Politics of not wanting your child to marry a transgender person

[repoman]

Somehow I got reminded of an old Jamie Kennedy Experiment bit where Jamie played a a transgender bride to get married in Las Vegas and the groom had set up his family to be pranked. At the time I laughed so hard I literally almost fell out of my chair.



So, basically I think that while it is good for the transgender to be married and not live alone with all the problems that come from that, what about the cis man? Can he do better?

Also, the parents are wanting genetic grandchildren I assume. (My opinion about massive overpopulation doesn't matter to regular people obviously).

Imagine that there was a real video made now (in the time of instant outrage internet culture) of parents rationally trying to persuade a son not to marry a transwoman with no insults or slurs thrown in. Would the parents be publicly shamed or in danger of losing their jobs? How far does this rabbit hole go?

 

[Keith&Co.]

what about the cis man? Can he do better?

'Do Better?'

Where, exactly, has he settled for 'lesser' or 'worse?'

If you're marrying someone, i'd hope it was for the person, not which locker room they kept their gym clothes in during high school. Shared interests, shared sense of humor (or at least overlapping), sex, someone's hoping for a good cook....

 

[dystopian]

If you're a parent, and your child wants to marry a convicted serial killer whose victims all look exactly like your child... then yeah, it makes perfect sense to try and talk them out of it. Or if they appear to want to marry someone with a proven trackrecord of getting them into all sorts of trouble like heroin addictions or what not. Sure, that's probably a situation where you might want to talk some sense into them...

...if on the other hand the only "bad" trait of your child's fiance is that they're transgendered; then I really don't see what the fuck the problem is. If you'd try to get your child to reject the happiness he's found over such a fact or you not getting genetic grandchildren out of it, then you're an asshole who deserves whatever mockery the public heaps on you.

 

[Togo]

I can't see any issue beyond one of an inability for them to have children.

Which is true of a great many non-trans people, so it's hardly unique to them. Would you put pressure on someone to get divorced, if they were infertile?

 

[Trausti]

How would this be different than the politics of your child marrying a gay or lesbian person?

 

[prideandfall]

How would this be different than the politics of your child marrying a gay or lesbian person?

or a black person? or a jew? or someone outside their religious group?

maybe... maybe... parents, and everyone else for that matter, should get their noses the mother living fuck out of the business of what other people are doing with their relationships.

 

[Keith&Co.]

How would this be different than the politics of your child marrying a gay or lesbian person?

My wife is older than I am, far better educated, better traveled, better at computers, a better religious background, black, better read, religious and had better control over her finances when we met.

My Dad's biggest worry was that at the time we married, it was a mixed marriage: I was a submarine Weaponeer and she was surface fleet, from Supply.

 

[Sajara]

How would this be different than the politics of your child marrying a gay or lesbian person?

My wife is older than I am, far better educated, better traveled, better at computers, a better religious background, black, better read, religious and had better control over her finances when we met.

My Dad's biggest worry was that at the time we married, it was a mixed marriage: I was a submarine Weaponeer and she was surface fleet, from Supply.

Yeah...but what was HER dad's biggest worry ;p

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

Imagine that there was a real video made now (in the time of instant outrage internet culture) of parents rationally trying to persuade a son not to marry a transwoman with no insults or slurs thrown in. Would the parents be publicly shamed...

Yes, by part of the population. There is still a lot of misapprehension regarding transgender (and other genderqueer) identities, so vocal parties from both sides would chime in, I am sure.

...or in danger of losing their jobs?

Probably not. Unless they are in some very visible position which has a very liberal concern about their image on equality issues, I highly doubt they would have their livelihood threatened for this.

How far does this rabbit hole go?

As far as bigotry, I guess. It's one thing if a person themselves doesn't want to marry a transgender person, and for reasons good and bad alike, that's their deal. But not wanting your kid to marry the person they love because of your own prejudices is not only bigotry, but really being a fucking dick of a parent. You had your own life to live how you saw fit. Now your kids get to make their own calls, and while a parent may worry about certain things, your (presumably) adult child can make their own choice on whom to marry. I could see being concerned if your child's spouse was abusive or something, but transgender identity presents no inherent risk to anyone.

Can he do better?

No. If that's the person you want to marry, then that's the person you want to marry. Settling in marriage has nothing to do with being cisgender or transgender.

Also, the parents are wanting genetic grandchildren I assume.

Having genetic offspring may still being in the cards in various ways depending, just as in marriages between two cisgender people, on the individuals involved and their specific situations. I could explain in greater detail if you like, but maybe you'd be better served trying to think a little more on what you said and why it doesn't make all that much sense.

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

I can't see any issue beyond one of an inability for them to have children.

This may or may not be the case depending on the family in question. If a cisgender woman marries a transwoman who, prior to any surgery (and most likely prior to hormone therapy) had sperm stored, it would be possible for those two married individuals to have genetic offspring with each other. If a cisgender man marries a transman, the same may also be true depending on what steps have been taken. If a cis man marries a transwoman, that cis-gender man could still have genetic children if he was fertile through a surrogate, and if the transwoman had sperm frozen, she could do the same. I'm going to stop listing scenarios right here even though there are quite a few more. Granted, in most cases it's not quite the same plug and play scenario you typically have with a heterosexual cisgender couple, but there are different scenarios which exist, which, as you pointed out, is not unique to transgender people.

 

[credoconsolans]

How would this be different than the politics of your child marrying a gay or lesbian person?

One of those long Friday afternoons at the office, we held an unofficial poll. Would you rather your son be a murderer or gay?

Consensus?

"Well, if he's not, like, a serial killer..."

 

[repoman]

The point is that a man who would marry a feminine MTF is likely heterosexual, so why not marry a biological woman? A biological woman is in line with his orientation - and is he falling for a glitch in male visual stimulation?

It would be sad from the point of view from the MTF to lose a relationship, but some parent's first instinct is not to care about it - and to have their son marry/date a biological woman instead. Granted, the son being alone would be worse than having a marriage to an MTF.

Maybe this is more about box checking that parents do - like race, religion or career of potential spouses.

Has anyone seen the clip? I am somewhat unsure if it is a real candid prank on the parents or just really good acting, but after the initial shock and grief there is true love and maybe acceptance for the son's choice.

I am also asking if the initial feelings of the parents means that they are "bad people".

ETA, I watched the first 30 seconds of the clip again, and I don't see how that shot could have been made without a big professional camera that is only 5-7 feet away.

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

The point is that a man who would marry a feminine MTF is likely heterosexual, so why not marry a biological woman? A biological woman is in line with his orientation - and is he falling for a glitch in male visual stimulation?

What the fuck? People aren't that interchangeable and orientations are not that simplistic, binary and narrow. Have you never been in love or at least infatuated? Not even once? I mean, if you meet a transgender person and you don't find that particular person attractive in which ever ways matter to you, cool. But if you are into them -- who cares why --, are you going to toss aside an entire person because you think your orientation demands it or your visual response is playing tricks on you?

I am also asking if the initial feelings of the parents means that they are "bad people".

Not inherently. It's not always important though. If you're transgender, you meet a lot of people with prejudices against you. I'm sure they all have backstories and explanations and blah, blah, blah, but the reality is, you've got your own problems to deal with and there's a limit to how much you can weigh every person's sob story. Sometimes it's not about whether people are good or bad, but rather how much respect and consideration you have available for the countless number of people who show you none themselves.

 

[Keith&Co.]

The point is that a man who would marry a feminine MTF is likely heterosexual,

I think if you've got a man whose going to marry a former man, the last thing you can say is that anything about his sexuality is 'likely.' There are just so many variables, about her status as a woman, his interests, their mutual needs and compromises....

so why not marry a biological woman? A biological woman is in line with his orientation - and is he falling for a glitch in male visual stimulation?

Wow.
That's just....
I just imagine that someone had said to me, "You're white, why not marry a white woman? She'd be more in line with your economic status and neighborhood. And you won't be interrupted by waiters who think you're two different parties waiting to be seated."

Maybe the trans' gender issue is really important to the groom, and something he's excited by or attracted to.
Or maybe it's the least important thing about the match because she understands his obscure Shakespearean puns and laughs with him when all around him just roll their eyes.
Who knows, really?

I am also asking if the initial feelings of the parents means that they are "bad people".

No.
It means they were surprised, that's all.
No one prepared them for 'what will you do if your son brings home a transgender?
Same way no one really sits and thinks, "what will i do if my son starts to treat a sex doll as his realio-trulio girlfriend?"
Or any of a number of questions we just won't have an answer for. Not a prepared one, anyway.

Seriously, every time you think you've got a handle on this parenting shit, your kid will blindside you with a desire to get a degree in shooting dead chickens at jet engines, or ask if someone can incorporate themselves as a business, then get four wives and call them his board of directors? Or something else. NEVER what you planned for them to'surprise' you with.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

In this world of ordinary people...
Extraordinary people,
I'm glad there is you.

In this world of overrated pleasures
And underrated treasures,
I'm glad there is you.

I live to love,
I love to live with you beside me
This role, so new
I'll muddle through with you
If you'll guide me through.

In this world where many, many play at love
And hardly any stay in love,
I'm glad there is you.

More than ever, I'm glad there is you.

I'm Glad There Is You is a song written by Jimmy Dorsey and Paul Madeira (sometimes credited as Paul Mertz) first published in 1941.

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

You're white, why not marry a white woman? She'd be more in line with your economic status and neighborhood. And you won't be interrupted by waiters who think you're two different parties waiting to be seated.

Look, it's nothing against your wife, but I'm worried you're just suffering a visual glitch in which your white brain is tricked into thinking she's just very tan. It sounds like you may have been together for a really long time and I don't know either of you, but I think it's pretty clear that a somewhat whimsical line of reasoning based on an oversimplified and dodgy premise should at least be pause for thought.

 

[Unbeatable]

The point is that a man who would marry a feminine MTF is likely heterosexual, so why not marry a biological woman? A biological woman is in line with his orientation - and is he falling for a glitch in male visual stimulation?

I think you're looking at it backwards. He's marrying the transwoman. That's fairly decent evidence that he's attracted to her features. Supposing the transwoman altered her appearance in order to have those features, so what? Tons of "biological women" also alter their appearances in order to have particular features. If a man marries one of them, is he falling for a glitch in male visual stimulation?

Also, this idea that he's likely "heterosexual"-- are you sure? Sexual orientation is highly politicized these days. Even some homosexuals are bigoted against bisexuals. I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of people identifying as heterosexual were actually something other than a 0 on the Kinsey scale.

I am also asking if the initial feelings of the parents means that they are "bad people".

As questionable as the straight/gay and masculine/feminine dichotomies are, the "good person"/"bad person" dichotomy makes them look practically reasonable by comparison. It's an insanely false dichotomy. Human beings are not two-dimensional D&D archetypes.

 

[repoman]

Oh, so interchanging race for gender makes sense for rhetorical arguments? Gender is much more basal to the human experience.

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

Oh, so interchanging race for gender makes sense for rhetorical arguments? Gender is much more basal to the human experience.

We aren't talking about the human experience in some broad sense; we're talking about the experience of individuals. At times two individuals connect and at times one of them is a cisgender male and one is a transgender female. It's up to those two individuals to decide if it's enough for them, and like all people they may get it right and they may get it wrong for a whole host of reasons. But what you've done is dehumanized the transgender woman and distilled her to a single trait think hey, it's cool if she gets to marry, but can he do better? What if she's better looking? Smarter? Funnier? More successful and financially stable? More generous? More emotionally supportive? Is better educated?

Can't she do better?

Maybe, but just as with her male counterpart, it's up to her to be honest about what she wants and who makes her happy. Talking about the 'basal human experience' in that scenario is nothing short of mental cowardice; a refusal to look at your own situation -- or in the case of the parents, their child's situation -- and really look at what applies to them in a complex interpersonal relationship. By the time two people get engaged, you'd hope they know whom they intend to marry and can see them as a whole person and not just some gender identity which they are trying to optimize based off of some generic human template. With billions of people having existed, there are all sorts of fantastical exceptions to normative experiences. Being trans is one of them, and because of that, being in a committed relationship with someone who is trans is an exception experience as well. For those who find happiness in either path, what is there really to question about it? It's two people hopefully in love. Don't worry about it.

I get why people have questions about being transgender. It makes sense people are interested in hormones, or surgery, or specific social and legal challenges, or sexual stimulation. Not saying one should always pry into these parts of a transgender person's life, but I get it. These things actually have some facets specific to being transgender, but why is it even basic human connections like love and romance need to be questioned on the basis of being trans? It's a human emotion and transgender people experience it within the same gamut of experiences cisgender people have. Being transgender, when people do find that bond in sincerity, should not diminish that experience for either party. Not at the point when people are getting engaged, at the very least.

 

[dystopian]

Gender is much more basal to the human experience.

Ah yes. Of course.

"No no no, I'm not acting like a bigot! It's just that hating on these people is more justified than hating on those other people because those other people are only slightly different while these people are way more different. You see? It's totally not the same thing you guys!"