessity to considerations in terms of empirical evidence.


Paul stated that what he preached was not the work of man. That of course is not proof of divine inspiration, but it is his claim. A claim that appears to be falsified by his use of the works of man in the form of Greek Philosophy.

One or the other must be false, both can't be true.....and we have evidence for his use of the 'work of man.'
 
Burden of proof isn’t a charitable failing—it’s the cornerstone of honest dialogue. Any claim that introduces an extraordinary cause (a divine source) shifts the obligation onto the claimant to supply evidence. Without that, discussion collapses into mere assertion, not mutual understanding.
When honest dialogue and mutual understanding are the goal, no burden is exclusively assigned.

As exclusive assignment, the burden of proof is (to put it as charitably as possible) an impediment to honest dialogue and the furtherance of understanding.

When understanding an interlocutor is the goal/interest, there is actually no need to assign exclusively - and especially explicitly - a burden of proof to any other person. Of course, proof is not necessary for understanding.

Invoking this burden of proof is performative. It is incompatible with genuine dialogue and the pursuit of understanding. Whether regarded as a failing or not, that burden assignment is not charitable.

Inspiration may be irrelevant to personal insight, but it’s central to the text’s authority claim. Historical evidence of thousands of textual variants and editorial insertions makes a faultless divine transmission implausible. Seeking proof of origin is not a refusal to engage—it’s a rigorous check on truth claims.
Understanding does not depend on proof; therefore, in most discussions, the demand for proof either indicates that the engagement was disingenuous from the beginning, or the demand for proof indicates the termination point for what had been actually genuine engagement and only continues as disingenuous from the time of the demand (with engagement here to be understood as an attempt to have honest dialogue for the purpose of achieving understanding).

There has been no claim of faultlessness, even by Paul, and that could be because he was aware that neither his message nor his goal depend on faultless transmission.

A claim of authority is not a claim of faultlessness. In order to understand authority, it is necessary to take account of this from Matthew: “When Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes, their teachers of the law."

Such authority as this does not prove, does not intend to prove, and it never demands. I am unaware of any evidence to suggest that you have taken account of such an authority.

Determining a document’s origin is by definition historical.
The actuality of inspiration and authority is not a matter of any document, text, or image.
 
When honest dialogue and mutual understanding are the goal, no burden is exclusively assigned.

As exclusive assignment, the burden of proof is (to put it as charitably as possible) an impediment to honest dialogue and the furtherance of understanding.

When understanding an interlocutor is the goal/interest, there is actually no need to assign exclusively - and especially explicitly - a burden of proof to any other person. Of course, proof is not necessary for understanding.

Invoking this burden of proof is performative. It is incompatible with genuine dialogue and the pursuit of understanding. Whether regarded as a failing or not, that burden assignment is not charitable.

Demanding evidence isn’t a show of bad faith; it’s the bedrock of any discussion that aims for truth rather than empty rhetoric. If one party asserts an extraordinary source—divine inspiration—while refusing to back it up, the listener has no common ground to parse meaning or distinguish fact from fiction. Genuine understanding arises when claims meet scrutiny. Without that, you’re left with undisprovable dogma, not dialogue.


Understanding does not depend on proof; therefore, in most discussions, the demand for proof either indicates that the engagement was disingenuous from the beginning, or the demand for proof indicates the termination point for what had been actually genuine engagement and only continues as disingenuous from the time of the demand (with engagement here to be understood as an attempt to have honest dialogue for the purpose of achieving understanding).

There has been no claim of faultlessness, even by Paul, and that could be because he was aware that neither his message nor his goal depend on faultless transmission.

A claim of authority is not a claim of faultlessness. In order to understand authority, it is necessary to take account of this from Matthew: “When Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes, their teachers of the law."

Such authority as this does not prove, does not intend to prove, and it never demands. I am unaware of any evidence to suggest that you have taken account of such an authority.

Requiring proof doesn’t mark the end of genuine exchange; it marks where unsupported assertion ends. Every field—science, history, law—relies on evidence to separate reliable claims from wishful thinking. If you refuse to supply any support for a claim that your gospel bypasses human composition, you force the conversation onto faith alone. That isn’t honest engagement; it’s an admission that the claim can’t survive scrutiny.

Paul explicitly insisted his revelation came directly from Christ, independent of human mediation. Yet every surviving manuscript shows thousands of alterations—additions, omissions, harmonizations—none of which Paul could have predicted. If inspiration doesn’t guarantee integrity, it adds nothing over ordinary human authorship. A message that claims divine backing but admits fallible transmission collapses into ordinary historical literature.

Charismatic authority—whether in a synagogue or a TED Talk—doesn’t attest to supernatural origin. Matthew’s depiction serves the evangelist’s agenda: to cast Jesus as greater than the scribes. It reflects communal values, not objective proof. If mere rhetorical force conferred divine status, every compelling speaker would claim deity. Authority in speech is a human phenomenon, not a credible indicator of divine inspiration.

The “authority” Matthew attributes to Jesus is itself a theological claim made by a community writing decades after the fact. It describes the reaction of crowds within the Gospel narrative—not an independently corroborated phenomenon. That passage was composed by anonymous authors who shaped stories to bolster their own beliefs. It cannot serve as neutral evidence of divine inspiration; it merely reflects the evangelist’s agenda.

If you lean on internal claims of authority to validate the text, you’re engaging in circular reasoning—using Scripture to prove Scripture. Genuine proof requires external attestation or independent verification, none of which exists for Matthew’s portrayal of authority. In every respect, this “authority” remains an internal persuasion tactic, not a factual demonstration of supernatural origin.

The actuality of inspiration and authority is not a matter of any document, text, or image.

We only know the gospel through texts and their history. If inspiration leaves no imprint—no linguistic anomaly, no unbroken chain of untampered manuscripts, no unique insight beyond human creativity—then it remains an unfounded assertion. Every time we inspect the documents, we find human editors at work. Claims untethered from that record are empty. Without documentary evidence, “actuality” becomes mere wordplay, not a factual claim.

NHC
 

Demanding evidence isn’t a show of bad faith; it’s the bedrock of any discussion that aims for truth rather than empty rhetoric. If one party asserts an extraordinary source—divine inspiration—while refusing to back it up, the listener has no common ground to parse meaning or distinguish fact from fiction. Genuine understanding arises when claims meet scrutiny. Without that, you’re left with undisprovable dogma, not dialogue.
Exactly, times 5000. Well said. Ingersoll said it this way: "Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit tenant for the mind of an honest man."



We only know the gospel through texts and their history. If inspiration leaves no imprint—no linguistic anomaly, no unbroken chain of untampered manuscripts, no unique insight beyond human creativity—then it remains an unfounded assertion. Every time we inspect the documents, we find human editors at work. Claims untethered from that record are empty. Without documentary evidence, “actuality” becomes mere wordplay, not a factual claim.

NHC
I've known Christians who not only asserted that scripture was inspired by God, in some obscure, undefined fashion, but that the church councils that compiled the lists of accepted scripture must also have been inspired to make the right choices. If they didn't have divine authority visited on the compilers, their narrative of inspired scripture wouldn't, for them, make sense. (Even though they appeared to make up the 'inspired compilers' concept out of their own imaginations.) So their god is a deity who:
> inspired the writing of "his" book
> inspired the church fathers who anthologized the scriptures
> failed to insure that the original manuscripts survived to the present day
> failed to inspire the scribes to produce flawless, perfectly concordant copies, so that no variations could infect the texts
> has omniscience, and therefore knew that his scriptures would inspire endless debate and wildly varying interpretations, and that the disagreements would cause the believers to vigorously murder one another, using torture, hanging, arrows, and fire.
 
Demanding evidence isn’t a show of bad faith
Putting aside considerations into the nature of evidence, wishing for or even demanding evidence is not identical to assigning the burden of proof.

When the goal is to understand an other person, when the goal is to understand the understanding of an other person, whatever are the reasons the other person has for thinking as he or she does are discoverable during the process of engagement even without a demand for evidence that one's own self would deem acceptable.

Understanding is achievable without demand.

A demand can have the effect of - or be the result of the - closing off the demanding self. Of course, in the alternative, a demand can just as well indicate the limit of the demanding person's current ability to understand despite being as open as that person can currently be.

If one party asserts an extraordinary source—divine inspiration—while refusing to back it up, the listener has no common ground to parse meaning or distinguish fact from fiction.
I have no idea whether or how very extraordinary divine inspiration is or can be even if it is ever actual. I do know that today, in our culture, we regard such inspiration as rare even if it is ever actual. However, given a different time and/or culture, that sort of inspiration can be regarded as occurring more often than we think it does even if we allow or assume that it does occur.

If extra-human (even divine) inspiration was regarded as not all that uncommon and, therefore, not extraordinary in Paul's time and in the culture(s) in which he taught, then that could go a long way towards explaining why he would not bother with "proving" that he had been divinely inspired. Even so, the claim that the inspiration was not of human origin is functionally a fact of no real significance to the message. "You will know them by their fruits" makes the very point that it is not necessary to know or prove the source, because the importance, the understanding, and the importance of the understanding resides apart from the source as well as the speaker.

If you refuse to supply any support for a claim that your gospel bypasses human composition, you force the conversation onto faith alone.
First of all, the claim is not that the message "bypasses human composition".

Secondly, the alone in "faith alone" is incorrect.

Kierkegaard says, “one must believe in love; otherwise one will never become aware that it exists” or can exist. Even if that belief is an instance of faith, since it is "the fruits" that most matter, the conversation could or would pursue the characterizing of that love ethics. And that conversation would not be conducted in terms of what evidence is there that there is love as characterized or hypothesized; rather, the conversation would be more a matter of imagining how that ethical love might be made actualized.

This is to say that common ground can most certainly be established even if one of the conversing persons claims to have a belief in love that was divinely inspired but which inspiration cannot be evidenced or proven.

That isn’t honest engagement; it’s an admission that the claim can’t survive scrutiny.
It is certainly open to scrutiny. There is no reason to think that an understanding along the lines of my remarks immediately above cannot survive scrutiny. But anyone can give it a shot.
 
Putting aside considerations into the nature of evidence, wishing for or even demanding evidence is not identical to assigning the burden of proof.

When the goal is to understand an other person, when the goal is to understand the understanding of an other person, whatever are the reasons the other person has for thinking as he or she does are discoverable during the process of engagement even without a demand for evidence that one's own self would deem acceptable.

Understanding is achievable without demand.

A demand can have the effect of - or be the result of the - closing off the demanding self. Of course, in the alternative, a demand can just as well indicate the limit of the demanding person's current ability to understand despite being as open as that person can currently be.

If you insist on demanding evidence, you’ve implicitly placed the onus on the claimant to provide it. That is precisely what “burden of proof” describes. You cannot cherrypick semantics to avoid responsibility for backing your own assertions. Either you supply substantiation or concede that your claim stands on nothing but assertion.

Uncovering motives helps reveal why someone believes, but it doesn’t confirm that the belief corresponds to reality. You can empathize with Paul’s psychology without accepting his divine-origin claim. Genuine understanding of content and origin are separate tasks: one is psychological, the other historical and factual.

You can understand what someone is saying while still recognizing that their claim may be false or unfounded. Comprehension of the message’s structure and logic does not equate to validation of its truth. Ignoring this distinction leaves no way to distinguish between accurate knowledge and mere rhetoric.

Requesting justification isn’t “closing off”; it’s an invitation to illuminate. If no amount of openness yields clarity because the other refuses to produce reasons, that refusal itself is a failure of understanding. Claiming that demands are inherently hostile is a tactic to dodge accountability, not a genuine path to comprehension.

I have no idea whether or how very extraordinary divine inspiration is or can be even if it is ever actual. I do know that today, in our culture, we regard such inspiration as rare even if it is ever actual. However, given a different time and/or culture, that sort of inspiration can be regarded as occurring more often than we think it does even if we allow or assume that it does occur.

If extra-human (even divine) inspiration was regarded as not all that uncommon and, therefore, not extraordinary in Paul's time and in the culture(s) in which he taught, then that could go a long way towards explaining why he would not bother with "proving" that he had been divinely inspired. Even so, the claim that the inspiration was not of human origin is functionally a fact of no real significance to the message. "You will know them by their fruits" makes the very point that it is not necessary to know or prove the source, because the importance, the understanding, and the importance of the understanding resides apart from the source as well as the speaker.

Cultural frequency has no bearing on whether any individual instance is true. Legends of frequent prophecy in antiquity don’t validate Paul’s own claim. Each assertion must stand on its own merits and evidence, regardless of how commonplace similar claims might have been in other eras.

Whether Paul intended his audience to care about provenance doesn’t change the fact that his claim about origin invites historical investigation. “Fruits” may guide ethical evaluation, but it cannot substitute for proof when the assertion itself addresses an unprecedented causal mechanism. Fruit-based validation tests moral outcomes, not the historicity of source claims.

First of all, the claim is not that the message "bypasses human composition".

Secondly, the alone in "faith alone" is incorrect.

Kierkegaard says, “one must believe in love; otherwise one will never become aware that it exists” or can exist. Even if that belief is an instance of faith, since it is "the fruits" that most matter, the conversation could or would pursue the characterizing of that love ethics. And that conversation would not be conducted in terms of what evidence is there that there is love as characterized or hypothesized; rather, the conversation would be more a matter of imagining how that ethical love might be made actualized.

This is to say that common ground can most certainly be established even if one of the conversing persons claims to have a belief in love that was divinely inspired but which inspiration cannot be evidenced or proven.

Paul’s phrase “not of human origin” directly implies a break from ordinary human composition. If you reinterpret his words to avoid that implication, you undercut the plain meaning of his statement. No amount of reinterpretation can erase the obvious inference that he was claiming supra-human provenance.

Regardless of theological semantics, the point stands: when acceptance relies solely on faith in an unsubstantiated claim, it cannot engage with reasoned discourse. Invoking “faith” to bypass evidence reduces debate to circular affirmation, not mutual exploration of truth.

Ethical dialogue about love is worthwhile, but it doesn’t address the claim’s historicity or truth value. You can explore love’s application without deferring to supernatural inspiration. Mixing ethical practice with unverifiable origin stories conflates two distinct conversations: one about how to live, the other about how beliefs arise. Conflation obscures, rather than clarifies, both.

Agreeing on love ethics doesn’t validate an unverifiable origin story. You can work alongside someone who says their compassion springs from divine revelation without ever having to prove that claim. But collaboration on morality doesn’t transform a personal conviction into an objective fact. If “divine inspiration” leaves no trace in history, language or psychology, it remains a matter of private belief—useful for personal motivation, perhaps, but irrelevant to determining whether Paul’s message genuinely bypassed human creation. The ability to find common ethical ground says nothing about the truth of an extraordinary origin claim.
It is certainly open to scrutiny. There is no reason to think that an understanding along the lines of my remarks immediately above cannot survive scrutiny. But anyone can give it a shot.

Then present your criteria: outline a method by which “divine inspiration” can be distinguished from ordinary invention. Vague appeals to scrutiny without concrete standards amount to empty posturing. If you cannot specify what would count as evidence, your concept remains unfalsifiable and therefore outside the realm of serious inquiry.

NHC
 
If you insist on demanding evidence, you’ve implicitly placed the onus on the claimant to provide it. That is precisely what “burden of proof” describes.
There can be evidence without there being proof.

You cannot cherrypick semantics to avoid responsibility for backing your own assertions.
Because there can be evidence without there being proof, the semantic consideration is useful to abstract out this commonality: the demand, which in context remains unnecessary as well as commonly situationally questionable as an ethic - even if that ethic seems justified.

Nothing about Paul's message is changed by proclaiming the inspiration to be an assertion. That is because the validity of the message does not depend on the validity of the inspiration claimed.

You can empathize with Paul’s psychology without accepting his divine-origin claim.
You can also essentially agree with (even if only parts of) Paul's or anyone's message without thinking that the messenger was divinely inspired. That is because the validity of any message does not depend on the messenger or on the validity of any inspiration (claimed or not) there might have been.

Requesting justification isn’t “closing off”; it’s an invitation to illuminate.
Requesting is not demanding, and where justification is understood as the person's reasoning (because, after all, the person's reasoning is justification from that person's perspective), that justification - that reasoning - is discoverable during the process of engagement even without an explicit request for evidence or justification that one's own self would deem acceptable.

Instead of thinking in terms of responsibility as imposition, thinking can be done in terms of the response-ability of the other and the response-ability of oneself. This is a common key aspect of ethical love enacted for the sake of the other. This act is not contingent upon the ability or willingness of the other person to act in a similar fashion.

This can be recognized as being in accord with Paul's claim - his assertion - that love is patient.

If you reinterpret ... you undercut the plain meaning of his statement.
Meaning received is always meaning interpreted. From this, it follows that alleged plain (but nonetheless interpreted as plain) meaning as well as any other interpreted meaning are not sufficient bases for failing to consider alternative ways of understanding. Meaning received without interpretation - if there could be such a thing - would indicate lack in understanding, and that lack would leave the message recipient restricted to mere rote repitition of the message at best.
 
There can be evidence without there being proof.

Absolutely—evidence and proof aren’t identical. But evidence is the only basis we have for building reliable conclusions. In historical and textual scholarship, we assemble fragments, variant readings, contemporary citations and archaeological finds to form a coherent picture of how a text emerged. If you claim Paul’s gospel sprang from supernatural revelation, you must point to specific, tangible markers—unique vocabulary, unbroken manuscript transmission, external attestations—that set it apart from every other human composition. Simply asserting “there can be evidence” doesn’t meet that standard; you still need to marshal the evidence that justifies accepting an extraordinary origin.


Because there can be evidence without there being proof, the semantic consideration is useful to abstract out this commonality: the demand, which in context remains unnecessary as well as commonly situationally questionable as an ethic - even if that ethic seems justified.

Requesting evidence isn’t a moral lapse; it’s the cornerstone of any rigorous inquiry. Science, history and law all depend on evidence to distinguish fact from fiction. Branding evidence-gathering as “situationally questionable” surrenders reason to unfounded assertion. If you exempt your claim from scrutiny, you abandon any claim to intellectual integrity. Demanding substantiation for a claim that challenges normal human authorship is not only justified—it’s the only way to protect against credulity and ensure that beliefs align with reality.


Nothing about Paul's message is changed by proclaiming the inspiration to be an assertion. That is because the validity of the message does not depend on the validity of the inspiration claimed.

That is historically and functionally false. Paul’s claim of receiving the gospel by direct revelation on the Damascus road underpins every assertion he makes about authority, orthodoxy and church order. Early Christian communities only accepted his letters—and elevated them toward canon—because they believed he spoke with divine sanction. Remove that claim, and his epistles collapse into marginal moral tracts indistinguishable from other contemporary Jewish and Hellenistic writings. The content, reception and lasting influence of Paul’s theology cannot be disentangled from his asserted inspiration; it was the very foundation upon which his movement was built.

You can also essentially agree with (even if only parts of) Paul's or anyone's message without thinking that the messenger was divinely inspired. That is because the validity of any message does not depend on the messenger or on the validity of any inspiration (claimed or not) there might have been.

You’re correct that the logical soundness of Paul’s arguments stands on their own merits. Ethics, theology and pastoral advice can be assessed independently of any claim about how they originated. But historically, Paul himself did not present his teachings as mere moral essays; he insisted they flowed from a direct heavenly encounter. That self-claim shaped the early church’s acceptance of his letters and gave them authority over rival teachers. Stripping away his asserted source leaves unexplained why congregations privileged his writings when others offered similar moral guidance without that divine imprimatur.

Requesting is not demanding, and where justification is understood as the person's reasoning (because, after all, the person's reasoning is justification from that person's perspective), that justification - that reasoning - is discoverable during the process of engagement even without an explicit request for evidence or justification that one's own self would deem acceptable.

Whether labeled “request” or “demand,” asking for the grounds of an extraordinary claim is a normal part of understanding. Paul’s vision on the Damascus road was an extraordinary assertion, yet beyond referencing the vision itself, he offers no independent verification. Without pressing him to clarify how that vision reliably conveyed divine truth—as opposed to a mental experience—we’re left with circular testimony. Genuine engagement requires transparency about reasoning, not silent acquiescence to unverifiable assertions.

Instead of thinking in terms of responsibility as imposition, thinking can be done in terms of the response-ability of the other and the response-ability of oneself. This is a common key aspect of ethical love enacted for the sake of the other. This act is not contingent upon the ability or willingness of the other person to act in a similar fashion.

Ethical love invites patience and empathy, but it does not preclude accountability. In the earliest Christian debates, love propelled communities to examine teachings rigorously—Paul himself appealed to love as the motive for correction (1 Corinthians 13) even as he challenged false teachers. Response-ability entails both listening with care and pressing for clarity when a claim goes beyond ordinary experience. True love for one’s neighbor seeks not bland harmony but mutual pursuit of truth.

This can be recognized as being in accord with Paul's claim - his assertion - that love is patient.

Paul praised patience, but he also modeled it by engaging opponents with scripture and reason (Galatians 2:11–14). Patience in discourse is not the same as refraining from critical inquiry; it’s the sustained willingness to probe, question, and refine understanding over time. A call to patience becomes a shield only if it bars all meaningful challenge—yet Paul’s own practice shows patience that includes persistent debate, not abandonment of scrutiny.

Meaning received is always meaning interpreted. From this, it follows that alleged plain (but nonetheless interpreted as plain) meaning as well as any other interpreted meaning are not sufficient bases for failing to consider alternative ways of understanding. Meaning received without interpretation - if there could be such a thing - would indicate lack in understanding, and that lack would leave the message recipient restricted to mere rote repitition of the message at best.

It’s true that every act of reading engages the mind, but that doesn’t reduce interpretation to wild subjectivity or rote parroting. Ancient and modern hermeneutics employ systematic rules—grammatical analysis of Koine Greek, lexical semantics, textual criticism across manuscript traditions, and historical context—to approximate authorial intent with a high degree of reliability. Scholars don’t simply repeat words; they compare variant readings, trace a term’s usage across contemporary literature, and situate a letter within first-century rhetorical conventions. This disciplined approach yields what the ancients called the “plain sense” of a text, not mind-less repetition.


By contrast, your assertion conflates the inevitable cognitive act of decoding with interpretive relativism. In practice, exegetical methods generate convergent readings: multiple scholars independently reconstruct the same core meaning of Galatians 1:11 without collapsing into chaos. That consensus demonstrates that interpretation, when governed by objective standards, transcends rote repetition. It also exposes Paul’s claim—“not of human origin”—as a rhetorical flourish common among ancient authors asserting authority, not evidence of a miraculous bypassing of human composition. There is nothing mystical about disciplined exegesis: it remains the only way to distinguish a plain, historically grounded meaning from purely subjective responses.

NHC
 
There can be evidence without there being proof.

What?????

Indisputable truth requires indubitable evidence.

That the Earth goes around the Sun is evidenced by indisputable observation.

I was having a conversation with an Evangelical abo0ut cteation. He pointed out the endow and said 'Just look, it is obvious god created it'.

He made an argument, not a proof.

The Teleological Argument, the universe can not possibly exist without a god, therefor god exists. Theists take the existence of of universe as evidence, but it is not a proof. It i a subjective conclusion.

Without the unsubstantiated gospel story of the resurrection there would be no Chrtianity. No belief in a glorious eternal afterlife.

In high school Latin class we read Caesar' s Gallic Wars in Latin. Many independent accounts of the war.

To the OP the roots of Christianity as we have it passed down are not in a Jewish rabbi, it is in the tales spun of an HJ if htere ever was one.

My view has become that the gospels reflect a conflation of different people and events.

In modern terms a docu-drama. A story loosely based on an historical event with fictional characters and dialogue.

The old western movies and TV shows payed fast and loose with historical characters and events.

Many versions of Wyatt Earp and the Gun Fight At The OK Corral. None histrionically correct. All based on limited local newspaper report that survived.

In fact Earp lived to see the beginnings of Hollywood movies. He approached studios about making a movie on how it really was, and was rejected.

Point being the cultural conditions 2000 years ago were as complex as today. Complicated by there being no organized reporting and a large part of communication by word of mouth.

There is no way to know who an HJ may have actually been, Certainty is based on a myth.

Who knows, 2000 years from now people may believe there was a Sherlock Holmes or Luke Skywalker.

Maybe a religion of 'The Force'........

Adding that a modern docu-drame is not always based on verified events, it can be based on stories of or claims of an event.

The intro to a docu-drama can i have a disclaimer 'chracters are composites and do not reflect any real people'
 
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Requesting evidence isn’t a moral lapse
I didn't say it was. My critique regarded demanding. Requesting is far, far superior to demanding. My point about requesting is that even it is not necessary. And the point there is that the non-necessity be kept in mind when assessing the expressive capabilities of the interlocutor.

Paul’s claim of receiving the gospel by direct revelation on the Damascus road underpins every assertion he makes about authority, orthodoxy and church order.
I am going to change that word ordering so that the nature of the "authority" at issue is more precise for the purposes of your context: Paul’s claim of receiving the gospel by direct revelation on the Damascus road underpins every assertion he makes about church authority, orthodoxy and order.

I have no problem with you, um, cherrypicking from amongst Paul's statements; those are what seem to most interest you. But, the idea that the alleged Damascus road experience underpins everything he says is either too broad or too ambiguous, but a bit of a problem in any event. I just do not have the sense of Paul as a guy going around saying he had this experience therefore he is not to be questioned/challenged, and that is the impression I get from the "Damascus road underpins every assertion" notion.

Early Christian communities only accepted his letters—and elevated them toward canon—because they believed he spoke with divine sanction. Remove that claim, and his epistles collapse into marginal moral tracts indistinguishable from other contemporary Jewish and Hellenistic writings.
I do not doubt that some - maybe even many - early Christians thought "he spoke with divine sanction" whenever he spoke. That is them - but not him - saying he had this experience therefore he is not to be questioned/challenged. In any event, stripping that away does not leave his statements as indistinguishable from other writings. For instance, his notions about dietary restrictions can be presented as a reasoned extension from a combination of Jewish principles.

Paul himself did not present his teachings as mere moral essays; he insisted they flowed from a direct heavenly encounter.
That flowed from does not mean that his teachings were supposed to be regarded as not humanly composed - even if it is accepted for the sake of argument that he indeed did have a direct encounter with the divinity.

Without pressing him to clarify how that vision reliably conveyed divine truth—as opposed to a mental experience—we’re left with circular testimony.
My impression of Paul is that he was better trained as a Hellene than were the other early Christian leaders, particularly those in Judaea. I would like to have seen how engagements with the relatively Hellenistic Jews of Alexandria would have gone. Regardless, the point here is that it has long been my impression that there were very few - if any - people in Paul's circle who would have been well suited for pressing him about how he regarded any relationship between his Damascus road experience and his later thinking.

In particular, if the epistles attributed to Paul were actually written later than when Paul would have lived, then I would like to have seen an engagement between the author(s) of those epistles and Jewish scholars from around that time who were addressing the nature of prophecy, which is here to say the nature of divine inspiration.

But, none of that ever happened. Yet, it can happen now, because the issues are not settled by history.

your assertion conflates the inevitable cognitive act of decoding with interpretive relativism. ... multiple scholars independently reconstruct the same core meaning of Galatians 1:11 without collapsing into chaos. That consensus demonstrates that interpretation, when governed by objective standards, transcends rote repetition.
Or, on a different interpretation, my assertion emphasizes the importance of imagination so that considerations in terms of multiple possibilities can best be assured in the attempt to realize the most trans-perspectival understanding. That sort of understanding - not consensus - is the most worthwhile goal. Interpretation always transcends rote repetition inasmuch as interpretation necessarily involves some amount of - some sort of - understanding, and that is the case even in the absence of objective standards.
 
I didn't say it was. My critique regarded demanding. Requesting is far, far superior to demanding. My point about requesting is that even it is not necessary. And the point there is that the non-necessity be kept in mind when assessing the expressive capabilities of the interlocutor.

Whether you label it a “request” or a “demand,” seeking objective grounding for an extraordinary claim is unavoidable if you want to distinguish fact from fiction. The moment someone asserts that their gospel came through a supernatural channel, you need more than goodwill or rhetorical flair—you need evidence. Claiming that asking for it is “not necessary” doesn’t change the reality that, without some form of corroboration, you’re left with pure assertion. Epistemic rigor isn’t an optional courtesy; it’s the difference between reasoned belief and blind acceptance.



I am going to change that word ordering so that the nature of the "authority" at issue is more precise for the purposes of your context: Paul’s claim of receiving the gospel by direct revelation on the Damascus road underpins every assertion he makes about church authority, orthodoxy and order.

I have no problem with you, um, cherrypicking from amongst Paul's statements; those are what seem to most interest you. But, the idea that the alleged Damascus road experience underpins everything he says is either too broad or too ambiguous, but a bit of a problem in any event. I just do not have the sense of Paul as a guy going around saying he had this experience therefore he is not to be questioned/challenged, and that is the impression I get from the "Damascus road underpins every assertion" notion.

Fair enough—Paul didn’t literally preface every line with “as revealed on the road to Damascus.” But the substance of his apostolic legitimacy flows from that vision: every time he claims the authority to set doctrine, rebuke false teachers, or establish churches, he implicitly invokes that direct encounter. In Galatians he contrasts his gospel with “another” gospel and insists his message came “not from man but through Jesus Christ” (Galatians 1:1–2, 11–12). In 2 Corinthians he defends his ministry by pointing to “signs of a true apostle” granted through divine power rather than human persuasion. Those arguments aren’t isolated anecdotes; they form the backbone of how he justifies his teaching and how early Christians distinguished him from others. So while he didn’t shout “Damascus” on every page, that revelation remains the keystone of his entire claim to authority, orthodoxy, and church order—remove it, and the architecture of his argument collapses.

I do not doubt that some - maybe even many - early Christians thought "he spoke with divine sanction" whenever he spoke. That is them - but not him - saying he had this experience therefore he is not to be questioned/challenged. In any event, stripping that away does not leave his statements as indistinguishable from other writings. For instance, his notions about dietary restrictions can be presented as a reasoned extension from a combination of Jewish principles.

Paul’s discussion of food laws isn’t a simple extrapolation of Jewish dietary codes—it reframes the entire identity of believers around union with a crucified and risen Messiah. In Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8–10, he argues that the body is a temple of the Spirit and that love for a weaker conscience must govern practice, even if the law permits something. No preexisting Jewish or Hellenistic text intertwines eschatological new-creation theology, Christ’s atoning death, and communal ethics in the way Paul does. Remove his claim that this theology came via a direct revelation, and you have moral commentaries with no coherent center—nothing to explain why first-century congregations abandoned centuries of covenantal identity to follow his radical gospel.


That flowed from does not mean that his teachings were supposed to be regarded as not humanly composed - even if it is accepted for the sake of argument that he indeed did have a direct encounter with the divinity.

If Paul meant only that a vision spurred him, he would have described himself as a passionate teacher transformed by inspiration. Instead, he insists his gospel was delivered “not by human will nor through a man, but through Jesus Christ” (Galatians 1:1–2, 11–12) and challenges anyone—Jews or Gentiles—to match the authority of his revelation. That’s not humble rhetoric; it’s a categorical denial of ordinary human authorship. Every time he defends his apostleship, he appeals to that non-human source. Stripping away that assertion destroys the very structure of his letters, which rest on an absolute distinction between visionary commission and mere human composition.


My impression of Paul is that he was better trained as a Hellene than were the other early Christian leaders, particularly those in Judaea. I would like to have seen how engagements with the relatively Hellenistic Jews of Alexandria would have gone. Regardless, the point here is that it has long been my impression that there were very few - if any - people in Paul's circle who would have been well suited for pressing him about how he regarded any relationship between his Damascus road experience and his later thinking.

Paul didn’t hide from challenge—he recounts it in his own letters. In Galatians 2:11–14 he describes openly confronting Peter in Antioch over table fellowship, revealing that his arguments and claims were scrutinized by respected leaders. In 2 Corinthians he spends entire chapters defending his apostolic credentials against critics who accused him of being “inferior” and “crafty.” Those exchanges show Paul’s Damascus road vision never replaced debate; it became the very premise he defended with human arguments, exactly the opposite of an unchallenged, secretly divine claim.


In particular, if the epistles attributed to Paul were actually written later than when Paul would have lived, then I would like to have seen an engagement between the author(s) of those epistles and Jewish scholars from around that time who were addressing the nature of prophecy, which is here to say the nature of divine inspiration.

Seven undisputed Pauline letters date to the 50s CE—well within Paul’s lifetime—and show no hint of Alexandria-style academic debate, because early Christians met in house churches, not formal schools. Pseudonymous letters (Ephesians, Pastoral Epistles) came later, but they too never record public disputations with Jewish exegetes. That absence reflects the social reality of a marginalized movement, not proof of supernatural authenticity. True oration on divine inspiration leaves no transcript; the only surviving record is letters shaped by human contexts and conventions.

But, none of that ever happened. Yet, it can happen now, because the issues are not settled by history.

History offers the data we have—archaeological finds, manuscript evidence, contemporaneous citations, and internal critiques. No record of a first-century rabbinic debate on Paul’s inspiration survives, and that vacuum cannot be filled by retrospective discussion. Modern debates may clarify interpretation, but they cannot rewrite the past or produce new evidence of divine origin. The only reasonable conclusion, based on existing evidence, is that Paul’s vision remains unverifiable personal testimony, and his epistles bear all the hallmarks of human composition and editorial transmission.

Or, on a different interpretation, my assertion emphasizes the importance of imagination so that considerations in terms of multiple possibilities can best be assured in the attempt to realize the most trans-perspectival understanding. That sort of understanding - not consensus - is the most worthwhile goal. Interpretation always transcends rote repetition inasmuch as interpretation necessarily involves some amount of - some sort of - understanding, and that is the case even in the absence of objective standards.

Invoking “imagination” and “multiple possibilities” without objective criteria is a recipe for unrestrained speculation, not insight. Serious exegesis employs well-established tools—Koine Greek grammar, manuscript comparison, first-century historical context, lexicon studies—to narrow down readings to the most plausible meaning. Those methods aren’t arbitrary consensus-building; they’re repeatable, evidence-based procedures that converge on a text’s likely intent.

If we abandon them in favor of pure “trans-perspectival” fancy, every conjecture—from Paul’s words being literal divine dictation to them being cryptic codes—becomes equally valid. No stable understanding could emerge. Consensus arises precisely because independent scholars apply the same rigorous standards and reach the same core interpretation of Galatians 1:11: Paul frames his gospel as a revelation he received, using familiar human rhetoric. That shared result proves that interpretation, governed by objective methods, transcends mere parroting without dissolving into endless flights of imagination.

NHC
 
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According to the Oxford Bible Commentary it was common for someone to write in the name of someone at the top.

The commentary covers authorship of each book in the bible, OT and NT. There should be a PDF of an old revision.


NHC I appreciate your posts, they are very good at least IMO.
 
Invoking “imagination” and “multiple possibilities” without objective criteria is a recipe for unrestrained speculation, not insight.
That perspective always fascinates me. Even though it is so very commonplace. But, instead of explaining at this time how something that commonplace manages to remain fascinating across its instantiations, I will instead refer to another other passage.

If we abandon them in favor of pure “trans-perspectival” fancy, every conjecture—from Paul’s words being literal divine dictation to them being cryptic codes—becomes equally valid. No stable understanding could emerge. Consensus arises precisely because independent scholars apply the same rigorous standards and reach the same core interpretatio
That is some of the most astonishing illogic yet. I don’t know what to say in response other than: Oh, lordy!

That perspective and the striking illogic are fascinating. But that’s not why I cite that passage. No, I bring it up because it contributes to the following passage.

shared result proves that interpretation, governed by objective methods, transcends … without dissolving into endless flights of imagination.
Given reference to “objective criteria”, “rigorous standards”, and “objective methods”, it is necessary that those terms now be explained - if only so that I might glean your meaning despite the expressions utilized.
 
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