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Paul Krugman endorses Moore-Coulter

ksen

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http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/07/asymmetric-stupidity/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

What Ezra does is cite research showing that people understand the world in ways that suit their tribal identities: in controlled experiments both conservatives and liberals systematically misread facts in a way that confirms their biases. And more information doesn’t help: people screen out or discount facts that don’t fit their worldview. Politics, as he says, makes us stupid.

But here’s the thing: the lived experience is that this effect is not, in fact, symmetric between liberals and conservatives. Yes, liberals are sometimes subject to bouts of wishful thinking. But can anyone point to a liberal equivalent of conservative denial of climate change, or the “unskewing” mania late in the 2012 campaign, or the frantic efforts to deny that Obamacare is in fact covering a lot of previously uninsured Americans? I don’t mean liberals taking positions you personally disagree with — I mean examples of overwhelming rejection of something that shouldn’t even be in dispute.

There you go Jimmy, you have a Nobel prize winner endorsing your postulate.
 
As far as I'm concerned you do.

Maybe Krugman will send you some of his phat Nobel loot.
 
Moore-Coulter does not apply to anti-science claims in my opinion: false GMO health claims, false Fukushima health/environmental claims, false alternative medicine health claims, etc.

Can we honestly say Moore-Coulter applies to matters of science? Are conservolibertarians more likely to pass laws reinforcing their anti-science views in the realm of education? Are conservolibertarians more likely to screw with the funding of sciences in order to reinforce their anti-science views? Is there a difference?
 
Today's society is not similar to any society that has ever existed on the earth before. Most of the supportive structures that could even be found in tribal societies are totally non-existent today for a large portion of this society. The only people who retain their tribal loyalties are the ultra-rich. A mass of people without organization, often without even knowing their neighbors' names in social isolation, whose lives are exploited for gain by others actually has no meaningful culture at all, no loyalty to each other, and often no hope. You cannot relate anything current in their lives to some ancient notion of tribal organization. Attempts to do so by uneducated and under-supported youths give you street gangs. The nature of their organization is shaped by their common relationship to the police.

Al Capone is long gone, but his spirit is alive and well in corporate America and our military industrial complex. The real problem with predatory capitalism as practiced in America today is that it creates a large amorphous underclass with virtually no say about what happens in their lives. Even if the 1% were full of humanitarian zeal, it is too small a force to educate all the ignorant in their ways. How did they get to be the 1%? By hacking the underclass out of the picture in the first place. Their tools, bubbles, moral hazards, mortgages, workplaces not fit for animals, worldwide pollution, corporate media, and other devices to divide and conquer.

Theorizing about the nature of man and relating it back to some ancient tribalism just feeds the fire and diverts the argument from the gross unfairness of the existing system. Whether a poor person is a liberal or a conservative is totally inconsequential in most cases. Poor is poor. Liberal and conservative are meaningless labels we use to sort out politicians and other rich people depending on their level of narcissism.
 
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Moore-Coulter does not apply to anti-science claims in my opinion: false GMO health claims, false Fukushima health/environmental claims, false alternative medicine health claims, etc.
You do raise a good point and I was wrestling with this earlier. Moore-Coulter is about perceptions of partisan magnitudes, ie Moore is as bad as Coulter. What Krugman seems to be talking about is the how the right-wing fringe has a lot more presence than the left-wing fringe. A Moore-Coulter could apply is someone said the whackos from both parties are "just as bad", but Krugman is more noting how there are just a boatload of far right-wing nutbags than far left-wing nutbags.

Can we honestly say Moore-Coulter applies to matters of science?
Only if one compares the "pro" AGW scientists as being bad as the denialists.

There goes my cred. :(
 
Are conservolibertarians more likely to pass laws reinforcing their anti-science views in the realm of education? Are conservolibertarians more likely to screw with the funding of sciences in order to reinforce their anti-science views? Is there a difference?
Yes, yes, and YES.
That was easy;)
 
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/07/asymmetric-stupidity/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0
There you go Jimmy, you have a Nobel prize winner endorsing your postulate.


Your post leads to a few curiosities, some oddities, and perhaps a dash of irony.

The 'postulate' endorsement was derived from Krugman who was troubled by Klein's VOX article which, in turn, was based a study: “Motivated Numeracy and Enlightened Self-Government” by Dan Kahan, Ellen Peters, Erica Dawson, and Paul Slovic". In following the chain backwards I found nuggets of interest.

Krugman wrote: "What Ezra does is cite research showing that people understand the world in ways that suit their tribal identities: in controlled experiments both conservatives and liberals systematically misread facts in a way that confirms their biases. And more information doesn’t help: people screen out or discount facts that don’t fit their worldview. Politics, as he says, makes us stupid.

But here’s the thing: the lived experience is that this effect is not, in fact, symmetric between liberals and conservatives... I mean (conservatives)... overwhelming rejection of something that shouldn’t even be in dispute."


I suppose Krugman was mildly chastising Klein for not going beyond the study's conclusions, given that Krugman's "lived experience" tells him that conservatives misreads the facts far more than liberals...then I discovered that Klein was exactly not about how people misread facts, so much as how they approach problem solving.

Krugman was partly misreading the article, Klein was pointing out that "Liberals were extremely good at solving the problem when doing so proved that gun-control legislation reduced crime. But when presented with the version of the problem that suggested gun control had failed, their math skills stopped mattering. They tended to get the problem wrong no matter how good they were at math. Conservatives exhibited the same pattern — just in reverse.". In other words, according to Klein, folks did not "generally misread the facts", but that partisans went dumb when the problem suggested the opposite of what they believed - in fact:

"Being better at math didn’t just fail to help partisans converge on the right answer. It actually drove them further apart. Partisans with weak math skills were 25 percentage points likelier to get the answer right when it fit their ideology. Partisans with strong math skills were 45 percentage points likelier to get the answer right when it fit their ideology. The smarter the person is, the dumber politics can make them. (Max's note: this too was inaccurate see original study comments below).

"Consider how utterly insane that is: being better at math made partisans less likely to solve the problem correctly when solving the problem correctly meant betraying their political instincts. People weren’t reasoning to get the right answer; they were reasoning to get the answer that they wanted to be right."..."Klein writes that “People weren’t reasoning to get the right answer; they were reasoning to get the answer that they wanted to be right.”

But then, after reading parts of the original study, I realized that Klein also got it wrong. The authors found that when a partisan group of folks with low and high numeracy skills are provided with a problem that appears to confirm their bias, they stop thinking and readily accept it even though it was wrong. When a problem appeared to conflict their beliefs, the partisan used their numeracy skills to look critically, and were then more likely to get the answer right. The politics did not become polarized, just that the chances of solving a problem when the problem appeared to confirm a bias was much less than when it appeared to contradict bias. And those with higher numeracy skills were, naturally, far more likely to get it right.

Interesting...how the problem of objectively reading an original study, on bias in problem solving, is itself distorted by bias in problem solving.

Hmmmm...
 
"Consider how utterly insane that is: being better at math made partisans less likely to solve the problem correctly when solving the problem correctly meant betraying their political instincts. People weren’t reasoning to get the right answer; they were reasoning to get the answer that they wanted to be right."..."Klein writes that “People weren’t reasoning to get the right answer; they were reasoning to get the answer that they wanted to be right.”
Since when was this a surprise? People with critical thinking skills can delude themselves into thinking they are solving the problem. When in reality the problem they are solving is how is the data not coming out the way I expected it to.

Studies have already been conducted that indicate that partisan number fucking leads to the brain rewarding the person with a rush.

But then, after reading parts of the original study, I realized that Klein also got it wrong. The authors found that when a partisan group of folks with low and high numeracy skills are provided with a problem that appears to confirm their bias, they stop thinking and readily accept it even though it was wrong. When a problem appeared to conflict their beliefs, the partisan used their numeracy skills to look critically, and were then more likely to get the answer right. The politics did not become polarized, just that the chances of solving a problem when the problem appeared to confirm a bias was much less than when it appeared to contradict bias. And those with higher numeracy skills were, naturally, far more likely to get it right.
But this is where things get tricky and fall into where Krugman is speaking on. How many conservatives think Obama isn't even an American? Now please come up with a ridiculous left-wing alternative with a similar representation of the liberal base?
 
Since when was this a surprise? People with critical thinking skills can delude themselves into thinking they are solving the problem. When in reality the problem they are solving is how is the data not coming out the way I expected it to.

Studies have already been conducted that indicate that partisan number fucking leads to the brain rewarding the person with a rush.

But this is where things get tricky and fall into where Krugman is speaking on. How many conservatives think Obama isn't even an American? Now please come up with a ridiculous left-wing alternative with a similar representation of the liberal base?

That particular manifestation of reality distortion is not exactly comparable to anything - it was fueled by Obama's own unusual personal history, his lack of candor and his determined unwillingness of open his birth records (as well as college records).

However, now that you mention it, I am beginning to wonder if left lunacies tend to be just as pervasive, but just more individualistic - the diversity loopyness they adore? There are millions who swallowed Moore's nuttary on Bush or (Medical Care) whole cloth, but there were plenty of other individual cases of BDS. Some folks seriously thought that Bush was tipped off on 9/11 by the Saudis, or co-conspired with Israeli's who were behind it; others, like Charlie Sheen still believe there was a massive 9/11 coverup, others like Kennedy accused Bush of secretly plotting with Saudi's to jack up oil prices, Moyers actually ranted about a 'right-wing wrecking crew" engaged in "a deliberate, intentional destruction of the United States way of governing". And Gore called Bush a traitor.

In fact, the left seems saturated with such reality warping: RDS (Rove), LDS (Limbaugh), MDS (Murdoch), CDS (Cheney), and most recently KDS (Koch's)...not to mention CDS (Christian).

Another possibility is, of course, that the left pushes themes it does not actually believe (at least by those doing the pushing)...for example, the myth of the gender wage gap, or the efficacy of head start.

My take is that both sides have huge amounts of reality distortion, the difference between the two only in the amount of left arrogance and pervasive personal hatreds.
 
Another possibility is, of course, that the left pushes themes it does not actually believe (at least by those doing the pushing)...for example, the myth of the gender wage gap, or the efficacy of head start.

"myth"

Hey, thanks for proving Krugman's point!
 
"myth"

Hey, thanks for proving Krugman's point!

Gee, where have we heard that kind of logic before? Oh yes...

Dissent (or an attempt to leave the Soviet socialist utopia) was deemed by the Soviets to be a mental illness. Anyone who dissented against Soviet view of psychiatry were 'thanked' for proving the Soviet POV, and by the way, carted off to a long stay in a mental hospital.

Might we guess someone else is proving Krugman's point?
 
That particular manifestation of reality distortion is not exactly comparable to anything - it was fueled by Obama's own unusual personal history, his lack of candor and his determined unwillingness of open his birth records (as well as college records).

However, now that you mention it, I am beginning to wonder if left lunacies tend to be just as pervasive, but just more individualistic - the diversity loopyness they adore? There are millions who swallowed Moore's nuttary on Bush or (Medical Care) whole cloth, but there were plenty of other individual cases of BDS. Some folks seriously thought that Bush was tipped off on 9/11 by the Saudis, or co-conspired with Israeli's who were behind it; others, like Charlie Sheen still believe there was a massive 9/11 coverup, others like Kennedy accused Bush of secretly plotting with Saudi's to jack up oil prices, Moyers actually ranted about a 'right-wing wrecking crew" engaged in "a deliberate, intentional destruction of the United States way of governing". And Gore called Bush a traitor.

In fact, the left seems saturated with such reality warping: RDS (Rove), LDS (Limbaugh), MDS (Murdoch), CDS (Cheney), and most recently KDS (Koch's)...not to mention CDS (Christian).

Another possibility is, of course, that the left pushes themes it does not actually believe (at least by those doing the pushing)...for example, the myth of the gender wage gap, or the efficacy of head start.

My take is that both sides have huge amounts of reality distortion, the difference between the two only in the amount of left arrogance and pervasive personal hatreds.

Now we know who YOUR HEROES ARE, thanks for informing us of your own personal distortions. Many of the things on your list will ultimately prove to not be merely paranoias of the left but realities. Do you accept the Koch propaganda against global warming? Do you accept the Cheney defense of torture? How long each day do you sit by your radio and listen to the harangues of Limbaugh? Krugman's point is valid. There is an asymmetry in the degree of distortion the two sides (liberal and conservative) will stoop to. I agree with ksen. Thanks for telling us how you think.
 
Now we know who YOUR HEROES ARE, thanks for informing us of your own personal distortions. Many of the things on your list will ultimately prove to not be merely paranoias of the left but realities. Do you accept the Koch propaganda against global warming? Do you accept the Cheney defense of torture? How long each day do you sit by your radio and listen to the harangues of Limbaugh? Krugman's point is valid. There is an asymmetry in the degree of distortion the two sides (liberal and conservative) will stoop to. I agree with ksen. Thanks for telling us how you think.

Thanks for the warm and fuzzies! Never before have I had such a sweet and temperate response to my usual dissent from liberal orthodoxy - just goes to show, liberals love diversity. That said, anyone who has bothered to read two or more posts of mine know my political orientation (especially if you visit FRDB). And I do find it curious that after I criticize the left for irrationally obsessing over personalities (e.g. BDS), you wish to turn this thread from discussing Moore-Coulter and Krugman into a hearing on me...is this the onset of MPDS (Maxparrish derangement syndrome)?

Although it bit of derail, I'll go along with inquiry from the self appointed Torquemada's...

I am not familier with the specifics of Koch's position on global warming, or on Cheney's view of torture but I suspect I have some sympathy for both. I often listen to at least some of Limbaugh, sometimes two or three times a week. Krugman is functionally retarded for the same reasons he bemoans.
 
It isn't worth pointing out the ways in which left extremism is just like right extremism because the response is always excuses and justifications. If you want to see the fallacy of Moore-Coulter, you first have to step outside the bubble
 
It isn't worth pointing out the ways in which left extremism is just like right extremism because the response is always excuses and justifications. If you want to see the fallacy of Moore-Coulter, you first have to step outside the bubble

What bubble? Krugman is right. The right wing stonewalls issues that kill people. There are some parallels depending on just what might call left. I pointed out earlier that this dichotomy is actually a dichotomy of the well off with each side in mainstream politics resorting to bigger and bigger megaphones...billion dollar ones at that. All this political noise frequently is merely a distraction from the problems the masses face and only determines which well financed person sits in which chair. The Obama administration (you cannot in all fairness call that the left) is loaded with Goldman Sachs alumni, and is pretty much devoted to assassination and spying on the American people. Hard to call that "left." Impossible to call that progressive.
 
That particular manifestation of reality distortion is not exactly comparable to anything - it was fueled by Obama's own unusual personal history, his lack of candor and his determined unwillingness of open his birth records (as well as college records).
Umm... thanks for establishing my point on how some people just don't seem to have a handle on the real world. I really should stop reading this thread based on the ridiculousness from above, but sometimes I just don't stop when I should.

However, now that you mention it, I am beginning to wonder if left lunacies tend to be just as pervasive, but just more individualistic - the diversity loopyness they adore? There are millions who swallowed Moore's nuttary on Bush or (Medical Care) whole cloth, but there were plenty of other individual cases of BDS. Some folks seriously thought that Bush was tipped off on 9/11 by the Saudis, or co-conspired with Israeli's who were behind it; others, like Charlie Sheen still believe there was a massive 9/11 coverup, others like Kennedy accused Bush of secretly plotting with Saudi's to jack up oil prices,...
Nice try with trying to lump Sheen in with some sort of percentage of liberal Americans. BDS? I do agree there... the handling of the Katrina response, warrantless wiretapping program, the whole run up to and then failed occupation of Iraq, fucking up the Afghanistan occupation, ignoring threats of terrorism prior to 9/11. That is "just as bad" as Obama bowing to a King, his birth certificate, BENGHAZI!!!!!!!!!!!!!, the isolated IRS office hassling of Republican groups attempting to get tax exemption status, and SOLYNDRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Moyers actually ranted about a 'right-wing wrecking crew" engaged in "a deliberate, intentional destruction of the United States way of governing".
Is that is doubt? Where the fuck have you been since 2009?
And Gore called Bush a traitor.
I notice you didn't use quotes.

In fact, the left seems saturated with such reality warping: RDS (Rove), LDS (Limbaugh), MDS (Murdoch), CDS (Cheney), and most recently KDS (Koch's)...not to mention CDS (Christian).
And today in the mind of a conservative, we discover that calling a spade a spade is actually a sign of mental illness.

My take is that both sides have huge amounts of reality distortion, the difference between the two only in the amount of left arrogance and pervasive personal hatreds.
And that would be an example of Moore-Coulter... so maybe ksen was right with the comparison after all.
 
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