Paul Ryan, Crusader for the Poor

[AthenaAwakened]

- Some people are poor because they're feckless and irresponsible.

- There is institutional poverty so that diligent responsible people are poor.


Both are true. One does not make the other untrue.

Most welfare recipients now work. We already produce goods and services in surplus. If all the feckless and irresponsible people suddenly went diligent and responsible, there'd likely be no less poverty but further downward pressure on wages.

Mr Ryan's maundering about whether such character change should be effected locally or federally is a classic piece of conservolibertarian obfuscation. Issue-framing 101.

^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS RIGHT HERE

 

[AthenaAwakened]

About Sweden
Sweden is a 'Welfare State' and practices what is known as Institutional Welfare:

An institutional system is one in which need is accepted as a normal part of social life. Welfare is provided for the population as a whole, in the same way as public services like roads or schools might be. In an institutional system, welfare is not just for the poor: it is for everyone. (86)


http://www.neoperspectives.com/swedishwelfare.htm

 

[Axulus]

About Sweden
Sweden is a 'Welfare State' and practices what is known as Institutional Welfare:

An institutional system is one in which need is accepted as a normal part of social life. Welfare is provided for the population as a whole, in the same way as public services like roads or schools might be. In an institutional system, welfare is not just for the poor: it is for everyone. (86)


http://www.neoperspectives.com/swedishwelfare.htm

Sweden also has a labor force participation rate of 64.1% (as of 2012), virtually identical to US participation rate at around 63.7

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.TLF.CACT.ZS/countries/SE?display=graph

http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000

Looks like their system doesn't create a bunch of lazy "welfare queens" who sit around and collect their checks.

Sweden does need some labor market reforms, though. They've had chronically high unemployment rates (3 percent higher than Germany, 5 percent higher than Norway). Jobs for those lacking college educations are really lacking.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

About Sweden
Sweden is a 'Welfare State' and practices what is known as Institutional Welfare:

An institutional system is one in which need is accepted as a normal part of social life. Welfare is provided for the population as a whole, in the same way as public services like roads or schools might be. In an institutional system, welfare is not just for the poor: it is for everyone. (86)


http://www.neoperspectives.com/swedishwelfare.htm

Sweden also has a labor force participation rate of 64.1% (as of 2012), virtually identical to US participation rate at around 63.7

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.TLF.CACT.ZS/countries/SE?display=graph

http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000

Looks like their system doesn't create a bunch of lazy "welfare queens" who sit around and collect their checks.

Sweden does need some labor market reforms, though. They've had chronically high unemployment rates (3 percent higher than Germany, 5 percent higher than Norway). Jobs for those lacking college educations are really lacking.

you do know that Bill Clinton reformed welfare and now it's for the most part workfare, right?

 

[Axulus]

Sweden also has a labor force participation rate of 64.1% (as of 2012), virtually identical to US participation rate at around 63.7

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.TLF.CACT.ZS/countries/SE?display=graph

http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000

Looks like their system doesn't create a bunch of lazy "welfare queens" who sit around and collect their checks.

Sweden does need some labor market reforms, though. They've had chronically high unemployment rates (3 percent higher than Germany, 5 percent higher than Norway). Jobs for those lacking college educations are really lacking.

you do know that Bill Clinton reformed welfare and now it's for the most part workfare, right?

Yes, my point was that it is possible to create a reasonable welfare system without killing the incentive to work very much. The US system is a complete mess of multiple, confusing, complex programs that seem to have zero coordination and sometimes opposing goals, with very little analysis or care about effectiveness. It's like the IRS tax code and is bureaucracy and red tape at it's worst

 

[ksen]

Sweden does need some labor market reforms, though. They've had chronically high unemployment rates (3 percent higher than Germany, 5 percent higher than Norway). Jobs for those lacking college educations are really lacking.

The thing about Sweden though is that if you're out of a job you're not going to have to worry as much about not being able to eat, house, or clothe yourself as you would have to in America.

 

[Axulus]

Sweden does need some labor market reforms, though. They've had chronically high unemployment rates (3 percent higher than Germany, 5 percent higher than Norway). Jobs for those lacking college educations are really lacking.

The thing about Sweden though is that if you're out of a job you're not going to have to worry as much about not being able to eat, house, or clothe yourself as you would have to in America.

Doesn't mean they can't significantly improve things. Having a job/career are important factors to happiness and having a fulfilling life. Not being able to obtain one are contributing factors to sense of worthlessness, depression and boredom. It is both possible to get food when unemployed and also have labor market reforms that reduce unemployment rates.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

you do know that Bill Clinton reformed welfare and now it's for the most part workfare, right?

Yes,

OK, just checking

my point was that it is possible to create a reasonable welfare system without killing the incentive to work very much.

agreed

The US system is a complete mess of multiple, confusing, complex programs that seem to have zero coordination and sometimes opposing goals, with very little analysis or care about effectiveness.

true, but you forgot "convoluted"

It's like the IRS tax code and is bureaucracy and red tape at it's worst

now now there I may have to disagree. You will be hard pressed to prove anything worse than the IRS.

 

[ksen]

The thing about Sweden though is that if you're out of a job you're not going to have to worry as much about not being able to eat, house, or clothe yourself as you would have to in America.

Doesn't mean they can't significantly improve things. Having a job/career are important factors to happiness and having a fulfilling life. Not being able to obtain one are contributing factors to sense of worthlessness, depression and boredom. It is both possible to get food when unemployed and also have labor market reforms that reduce unemployment rates.

I didn't say it wasn't.

But it sure makes job hunting easier when you aren't worried about dying from starvation or exposure.

 

[DBT]

Isn't it the role of a civilized society to make sure that 'no man is left behind?' To set up and maintain social and economical conditions so that everyone who can participate has an opportunity to make a reasonable living according to their aptitude and ability?