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Pastor Kevin Swanson Calls For Executing Gays At Event Attended By GOP Candidates [VIDEO]

Ya, I agree with Eddie. It's still about the morality of murder. Whether you're saying that you should do it yourself or that someone else should do it, you're arguing that somebody should have the job of killing homosexuals for the crime of being gay.

Just because he doesn't want to get his own hands dirty doesn't mean he's not arguing that there's a crime people should be killed for committing.

Oh come on, not you too! Surely you recognize the difference between holding a belief and acting on it.
And I've gone to some length to explain the difference to you: if you say "I believe A must come before B" and then are seen deliberately putting B before A, then it stands to reason that you do NOT hold that belief and are not being completely honest about what you believe.

Some false beliefs are easy to hold because you will never put them to the test. Billy may believe, for example, that a man should never ever cheat on his wife; the fact that Billy doesn't HAVE a wife means he will never find out for sure if this is a belief he really holds, or if it's just something he tells himself to shore up his confidence.

I'm sure that Kevin Swanson WANTS to believe that gays deserve to die, because he WANTS to believe that the Bible is the literal truth of God. But he doesn't believe it, probably because he's not a psychopath and, like everyone else in America, has been raised to conventional western moral standards that include silly notions about the sanctity of human life.

It doesn't follow that we don't believe what we say we do from not acting on a belief.

Of course not. It follows that we don't believe what we say we do when we actively refrain from putting a belief into practice.

It's obvious that Swanson doesn't actually believe gays deserve to die. It's slightly less clear if he believes people who murder homosexuals should not be prosecuted for doing so, because he has never been in a position to DEFEND such a murderer. It is extremely likely, however, that he would decline to do so if given the opportunity.
 
Oh come on, not you too! Surely you recognize the difference between holding a belief and acting on it. It doesn't follow that we don't believe what we say we do from not acting on a belief.

I'm not following you. If I say that theft of $10,000 should be punished by three years in jail, you're saying that it's not my position that I think a court should sentence a person who stole $10,000 worth of stuff to three years in jail?

The essence of my position is my belief that this punishment fits this crime, so people who commit this crime should receive this punishment. I'm not saying that I should personally lock him my basement for three years. I'm saying that we have a system to deal with criminals and that system should deal with this criminal in this manner.

Similarly, this guy is saying that he believes that homosexuality is a crime and that crime should be punished by death. It doesn't mean that he wants to personally kill them but that he feels God has made it very clear that this is what the law should be and that the criminal justice system should deal with these criminals in this manner.
I follow what you're saying. You made it clear. It's the bold part that I did not see in the link.
 
If something should be done, and he doesn't want to do it, it's because he either doesn't really believe it should be done, or he believes that the people whose are in a position to do these things should do them.

No, this does not follow. There are other possibilities. For example, he might believe that gay people should be executed in a specific way, or by "society" (ie; executed by the state). There's too many possibilities to simply reduce this hypothetical to an Either/Or conclusion.


If his excuse is "Who me? I'm not a murderer." Then he has backpedaled to the latter belief.

Yes, *if* that's his excuse then that's true. However, you're assuming that because he doesn't personally kill someone that that's his excuse.

"*if* his excuse is what I've already concluded is his excuse, then I'm right."



Right. That's not a belief about the recycling or getting rid of garbage. It's a belief about people whose job it is to DO that.

No, it's really me just not wanting to do it and justifying that after the fact.


So if you live in a community that doesn't have a garbage service, doesn't allow people to own garbage cans, and requires people to store their garbage in their home forever, and you do nothing to change that, what does that say about your beliefs?

Nothing. Just that I'm lazy and non-commital. People can hold genuine beliefs that they don't actually live by.


He DOESN'T believe it. He is bullshitting. If he actually believed it, he'd be lobbying for a legislative action to make it happen.

Why? Personally, I actually genuinely believe that climate change is a problem we should address. But I haven't spent a second in my life lobbying for legislative action on it. There's lots of things I genuinely believe should happen that I haven't spent any effort on making happen. My inaction doesn't change a damned thing about my beliefs.



No, that's what happens when that belief is sincerely held by a large enough number of people in a society. Someone can be delusional enough to think that gay people should be killed and at the same time recognize the futility of trying to introduce laws in a western country that explicitly protects them.

Again, what you're saying just doesn't follow. It's not an unreasonable conclusion to draw regarding his stances... but it *is* unreasonable to assert it as the only possible conclusion.
 
Well, that's what the bible says. So either get rid of the bible or we kill people who work on Saturdays
 
It follows that we don't believe what we say we do when we actively refrain from putting a belief into practice.
I don't believe that follows.

You are, in effect, denying that there is any coherent relationship between belief and actions whatsoever. As if the belief that an action is neccesary is logically compatible with the belief that it is less neccesary than whatever excuse he has come up with for not taking that action.

It isn't, though. That's a backpedal. "I believe that gays should be put to death" backpedals to "I believe gays should be put to death by somebody else." Backpedals to "I believe people who put gays to death are sanctioned by god's commandments" backpedals still further to "I believe people who put gays to death were sanctioned by god's commandments in old testament times" backpedals, finally, to, "I believe god disapproves of homosexuality strongly enough that he used to look the other way when people murdered homosexuals."

It is only the FINAL position that actually reflects the actions of (all but the most extreme) conservative Christians. All the intermediate steps before that are bullshit: rhetorical devices that sound good to the listener but do not reflect anything the speaker really intends to do, how he plans to live his life, or what he thinks should really be done, by himself or by anyone else.
 
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No, this does not follow. There are other possibilities. For example, he might believe that gay people should be executed in a specific way, or by "society" (ie; executed by the state).
That falls under "people who are in a position to do it."

But that, again, is a belief about murder and/or capital punishment, not homosexuality. That is "I believe the state executes people for heinous crimes, and homosexuality should be one of those crimes."

But he doesn't believe THAT either. Nor would he ever be caught dead advocating for such a thing. That, again, is the moving goalpost of tenable beliefs; when that belief encounters the test of reality (e.g. he is given an opportunity to advocate for death penalties for homosexuals and fails to do so) then he either backpedals to a more realistic belief, or he handwaves the contradiction with bullshit.

The fact of the matter is, even the most conservative Christians do not really believe homosexuals deserve to die. They THINK they believe it, but that imaginary moral imperative is not part of the real world in which they actually inhabit in their day-to-day lives. It is part of a fantasy world of theological "What if..." and "In a perfect world..." scenarios that they know, on some level, will never be real.

To use your own analogy: you believe that your neighbor should take out your garbage on a regular basis and recycle his cans and bottles. This MIGHT be a genuine belief, except you know good and damn well your neighbor is never going to come to your house and take out your garbage, that you could never convince him to do it, that asking him to do it would get you punched in the face, and that at the end of the day it's easier to just do it yourself while whining that your neighbor ought to do it himself.

Just because you can imagine something doesn't mean you really believe in it.

Right. That's not a belief about the recycling or getting rid of garbage. It's a belief about people whose job it is to DO that.

No, it's really me just not wanting to do it and justifying that after the fact.
Right. You don't REALLY believe you should be taking out your neighbor's garbage, you're just SAYING you believe it for rhetorical purposes and then claiming your belief only APPEARS to be un-genuine for reasons X, Y and Z but it really and truly is a genuine belief.

That, my friend, is called "bullshit."

Nothing. Just that I'm lazy and non-commital.
Right. You don't think it SHOULD happen, you just think it would be nice if it DID happen.

That is called "fantasizing." As with bullshit, it is not the same thing as belief.

He DOESN'T believe it. He is bullshitting. If he actually believed it, he'd be lobbying for a legislative action to make it happen.

Why? Personally, I actually genuinely believe that climate change is a problem we should address. But I haven't spent a second in my life lobbying for legislative action on it.
Therefore your actions indicate your actual beliefs: climate change is a problem, but not a problem worthy of your time.

Which is fine. I also believe climate change is a problem and something should be done about it. I don't believe that anything I could do would make a difference, however, nor would it be a productive use of my time, because I don't REALLY believe the effects of climate change are going to be bad enough to make it worth the (admittedly futile) effort. Yes, I've been TOLD the effects would be bad enough to make it worth it; yes I am AWARE that people other than me will suffer far greater than me as a consequence. Yes, I'm comfortable with the fact that I don't actually care enough about those people to really take the issue seriously.

Giving lip-service to something you are expected to support -- saying what you expect people want to hear -- is NOT the same thing as holding a genuine belief. You, like most people, do not believe climate change is a BIG ENOUGH problem to warrant your actually spending time on it. A person can CLAIM to believe all kinds of things, but your beliefs are reflected in how you live, not how imagine yourself living.

No, that's what happens when that belief is sincerely held by a large enough number of people in a society.
Correction: that's what happens when a belief is sincerely held by a large enough people in a government. Society wouldn't actually need to approve of the passing of such a law; on the other hand, a massive social backlash AGAINST that law would reflect the beliefs of the majority of that society. So, too, would the LACK of a backlash if the majority of people quietly went along with it.

It's not an unreasonable conclusion to draw regarding his stances... but it *is* unreasonable to assert it as the only possible conclusion.

In context? Assuming, of course, that he is not a psychopath:
He is raised in a western society. He knows a western society will never tolerate the passage of such a law. He knows that his COMMUNITY will never tolerate the passage of such a law. He knows, on some level, that even his listeners would not stand idly by and tolerate that kind of behavior, despite the fact that many of them CLAIM they would. So while a mass machinegunning of homosexuals in the middle of Time's Square may be something he daydreams about, it is not something he actually wants to make happen. He's an asshole, not a monster.

But I concede, you are correct: it is possible that he IS, in fact, a psychopath and he genuinely believes this, and he actually WOULD try to make it happen if he had the opportunity. In that case, I am simply giving him too much credit. But even in that case, the true test of his beliefs is what he DOES, not what he SAYS.
 
I'm not following you. If I say that theft of $10,000 should be punished by three years in jail, you're saying that it's not my position that I think a court should sentence a person who stole $10,000 worth of stuff to three years in jail?

The essence of my position is my belief that this punishment fits this crime, so people who commit this crime should receive this punishment. I'm not saying that I should personally lock him my basement for three years. I'm saying that we have a system to deal with criminals and that system should deal with this criminal in this manner.

Similarly, this guy is saying that he believes that homosexuality is a crime and that crime should be punished by death. It doesn't mean that he wants to personally kill them but that he feels God has made it very clear that this is what the law should be and that the criminal justice system should deal with these criminals in this manner.
I follow what you're saying. You made it clear. It's the bold part that I did not see in the link.

How do you not see it? It's in the very first paragraph of the link:

“There are instances in which both the Old and New Testament speak to the matter with unbelievable clarity. You know what that sin is – it’s the sin of homosexuality. In fact in Romans 1 Paul affirms that this particular sin is worthy of death. The Old and New Testament, I believe both speak with authority and we outta receive it.”

When he says "I believe both speak with authority and we outta receive it", what do you take that to mean?

I take it to mean that he is saying that God has told us very clearly and unambiguously what the law should be ("speak with authority") and that the criminal justice system should conform to the laws set down by God ("we outta receive it").

How do you interpret his statement?
 
Oh come on, not you too! Surely you recognize the difference between holding a belief and acting on it. It doesn't follow that we don't believe what we say we do from not acting on a belief.

I'm not following you. If I say that theft of $10,000 should be punished by three years in jail, you're saying that it's not my position that I think a court should sentence a person who stole $10,000 worth of stuff to three years in jail?

But he is saying what he believes his god's position to be. It would be more analogous to say he believes his god wants to see people punished with three years in jail for stealing $3000. He may go on to recommend we all take up stones and do something about it, or he may feel his god has enough resources to handle it on his own.
 
I follow what you're saying. You made it clear. It's the bold part that I did not see in the link.

How do you not see it? It's in the very first paragraph of the link:

“There are instances in which both the Old and New Testament speak to the matter with unbelievable clarity. You know what that sin is – it’s the sin of homosexuality. In fact in Romans 1 Paul affirms that this particular sin is worthy of death. The Old and New Testament, I believe both speak with authority and we outta receive it.”

When he says "I believe both speak with authority and we outta receive it", what do you take that to mean?

I take it to mean that he is saying that God has told us very clearly and unambiguously what the law should be ("speak with authority") and that the criminal justice system should conform to the laws set down by God ("we outta receive it").

How do you interpret his statement?

What do I take that to mean? That the Old and New Testament are authoritative sources of truth and that we should embrace the scriptures in our hearts as absolute truth. How you come to grasp the idea that human-made laws are somehow relevant is beyond me.
 
What are you taking about? Swanson is one of the leaders of the Christian Reconstructionist movement. They advocate that the Bible be the basis of human-made laws.

When he says that the Bible calls for something to be a punishment for a given crime, he means that human authorities should enact that punishment for that crime. It's kind of their entire thing.
 
What are you taking about? Swanson is one of the leaders of the Christian Reconstructionist movement. They advocate that the Bible be the basis of human-made laws.

When he says that the Bible calls for something to be a punishment for a given crime, he means that human authorities should enact that punishment for that crime. It's kind of their entire thing.

Okay, and that may very well be the case, but the link in no way informed me of that.
 
What are you taking about? Swanson is one of the leaders of the Christian Reconstructionist movement. They advocate that the Bible be the basis of human-made laws.

When he says that the Bible calls for something to be a punishment for a given crime, he means that human authorities should enact that punishment for that crime. It's kind of their entire thing.

Okay, and that may very well be the case, but the link in no way informed me of that.

Well, you were pretty forceful in your defence of his motivations. What were you basing your position on?
 
Okay, and that may very well be the case, but the link in no way informed me of that.

Well, you were pretty forceful in your defence of his motivations. What were you basing your position on?

I read the title that included the verbiage, "calls for executing" by a pastor--with no clue who he is or what he's about. I thought that was kinda extreme and decided to read further. Admitedly, I walk into it with prejudgments. I figured a couple things were probably going on: 1) misunderstanding and 2) exaggeration.

A lot of times, it's hard to read certain passages and come away with a full blown dead accurate understanding of a message; hence, I figured there would be (in part) misunderstanding lying at the heart of the matter. A lot of times, people get carried way, especially when finding offense to something, so from the get-go, I expected hyperbole or some substantive level of exaggeration.

So, I read the passage, and in doing so, I couldn't guarantee the conclusion that execution was the goal. It was all about the analysis between the passage and the title, never about his motivations.
 
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