Penn teammate speaks out against transgender swimmer Lia Thomas

[Emily Lake]

Which cis females. I am pretty sure most such athletes are serious enough that they don't really care whether the person they are playing against was born with balls so long as they never got a significant competitive advantage on account of them in particular.

Seriously? Are you so wrapped up in your religion that you are unaware that the complaints coming from women are because they are being forced to play with males who absolutely 100% got the advantage of being male? And they are losing competitions, losing the opportunity to compete... and they are losing it to males who are being lauded as "brave and stunning" for competing against those women. Even though every single rational individual with a moderately functioning brain knows that it is strikingly unfair and that it harms and displaces women.

You're arguing against an imaginary opponent, arguing for what you think the argument ought to be, while blithely dismissing the reality of what is occurring right now.

And you insult those of us who are engaging in reality at the same fucking time.

 

[Emily Lake]

So, I'm going to take the vocal minority and disregard them same as I would for metaphor and his concerns about men.

IF you wish to make this about "female" concerns over all others, then it's really about catering to TERFs.

Emily is a TERF and Emily can pound sand as long as she holds onto her crazed TERFy behavior.

Wow. At least you're not trying to pretend that you aren't a blatant fucking misogynist. How dare women actually give a fuck about women, rather than submitting to the desires of men and subjugating themselves to what men want them to do.

Fuck that.

No Thank You
Women Won't Wheesht
Sex Matters

 

[Emily Lake]

It's not my fault that an entire generation of girls was sold on a subtle lie that it might destroy their dream to compete against women born without ovaries, but never significantly affected by anything but the products of such.

I care about all the people, not just the girls, and I care about all of them equally.

If you wish to argue against my position, it's in the first post I made here. Anything else is arguing again nst arguments against arguments not even related to that position.

Sure, sure, sure. The "subtle lie" that males are stronger and more aggressive than females, that males commit 98% of sexual crimes and that 95% of their victims are female, that males have developed a society and a social structure that centers them and ignores females, that they develop products that are designed around male body sizes and shapes and that frequently present risks to females, that males get paid more for the same fucking work, that males dominate the leadership of business and politics, and that socially, females are treated as less-than-full humans, and are expected to submit to men's wishes and desires or be labeled and abused. The "subtle lie" that we live in a sexist world... and that is has gotten unquestioningly MORE sexist since I was a child.

The "subtle lie" that male prisoners are being placed in women's prisons on the basis of nothing more than their declaration to "feel like a woman" even though there is no explanation of what that feels like, and those men have then gone on to rape and sexually assault female inmates, and the media turns a blind eye to it, and the president of the US puts forth legislation that would make it even easier for any male to gain access to women who can't get away from them in prison.

The "subtle lie" that women no longer have access to single-sex rape shelters or domestic violence refuges in the UK, Canada, and many parts of the US, because those shelters are required to allow entrance to any male who claims to be "a woman" with no consideration given to the trauma this causes the victims seeking help.

The "subtle lie" that women have been oppressed for eons on the basis of our sex - our actual physical reproductive anatomy, have been denied citizenship and equal standing, have been treated as chattel, have been viewed as broodmares, and have been the property of men.

I don't believe that you care about females at all.

 

[Jarhyn]

So, your Gish Gallop seems completely to ignore some things here, and designed to bury them, so I'm going to reiterate here:

Which cis females. I am pretty sure most such athletes are serious enough that they don't really care whether the person they are playing against was born with balls so long as they never got a significant competitive advantage on account of them in particular.

Seriously? Are you so wrapped up in your religion that you are unaware that the complaints coming from women are because they are being forced to play with males who absolutely 100% got the advantage of being male? And they are losing competitions, losing the opportunity to compete... and they are losing it to males who are being lauded as "brave and stunning" for competing against those women. Even though every single rational individual with a moderately functioning brain knows that it is strikingly unfair and that it harms and displaces women.

You're arguing against an imaginary opponent, arguing for what you think the argument ought to be, while blithely dismissing the reality of what is occurring right now.

And you insult those of us who are engaging in reality at the same fucking time.

So, I'm just going to point out again that NO TRANS PEOPLE HERE SUPPORT THAT.

None.

It's not my fault that an entire generation of girls was sold on a subtle lie that it might destroy their dream to compete against women born without ovaries, but never significantly affected by anything but the products of such.

I care about all the people, not just the girls, and I care about all of them equally.

If you wish to argue against my position, it's in the first post I made here. Anything else is arguing again nst arguments against arguments not even related to that position.

Sure, sure, sure. The "subtle lie" that males are stronger and more aggressive than females, that males commit 98% of sexual crimes and that 95% of their victims are female, that males have developed a society and a social structure that centers them and ignores females, that they develop products that are designed around male body sizes and shapes and that frequently present risks to females, that males get paid more for the same fucking work, that males dominate the leadership of business and politics, and that socially, females are treated as less-than-full humans, and are expected to submit to men's wishes and desires or be labeled and abused. The "subtle lie" that we live in a sexist world... and that is has gotten unquestioningly MORE sexist since I was a child.

The "subtle lie" that male prisoners are being placed in women's prisons on the basis of nothing more than their declaration to "feel like a woman" even though there is no explanation of what that feels like, and those men have then gone on to rape and sexually assault female inmates, and the media turns a blind eye to it, and the president of the US puts forth legislation that would make it even easier for any male to gain access to women who can't get away from them in prison.

The "subtle lie" that women no longer have access to single-sex rape shelters or domestic violence refuges in the UK, Canada, and many parts of the US, because those shelters are required to allow entrance to any male who claims to be "a woman" with no consideration given to the trauma this causes the victims seeking help.

The "subtle lie" that women have been oppressed for eons on the basis of our sex - our actual physical reproductive anatomy, have been denied citizenship and equal standing, have been treated as chattel, have been viewed as broodmares, and have been the property of men.

I don't believe that you care about females at all.

I do not care about "females" at all, nor "males". I care about "people", which are both, and neither.

You wish that I make special considerations for some set that you define, and badly, as "female".

I won't.

Your terminology throws mud in waters that need to remain clear, specifically to prevent these sorts of conflationary events as puts 'roided up bodies in swimming pools where no 'roids belong.

You wish to hold that terminology like a giant penis shaped cudgel with which to abuse people and keep them out of a space because ????.

I have already pointed to shapes of geometry which can be leveraged to stop the problems you describe from arising without reference to sex.

 

[Emily Lake]

This is kind of different twist on the subject of transwomen competing, not against other women in sports, but in a mixed sex gaming competition.

'JEOPARDY!' AMY SCHNEIDER 4TH CONTESTANT TO WIN MORE THAN $1M ... Breaks All Sorts Of Records!!!

Amy Schneider is on a roll ... she just became the 4th player in "Jeopardy!" history to rake in more than $1 mil in non-tournament play, and she's still in the game!!!

Amy, the first transgender contestant to qualify for the show's Tournament of Champions, won her 28th game on the show that aired Friday night, taking her winnings north of $1M ... to be specific, $1,019,001.

She was stoked, saying, "It feels amazing, it feels strange. It's not a sum of money I ever anticipated would be associated with my name."

Amy has now won more loot than any other female contender, and she's now the record-holder for most consecutive wins by a female contestant.

Kudos to Amy for the achievement, but honestly, the accolades about being the "female record holder" do feel a bit wrong to me. I'd be particularly interested in hearing from the females on this forum about this woman's achievement. Is it a fair and square victory for female accomplishment or not? Are biological women (aka women who menstruate) largely cheering her on from the sidelines, or do they think this this whole thing is just dreadful and embarassing?

Many of us think it's a sham and are a bit peeved at it. We're happy for Amy to have won, and we think that celebrating their achievement as the first transwoman to win that much should be quite enough. I'd happily applaud that, with gusto even.

But this is not a female achievement. And it cheapens the achievements of actual women.

For me personally, as well as several other women that I know, this is a slap in the face. It's a hyped up way of saying "men make better women than women, see, this man is the best woman at this!" Media thinks they're being supportive of transgender identities... but in reality they're denigrating women across the whole developed world and setting our accomplishments back decades.

 

[Emily Lake]

And for such humans as you would yourself attempt (and fail) to deny the right to a brain-concordant single puberty.

You can pretend that the numbers are smaller than they are by using a selection bias, but you are just revealing yourself at the extreme end of bias against trans people's existence.

Stop making up bullshit like this. I have one transgender niece who is genuinely trans, and I fully support her despite her having a penis. I also have a niece who has decided she is trans but who I genuinely do not think is, but who has started testosterone and is now looking at significant lifelong harms for a condition that she self-diagnosed and which no clinician has bothered to investigate or challenge in any way.

 

[Jarhyn]

I wonder if I just make a post about something in the middle here if Emily will feel the need to respond to something non-sequential just to have the last post in the chain before she logs out without actually answering or responding to the instant rebuttals to her stream of gish gallop?

 

[Emily Lake]

Maybe because it's dumb and shitty and downright bullying to insist on something that sticks a knife into one of the deepest traumas a human being can experience.

And fuck you if you don't think being forced into the wrong puberty and body against your will is such.

"Wrong puberty" is the deepest trauma... being sold into sexual slavery, having your clitoris removed, being treated as property, being beaten and abused, meh... those are just things that happen to women around the globe every day, those aren't a big deal.

But oh my god, evolution working the way evolution works is the absolute worst thing ever!!!!!

 

[Jarhyn]

Maybe because it's dumb and shitty and downright bullying to insist on something that sticks a knife into one of the deepest traumas a human being can experience.

And fuck you if you don't think being forced into the wrong puberty and body against your will is such.

"Wrong puberty" is the deepest trauma... being sold into sexual slavery, having your clitoris removed, being treated as property, being beaten and abused, meh... those are just things that happen to women around the globe every day, those aren't a big deal.

But oh my god, evolution working the way evolution works is the absolute worst thing ever!!!!!

All of those are bad traumas too. And yes, evolution working the way it works can absolutely be the worst thing ever.

Just ask someone born with Huntington's Disease.

 

[Emily Lake]

I think that slavers should surrender whips, I think that racists should surrender slurs, and I think that TERFS, no matter how they might pretend reasonability despite their regular production of villains, need to surrender the use of language in situations where it is not accurately descriptive.

Translation: women who don't submit to being called "uterus havers" or "birthing parents" or "menstruators" or " non-androgenized people" or "non-men" are evil and are just like racists and slavers!

Yeparooni folks. Women are the most evilest of people ever. Yep, yep, yep.

Let's not even get into those most evil archbishops of all evilness - the lesbians who refuse to have sex with lady-dick and insist that they're same-sex attracted. Those evil bitches really need to unlearn their bigotry and open themselves (literally) to those penises. How dare they exert their sexual boundaries when some males don't want them to?

 

[Emily Lake]

I am for the self-elected pubertal pathway for all gender nonconforming persons, including "none", if they feel this is what best supports their view of sex and gender for themselves.

If this makes them non-reproductive, I see no issues with this.

Eugenic sterilization of the gender non-conforming in the guise of "progressiveness".

How far away from arguing that because children are old enough to decide to be sterilized and mutilated on their say so, they're also old enough to decide that they wish to have sex with whoever they want, regardless of age?

 

[Emily Lake]

It's exactly an argument from tradition because the purpose has been laid bare "some half of people have innate biological advantages", and exactly the subject is "how do we protect those without those advantages from competing with those who have them, for the sake of fairness?"

Your argument is literally, '"sex" is what we did, sex is what we should do' insofar as you stand with Metaphor.

Sex is THE material cause for that difference in performance!

The reason there is a performance difference is because of evolution in a sexually dimorphic species! A disparity exists because two different sexes exist! That is the exact reason why there is a difference, and that is the exact reason why we separate sports on the basis of the cause of those differences!

No, testosterone is the immediate . You are mixing up immediate causes and material causes. If you want to play that game, maybe @fromderinside can jump in and explain it is caused by the big bang happening.

Testosterone is the last element of the chain that you can change, the final ingredient that actually makes it happen.

This is dumb. The skeletal difference exist regardless of testosterone exposure. The height differences are driven by the adrenal gland, not the pituitary, as are the differences in hand and foot size.

Honestly, if you want to get really actually factual about it... testosterone is the FIRST element, and if you want to completely control for almost all of its effects... you're going to need to suppress testosterone's androgenizing effects in the womb during fetal development.

So go ahead, please, argue why we should begin the sterilization process in utero so that you can force your religious views on the rest of us?

 

[Jarhyn]

It's exactly an argument from tradition because the purpose has been laid bare "some half of people have innate biological advantages", and exactly the subject is "how do we protect those without those advantages from competing with those who have them, for the sake of fairness?"

Your argument is literally, '"sex" is what we did, sex is what we should do' insofar as you stand with Metaphor.

Sex is THE material cause for that difference in performance!

The reason there is a performance difference is because of evolution in a sexually dimorphic species! A disparity exists because two different sexes exist! That is the exact reason why there is a difference, and that is the exact reason why we separate sports on the basis of the cause of those differences!

No, testosterone is the immediate . You are mixing up immediate causes and material causes. If you want to play that game, maybe @fromderinside can jump in and explain it is caused by the big bang happening.

Testosterone is the last element of the chain that you can change, the final ingredient that actually makes it happen.

This is dumb. The skeletal difference exist regardless of testosterone exposure. The height differences are driven by the adrenal gland, not the pituitary, as are the differences in hand and foot size.

Honestly, if you want to get really actually factual about it... testosterone is the FIRST element, and if you want to completely control for almost all of its effects... you're going to need to suppress testosterone's androgenizing effects in the womb during fetal development.

So go ahead, please, argue why we should begin the sterilization process in utero so that you can force your religious views on the rest of us?

Prove the prepubertal skeletal differences create material advantage, please.

It is in fact established that the process of being trans involves brains, so unless you believe in lobotomizing babies in utero, or whatever, I think it's alright to let them elect to different hormones in puberty

People like your relative you cast aspersions on can't have exactly what they ask for only because their parents never had the means nor the motive nor the opportunity to bring their child up to be open and accepting with as much of themselves as they can be, and to only seek to change that which is absolutely vital for their own happiness and your insistence on bringing up children into an apparent gender rather than letting them find it for themselves is exactly what gets people into that mess.

It is not erasing women to let anyone who decides to be raised "as a woman, please" do so. It is not erasing athletes from competitive glory to not say they are in "a league for 'women', specifically".

It is in fact seeing them for what is important and real, their achievements among all equals.

It lets us shove the roided up women in with the roided up men, and allows all the ones without the 'roids to compete fairly more or less.

 

[blastula]

Kudos to Amy for the achievement, but honestly, the accolades about being the "female record holder" do feel a bit wrong to me. I'd be particularly interested in hearing from the females on this forum about this woman's achievement. Is it a fair and square victory for female accomplishment or not? Are biological women (aka women who menstruate) largely cheering her on from the sidelines, or do they think this this whole thing is just dreadful and embarassing?

Is this even about gender, or is it about reporters always trying to make the facts seem more important? In a situation like this "female record holder" basically says the reporter is trying to make it a bigger deal than it really is. People are competing on an equal footing, it doesn't matter what gender they are and thus all that really matters is "record holder"--when you qualify it you're actually saying it isn't a record.

It's prbably brought up because men have done a lot better at that game. I've seen different theories why, but I've wondered whether it's all about buzzer skills and that men have faster reflexes.

Another big question is why there has been so many long winning streaks recently.

 

[Jarhyn]

I am for the self-elected pubertal pathway for all gender nonconforming persons, including "none", if they feel this is what best supports their view of sex and gender for themselves.

If this makes them non-reproductive, I see no issues with this.

Eugenic sterilization of the gender non-conforming in the guise of "progressiveness".

How far away from arguing that because children are old enough to decide to be sterilized and mutilated on their say so, they're also old enough to decide that they wish to have sex with whoever they want, regardless of age?

So, here's the rub: you don't get to define "mutilation" for other people. You only get to define mutilation as to what relates to yourself. Funny thing, that.

And as has been repeatedly brought up, I am not advocating surgical interventions for kids.

The fact that you keep bringing this up is a clear "don't beat your wife" form of bad faith.

They are old enough to do exactly the same thing (get exposed to testosterone, or merely just progesterone and estrogen) as you expect one half or the other to do.

I'm just not concerned with 99.98% vs 98% of the population being potentially fertile. And neither are the people getting their hormones switched up.

We seek to see exactly zero percent people of puberty age have sex.

We seem to seek to see one hundred percent or thereabouts experience puberty. YOU expect nearly 100% to experience puberty. I would seek to give them a choice which, and potentially whether.

And yes, being forced into the wrong body is every bit as traumatic as having the body you do have mutilated.

It is in many ways more fucked up than even many forms of slavery, because all the while you are still looking ahead seeing how much further you haven't gone yet, feeling like there's time still to do the other thing, and then knowing that those who claim to love you, who think that what they are doing is "love" continue to force that on you anyway, and you can never ever escape it. They did it to your whole body, forcing you to have that one.

It is a special kind of powerlessness in the face of indifference.

You would think that people who had been hurt would understand having the life they seek ripped from them on account of the decisions of someone else.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

So, here's the rub: you don't get to define "mutilation" for other people. You only get to define mutilation as to what relates to yourself. Funny thing, that.

Actually, she does not get to define mutilation in regards to herself either. Neither do you, or I, or anyone else for that matter.
For example, if someone cuts my arms off and Joe Doe says I was mutilated and I honestly say I wasn't mutilated, then I am in error and he is correct, because I was mutilated. Words like "mutilated", "mutilation", etc., have a meaning (at least one) in English. Individual speakers do not get to pick any meaning they like. Rather, it is the result of how a linguistic community uses the word. If there is more than one meaning, the speaker may choose among those - though they might misspeak if context indicates they picked another one -, but they cannot make up a meaning, if they are speaking in English rather than a non-standard variant they invent. And in any case, it is the speaker who chooses among the meanings, not the person about whom others are speaking.

 

[Emily Lake]

It is in many ways more fucked up than even many forms of slavery, because all the while you are still looking ahead seeing how much further you haven't gone yet, feeling like there's time still to do the other thing, and then knowing that those who claim to love you, who think that what they are doing is "love" continue to force that on you anyway, and you can never ever escape it. They did it to your whole body, forcing you to have that one.

This is a very strange position. You're arguing that puberty, as governed by evolution, is worse than slavery? What's next, are you going to argue that someone who feels like they should have been an amputee has it worse than an actual slave, because their development gave them two functioning legs and doctors refuse to cut them off for them?

More than anything, what your position demonstrates is a complete lack of any real challenges or hardships in your life.

 

[Jarhyn]

It is in many ways more fucked up than even many forms of slavery, because all the while you are still looking ahead seeing how much further you haven't gone yet, feeling like there's time still to do the other thing, and then knowing that those who claim to love you, who think that what they are doing is "love" continue to force that on you anyway, and you can never ever escape it. They did it to your whole body, forcing you to have that one.

This is a very strange position. You're arguing that puberty, as governed by evolution, is worse than slavery? What's next, are you going to argue that someone who feels like they should have been an amputee has it worse than an actual slave, because their development gave them two functioning legs and doctors refuse to cut them off for them?

More than anything, what your position demonstrates is a complete lack of any real challenges or hardships in your life.

When it is not the puberty you seek yes, just like when Huntington's Disease, as governed by evolution, is also worse than slavery.

Slavery can be escaped, lived down, or released.

You are stuck in the body that grows around you forever, or at least this is the case this far.

I've played a few games which echo reality insofar as they actually do feature people whose self actualization takes them through a path of amputation and prosthetics. When prosthetics performance exceeds meat performance, I expect this to be quite common, people chopping off perfectly serviceable limbs to get them replaced... And donating them to people whose limbs have been otherwise mangled and can't afford prosthetics.

It's a common theme in fiction because it's a common desire.

I'm planning on doing something similar with my whole body.

You also speak rather blithely about what "hardships" a soldier has or hasn't experienced in their life.

 

[Trausti]

When it is not the puberty you seek yes, just like when Huntington's Disease, as governed by evolution, is also worse than slavery.

And encouraging a young person who feels awkward that the solution to their awkwardness is to mutilate their body and take irreversible hormones is worse than the holocaust.

 

[Jarhyn]

When it is not the puberty you seek yes, just like when Huntington's Disease, as governed by evolution, is also worse than slavery.

And encouraging a young person who feels awkward that the solution to their awkwardness is to mutilate their body and take irreversible hormones is worse than the holocaust.

The fact that you keep bringing this up is a clear "don't beat your wife" form of bad faith.

I will exactly encourage young people to:

be open and accepting with as much of themselves as they can be, and to only seek to change that which is absolutely vital for their own happiness

When that involves interrupting a pubertal process with a different one, so be it.

To pretend that letting people have the body they wish to grow is worse than the Holocaust is insulting to literally everyone here.