Police Misconduct Catch All Thread

[Worldtraveller]

Let me get this straight. Someone bursts unannounced into your sleeping, you reach for protection and its your fault you get shot?

What kind of bizarro world do we live in?

An authoritarian shithole.

Glad I could help.

 

[Derec]

It looks like the weapon was on the table or ottoman whatever that is. He was asleep and the kick woke him up, then his first thought was to grab the gun in a WTF is going on moment. It all depends on whether or not him having a weapon was lawful.

Not really. It seems he lawfully possessed the firearm. But at the same time police were in the apartment legally, serving a legal warrant that a judge signed off on. They also identified themselves as police.
I understand that he was startled and might not have comprehended they were police. That's bad luck on his part, but does not change the fact that police have the right to defend themselves when somebody pulls a gun on them. Contra Jarhyn, they are not required to wait until they are shot at.
Warrant service can be very dangerous for police, as many perps prefer to shoot it out. This happened the other day in Atlanta.

Warrants: Man accused of shooting Atlanta officer is an aspiring rapper, member of violent gang

Sleeping people need time to catch their bearings,

Of course they do, which is why they need to take time to recover their bearings before they reach for their gun. In general, people need to be more careful with their firearms. There sadly have been too many cases of armed homeowners shooting their own children because they mistook them for intruders.

also if you have the wrong intel or the suspect you're looking for is not at the target location but an innocent party is what then? These things need to be taken into consideration. Spartan kicking a couch because you presume that's your sleeping perp just doesn't seem like a safe tactic for anybody.

It's a tragic situation, but the family should blame Mekhi Speed for this tragedy, not the police.

Teenager wanted in connection with no-knock warrant that led to Amir Locke's death was his cousin

 

[Derec]

Let me get this straight. Someone bursts unannounced

The police announced themselves.

into your sleeping, you reach for protection and its your fault you get shot?

Generally speaking, pulling a gun on police is not a great idea.

What kind of bizarro world do we live in?

The one where "gun control" lefties become 2nd Amendment absolutists whenever a black guy gets shot.

 

[Derec]

I mean, if I am in a situation, I'm going to reach for the nearest weapon even if it isn't a gun. I would defend myself with my purse if I have to.

Even if you knew they were police?

The movement would get me shot all the same I expect, assuming I was black.

Racist bullshit. White people get shot by police all the time. And if a white guy acted like Locke, he'd been shot too.

They shot someone, ultimately, for moving quickly while waking up.

The problem is that his movement of choice was to immediately grab his gun.

Of course we all said "we should ban this here..." after the last incident and the that not-happened and now there's another dead body in a Minneapolis morgue.

Even the failed police reform law (stupidly named after a dead armed robber) that failed in Congress would have banned no-knocks only for drug warrants, not for homicide ones.

Millions of Americans have been trained to do so, under orders, and been expected to do so for over a year of their lives or more.

Are you really comparing Amir Locke with a military sentry? Was that what you think he was doing? Sentry duty for his cousin's drug stash?

 

[Derec]

The solution is for police NOT to conduct paramilitary style no-knock warrants on the homes of American civilians.

We can debate whether and in what circumstances no-knock warrants should be permitted. That does not change the fact that the warrant was legal.

This is not a raid on the fortified home of a drug kingpin

Maybe not kingpin, but certainly a dealer. And a murderer.

or terrorist cell where the police are likely to meet armed resistance.

It doesn't have to be a terrorist lair for there to be a likelihood of armed resistance. A police officer was shot and badly injured just a few days ago in Atlanta during service of an armed robbery warrant.
Put yourself in the shoes of the police officers. You serve a warrant on a murder suspect. Presumed armed and dangerous. Gang member, so there is a crew. You encounter a guy who, upon waking up, immediately grabs a gun. How is that not a threat to you and your fellow officers.

This is a search warrant on the home of civilian. The killing of innocent civilians and/or the police is an easily predicted outcome of such raids.

How often are innocent civilians killed during the service of no-knock warrants? Do you have data?

This is a tragic death, but I see no fault in the actions of the police officers.

He is dead because the police did not give him time to respond, much less comply with their commands. He was asleep, which must have been obvious to the officers. It takes a person several seconds to tens of seconds to wake up from sleep and gain their bearings.

They did not give him time to respond, because in that time he easily could have shot one of them. As to the bearings, that is why it is a bad idea to go for your gun immediately after waking up.

When he heard people in his apartment, he instinctively reached for his gun,

BS. Instincts are inborn behaviors, not learned ones. Nobody is born with a gun-grabbing instinct.

and was shot by the fucking police before he could even comprehend what was going on.

Which is why you should not grab your gun before you can even comprehend what is going on.

This is manslaughter caused by the callous and reckless actions of the police, and the shooter and his Lt. should be charged as such.

Bullshit, although I think the racist AG of Minnesota might charge the cops just for sport.

They were in the residence legally, serving a legal warrant and somebody pulled a gun on them, at which point they are allowed to use deadly force to protect themselves and their fellow officers. There is no crime here.

They invade our homes and kill us in our sleep. Then they act surprised when people riot in the streets.

Who is this "us"? In any case, riots are the wrong way.

 

[Derec]

The police on many occasions have shot civilians because they thought they were criminals/threats so it's already their solution.

Police shootings of people who are not "criminals/threats" are few and far between.

 

[Derec]

In the short-run, ban no-knock warrants and require stricter accountability when the police shoot someone.

There is already a lot of accountability when police shoot someone, especially in more lefty cities and states - and Minneapolis/Minnesota are certainly lefty. I disagree with a blanket ban on no-knock warrants as they have a place in the police toolkit.

1) adopt rational gun laws,

Agreed.

2) change police training to reduce the "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality that seems to have become ingrained in so many officers,

When threatened with a gun, police will and should respond with deadly force. Don't pull a gun on police. Don't pull a gun at all when you can't comprehend what's going on.

3) work to establish or re-establish more trust between the police and their communities.

For that those communities need to do their part. Like stop glorifying thugs. George Floyd does not deserve statues. Daunte Wright was not the "Prince of Brooklyn Center".

 

[lpetrich]

The police on many occasions have shot civilians because they thought they were criminals/threats so it's already their solution.

Police shootings of people who are not "criminals/threats" are few and far between.

Evidence: {}

 

[lpetrich]

3) work to establish or re-establish more trust between the police and their communities.

For that those communities need to do their part. Like stop glorifying thugs. George Floyd does not deserve statues. Daunte Wright was not the "Prince of Brooklyn Center".

George Floyd served his time and was on the right side of the law for some years until he was caught with counterfeit bills.

Derec, I'm sure that your "criminal past" defense would allow a heck of a lot of murderers to get away scot-free.

 

[Gospel]

. That's bad luck on his part, but does not change the fact that police have the right to defend themselves

And citizens have the right to file civil suits.

 

[southernhybrid]

I strongly oppose no knock warrants. In fact, to me, they seem to be a violation of the 4th Amendment, so I did a little search to see what I could find out about the history of no knock warrants.

https://hartmannreport.com/p/america-must-outlaw-nixons-no-knock

nother day, another dead civilian from a no-knock police raid, this time 22-year-old Amir Locke in Minneapolis. It’s Breonna Taylor all over again.

All because Republican president and criminal Richard Nixon decided to create a phony national “moral panic” that would win him the 1972 election (it worked, by the way).

Binge-watch some cop shows from the 1950s till the early 1970s and you’ll see something very different from today’s SWAT teams executing an estimated 70,000 no-knock warrants every year. Back then, cops would knock on a door, the guy inside would say, “Do you have a warrant?” and the cops would either produce it or leave.

For those too young to remember, Nixon’s racist “War on Drugs” campaign strategy was the turning point when today’s abomination started. Prior to that neither SWAT teams nor no-knock warrants even existed in any meaningful way.

Nixon, elected in 1968 after sabotaging LBJ’s efforts to end the Vietnam War, intended to run for re-election in 1972. Yet by 1971 he and his war were increasingly unpopular, so he huddled with his top advisors Haldemann and Ehrlichman to come up with a strategy to win the upcoming election.

The product of those planning sessions burst into public view on June 17, 1971 when Nixon officially rolled out his brand-spanking-new “War on Drugs.”

Telling Americans that drug abuse both in Vietnam and here at home had “assumed the dimensions of a national emergency,” Nixon started a brand new agency called the Special Action Office of Drug Abuse Prevention.

As the Nixon Foundation notes at their website, Nixon:

“…declared drug abuse ‘public enemy number one.’ ‘In order to fight and defeat this enemy,’ he continued, ‘it is necessary to wage a new, all-out offensive.’ With that statement, the ‘war on drugs’ began.”

Despite living through the dreadful Nixon administration, I didn't realize that it was his insane war on drugs that was the reason for these horrible no knock warrants. About half of those killed by the police have been minorities, and many were mistaken for someone else. It's past time to put an end to this. The link gives a lot more information about them.

Why do we have such disrespect for the 4th Amendment? We should all have the right to feel safe in our homes, without having to worry about some zealous police officers with a no knock warrant threatening our lives, if we do anything that makes them feel scared. No knock warrants are bad for the police as well as for those who feel they are protected from such an invasion due to the 4th Amendment.

The Constitution guarantees us a right to privacy and restates what had, in British common law, been historically called the “Castle Doctrine.”

Sir Edward Coke, in The Institutes of the Laws of England, laid it out in 1628: “For a man’s house is his castle, et domus sua cuique est tutissimum refugium [and each man’s home is his safest refuge].” As I note in The Hidden History of Big Brother, Coke was citing a law ratified in 1275 by England’s King Edward III.

This idea goes way back. The Framers of the Constitution wrote it this way in the Fourth Amendment:

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

It seems to me that a good case could be made that no knock warrants are unconstitutional. It's past time to end them. Considering how many times the police have gone to the wrong home, or have mistaken someone for someone else, it's outrageous that only 3 states have banned these hideous no knock warrants. It's disappointing that these things remain legal and are carried out so frequently.

 

[laughing dog]

In the short-run, ban no-knock warrants and require stricter accountability when the police shoot someone.

There is already a lot of accountability when police shoot someone, especially in more lefty cities and states - and Minneapolis/Minnesota are certainly lefty.

There is more accountability than in the past. But Tamir Rice's killers were never charged. Philandro Castile's killers were not convicted. Hell, the killers of Brionna Taylor are still free.

I disagree with a blanket ban on no-knock warrants as they have a place in the police toolkit.

1) adopt rational gun laws,

Agreed.

2) change police training to reduce the "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality that seems to have become ingrained in so many officers,

When threatened with a gun, police will and should respond with deadly force. Don't pull a gun on police. Don't pull a gun at all when you can't comprehend what's going on.

Having a gun in one's hand is not necessarily a threat. Whether you like it or not. Mr. Locke broke no law - he was asleep with a gun in his hand. While I think it is a stupid thing to do, it is not against the law. The police burst into his location and kicked him - he may not have been fully awake or even aware of what was going on.

In that situation, the police literally created the threat. IMO, they should be held accountable. Even if they are not charged, those officers should face some discipline.

3) work to establish or re-establish more trust between the police and their communities.

For that those communities need to do their part. Like stop glorifying thugs. George Floyd does not deserve statues. Daunte Wright was not the "Prince of Brooklyn Center".

Mr. Floyd was not a thug. On the other hand. Mr. Chauvin is.

The police work the community, not the other way around. Most citizens are honest and law-abiding but the police are losing their trust. It is up the police to rebuild that trust - it is part of the fucking job.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's a tragic situation, but the family should blame Mekhi Speed for this tragedy, not the police.

Teenager wanted in connection with no-knock warrant that led to Amir Locke's death was his cousin

The problem is the use of no-knock warrants in the first place.

I do not have a problem with the police shooting when someone comes up with a gun. I do have a problem with them being in a situation to startle someone into such a reaction in the first place.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

3) work to establish or re-establish more trust between the police and their communities.

For that those communities need to do their part. Like stop glorifying thugs. George Floyd does not deserve statues. Daunte Wright was not the "Prince of Brooklyn Center".

George Floyd served his time and was on the right side of the law for some years until he was caught with counterfeit bills.

Derec, I'm sure that your "criminal past" defense would allow a heck of a lot of murderers to get away scot-free.

Just because he wasn't caught doesn't mean he was on the right side of the law. The drugs in his system the day he died certainly weren't legal.

 

[Jarhyn]

. That's bad luck on his part, but does not change the fact that police have the right to defend themselves

And citizens have the right to file civil suits.

Police should not have the right to attack people until they are defending themselves from an executed attack.

Anything else is just... Attack.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Having a gun in one's hand is not necessarily a threat. Whether you like it or not. Mr. Locke broke no law - he was asleep with a gun in his hand. While I think it is a stupid thing to do, it is not against the law. The police burst into his location and kicked him - he may not have been fully awake or even aware of what was going on.

In that situation, the police literally created the threat. IMO, they should be held accountable. Even if they are not charged, those officers should face some discipline.

Being not fully awake is not a defense. You sleep with a gun, you're responsible for mishandling it when half awake.

 

[Patooka]

Being not fully awake is not a defense. You sleep with a gun, you're responsible for mishandling it when half awake.

But the police are totally not responsible for creating that situation in the first fucking place. Citizens need to be held to a higher standard than police in other words.

I have some issue with that. I'd elaborate, but what's the fucking point.

 

[laughing dog]

Having a gun in one's hand is not necessarily a threat. Whether you like it or not. Mr. Locke broke no law - he was asleep with a gun in his hand. While I think it is a stupid thing to do, it is not against the law. The police burst into his location and kicked him - he may not have been fully awake or even aware of what was going on.

In that situation, the police literally created the threat. IMO, they should be held accountable. Even if they are not charged, those officers should face some discipline.

Being not fully awake is not a defense. You sleep with a gun, you're responsible for mishandling it when half awake.

Mr. Locke did not mishandle his firearm. The police saw the gun and fired at him. If anyone mishandled a firearm, it was the police.

 

[lpetrich]

Those cops should have fallen back and hidden behind the walls near the door. This was not worth risking one's life over.

Maybe I'm naive about urban warfare, but I've played lots of first-person shooters, and hiding behind stuff is a good thing to do.

 

[Derec]

Those cops should have fallen back and hidden behind the walls near the door. This was not worth risking one's life over.

Maybe I'm naive about urban warfare, but I've played lots of first-person shooters, and hiding behind stuff is a good thing to do.

They can still be hit even when hiding behind interior walls. Concealment != cover.