Portland radicals deface and topple statue of George Washington

[Derec]

I know one statue that is probably going to be safe from the purge by the cultural revolutionaries:



But who knows. Maybe they are more Troskyite ...

 

[Trausti]

It doesn't matter the reason! “Destroy the old world! Establish the new!”

The reasons people do things don't matter?

Ignorance is not a virtue. It's not bliss, either. It's just being stupid on purpose.

You think the revolutionary mob is rational? Hah! Once society has granted them a license to destroy, it's everything in their sights.

 

[Trausti]

I know one statue that is probably going to be safe from the purge by the cultural revolutionaries:

View attachment 28283

But who knows. Maybe they are more Troskyite ...

I've been to the Lenin statue. I always viewed it as Soviet kitsch, not to be taken seriously. Some guy bought it from Czechoslovakia after the fall to spare it from scrap. I don't think it should come down. Nor do I think all these other statues should come down. If all statues to flawed men must topple, then there would be no statues at all.

 

[Arctish]

It doesn't matter the reason! “Destroy the old world! Establish the new!”

The reasons people do things don't matter?

Ignorance is not a virtue. It's not bliss, either. It's just being stupid on purpose.

You think the revolutionary mob is rational? Hah! Once society has granted them a license to destroy, it's everything in their sights.

You're the one who thinks reasons don't matter.

You're a lot closer to that mindset than I am. If you find that it bothers you, perhaps you should reconsider your stance.

 

[Bomb#20]

They're monuments to somebody who allegedly currently owns 7.8 billion slaves.

Allah doesn't have a body. Allah never had a body. Describing Allah as "somebody" is heresy. Only Christians think the One True God had a body and needed to perform all those disgusting bodily functions, which just goes to show how stupid Christianity is.

I stand corrected. Sorry, I meant some One, not some Body. I was misled by the illogical quirks of English, as the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis would predict; only the One Perfect Language is immune to such foibles; alas, I am too old to learn to speak it.

Because mosques aren't "monuments to those who once owned slaves"?

Exactly which part of the word "Islam" don't you understand? Come to think of it, once schmonce. They're monuments to somebody who allegedly currently owns 7.8 billion slaves.

I don't think governments should engage in religious partisanship. Save your religious quibbles for philosophy class.

TFT is philosophy class. And a government allowing people to vandalize monuments to human slavers but forbidding them to vandalize monuments to divine slavers is engaging in religious partisanship.

 

[Trausti]

You think the revolutionary mob is rational? Hah! Once society has granted them a license to destroy, it's everything in their sights.

You're the one who thinks reasons don't matter.

You're a lot closer to that mindset than I am. If you find that it bothers you, perhaps you should reconsider your stance.

Ahh, I've made multiple references to the Cultural Revolution and Red Guards. You think I support this shit?

 

[Arctish]

You think the revolutionary mob is rational? Hah! Once society has granted them a license to destroy, it's everything in their sights.

You're the one who thinks reasons don't matter.

You're a lot closer to that mindset than I am. If you find that it bothers you, perhaps you should reconsider your stance.

Ahh, I've made multiple references to the Cultural Revolution and Red Guards. You think I support this shit?

I think you'd rather not look too closely at the reasons protesters targeted statues of Ulysses S. Grant and Francis Scott Key because you might find those reasons valid and you'd rather not agree with them on anything.

 

[Derec]

The reasons people do things don't matter?

Trausti was obviously mocking the far left cultural revolutionaries. And the "reasons don't matter" attitude has been voiced, in earnest, by Oakland mayor Libby Schaaf over some exercise equipment rigging that she views as a "hate crime".

Ignorance is not a virtue. It's not bliss, either. It's just being stupid on purpose.

So you are agreeing with Trausti that the statue-smashers are idiotic?

 

[Derec]

I think you'd rather not look too closely at the reasons protesters targeted statues of Ulysses S. Grant and Francis Scott Key because you might find those reasons valid and you'd rather not agree with them on anything.

What would those reasons be, pray tell?

 

[Trausti]

Ahh, I've made multiple references to the Cultural Revolution and Red Guards. You think I support this shit?

I think you'd rather not look too closely at the reasons protesters targeted statues of Ulysses S. Grant and Francis Scott Key because you might find those reasons valid and you'd rather not agree with them on anything.

Reasons? This is a mob. And the authorities have signaled their tacit approval of the mob’s violence. So any justification to destroy will do. We were told that Confederate statues must come down because these were traitors to the Republic. Now we are told that statues to the founders of the Republic must come down. And statues to those who fought the Confederacy to preserve the Republic must fall, too. Destroy the old, indeed.

 

[Arctish]

The reasons people do things don't matter?

Trausti was obviously mocking the far left cultural revolutionaries. And the "reasons don't matter" attitude has been voiced, in earnest, by Oakland mayor Libby Schaaf over some exercise equipment rigging that she views as a "hate crime".

My mined quote detector is pinging.

The reasons for what don't matter? The reason for putting something up? The reasons for taking it down? What was the entire sentence and/or thought she was expressing?

Ignorance is not a virtue. It's not bliss, either. It's just being stupid on purpose.

So you are agreeing with Trausti that the statue-smashers are idiotic?

Only if they're ignorant about the reason why some folks are putting Ulysses S. Grant and Francis Scott Key in the same category as Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis, and why they think those statues should no longer stand.

Because if they know the reasons, they're not ignorant.

 

[Politesse]

As for the Lenin statue, it's on private property so the city can't remove it, but it is also for sale, so if it really bothers you, you could just start a Gofundme and send it to the scrapyard yourself. Last time I saw it, his hands were painted red to indicate his culpability in the mass slaughters etc, do not know if that is still true.

Grant was a slave-owner, and had wildly inconsistent views on slavery over time. Personally, I would be more willing to give him the benefit of a doubt, as he never purchased a slave and ultimately manumitted his personal servant and encouraged his wife to do likewise, which she did. But people are not in a calm mood, and may not have actually known whose statue they were removing quite frankly. If they did though, I mean, the case could be made if people aren't in a forgiving mood. Which they clearly aren't.

Francis Scott Key was an amoral piece of shit by most rational measures, and definitely involved in the slave trade, up to his bloody forearm. He was both a slave-owner himself, and a lawyer who specialized in defending slave institutions against legal challenges by freedmen and abolitionists. In later life, he "went on the offensive", suing up a storm; at one point, he pressed to have a man hanged until dead for possessing abolitionist pamphlets on his person. I have a lower opinion of Key than of Serra.

And his anthem is crap, too, it's too jingoistic and hardly anyone can sing it without sounding like a bird getting strangled. Personally, I'd have picked "America the Beautiful" for the anthem, more positive in its message and considerably easier on the voice and ears. It's also at least partially Key's fault that "In God We Trust" is sour national motto and stamped on all our currency, a fact that I know offends many on this site.

 

[repoman]

Ahh, I've made multiple references to the Cultural Revolution and Red Guards. You think I support this shit?

I think you'd rather not look too closely at the reasons protesters targeted statues of Ulysses S. Grant and Francis Scott Key because you might find those reasons valid and you'd rather not agree with them on anything.

Reasons? This is a mob. And the authorities have signaled their tacit approval of the mob’s violence. So any justification to destroy will do. We were told that Confederate statues must come down because these were traitors to the Republic. Now we are told that statues to the founders of the Republic must come down. And statues to those who fought the Confederacy to preserve the Republic must fall, too. Destroy the old, indeed.

On Juneteenth no less. Redskin grievances trumping negro gratitude.

Ethnic partition now.

 

[Metaphor]

The reasons the mob has for toppling statues are irrelevant. No reason can legitimise their actions. If a city wants to remove statues from public land, it can decide the motion at the same time they rename streets and approve the new skate park and designate the off-leash status of public greenspaces.

Good fucking god, marauding gangs are not democracy.

 

[Derec]

As for the Lenin statue, it's on private property so the city can't remove it, but it is also for sale, so if it really bothers you, you could just start a Gofundme and send it to the scrapyard yourself. Last time I saw it, his hands were painted red to indicate his culpability in the mass slaughters etc, do not know if that is still true.

Who said that it really bothered me? I just said that it was probably safe, given the commie leanings of the statue toppler crowd. Then again, Lenin might not be safe from the Trotskyite faction of the communist movement.

Grant was a slave-owner, and had wildly inconsistent views on slavery over time. Personally, I would be more willing to give him the benefit of a doubt, as he never purchased a slave and ultimately manumitted his personal servant and encouraged his wife to do likewise, which she did. But people are not in a calm mood, and may not have actually known whose statue they were removing quite frankly. If they did though, I mean, the case could be made if people aren't in a forgiving mood. Which they clearly aren't.

So basically, you are saying his statue is either toppled because Grant is not perfect or else because the topplers are just toppling all statues not even knowing what they are doing?

Francis Scott Key was an amoral piece of shit by most rational measures,

Did you mean to write "immoral"?

and definitely involved in the slave trade, up to his bloody forearm. He was both a slave-owner himself, and a lawyer who specialized in defending slave institutions against legal challenges by freedmen and abolitionists. In later life, he "went on the offensive", suing up a storm; at one point, he pressed to have a man hanged until dead for possessing abolitionist pamphlets on his person. I have a lower opinion of Key than of Serra.

From the wiki article:

Key purchased his first slave in 1800 or 1801 and owned six slaves in 1820.[28] He freed seven slaves in the 1830s, one of whom continued to work for him for wages as his farm's foreman, supervising several slaves.[29] Key also represented several slaves seeking their freedom, as well as several slave-owners seeking return of their runaway slaves.[8][30] Key was one of the executors of John Randolph of Roanoke's will, which freed his 400 slaves, and Key fought to enforce the will for the next decade and to provide the freed slaves with land to support themselves.[31]

So much more of a mixed bag than you are presenting and like Washington, Jefferson and Grant, very much a person of his time.

And his anthem is crap, too, it's too jingoistic and hardly anyone can sing it without sounding like a bird getting strangled. Personally, I'd have picked "America the Beautiful" for the anthem, more positive in its message and considerably easier on the voice and ears. It's also at least partially Key's fault that "In God We Trust" is sour national motto and stamped on all our currency, a fact that I know offends many on this site.

The currency motto did not happen until a century after Key's death.

 

[Derec]

The reasons the mob has for toppling statues are irrelevant. No reason can legitimise their actions. If a city wants to remove statues from public land, it can decide the motion at the same time they rename streets and approve the new skate park and designate the off-leash status of public greenspaces.

Good fucking god, marauding gangs are not democracy.

Exactly. Well said.
We can have a conversation (and a vote) on what statues should be in public spaces, but mob action should not be tolerated.

 

[Ford]

Well that settles it, then.

All of these protests and demonstrations are invalid, because a small minority of participants did something stupid.

Systemic racism? Not a problem anymore. George Washington statue!

Confederacy completely wrong? Nope. George Washington statue defaced!

Police brutality towards black people? Jesus, do you see what radicals did to George?



See, now everyone protesting is a radical George Soros-paid Antifa agitator and the whole shebang is illegitimate! Blue lives matter! (Mr. Pence, do black lives matter? "I'm not quite there yet. I'm still angry over the Supreme Court ruling in favor of the gays.")

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Racism and police brutality are legitimate issues to normal decent human beings.

George Washington wasn't perfect, but then nobody is. He was still a great man who does not deserve this bullshit.

On the other hand, the Far Left has just given Trump a TV commercial or two.
View attachment 28274

That response is a perfect example of my point - focus on the bark on the trees instead of the forest.

He's got a valid point--extremist behavior will push voters to the other side. It's the same as His Flatulence pushing people away from the Republicans.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Racism and police brutality are legitimate issues to normal decent human beings.

George Washington wasn't perfect, but then nobody is. He was still a great man who does not deserve this bullshit.

On the other hand, the Far Left has just given Trump a TV commercial or two.
View attachment 28274

That response is a perfect example of my point - focus on the bark on the trees instead of the forest.

He's got a valid point--extremist behavior will push voters to the other side. It's the same as His Flatulence pushing people away from the Republicans.

If Assbag in Chief gets reelected it isn't the end of the world. This past week saw him pissing himself with all the losses he took.

 

[Politesse]

The reasons the mob has for toppling statues are irrelevant. No reason can legitimise their actions. If a city wants to remove statues from public land, it can decide the motion at the same time they rename streets and approve the new skate park and designate the off-leash status of public greenspaces.

Good fucking god, marauding gangs are not democracy.

Exactly. Well said.
We can have a conversation (and a vote) on what statues should be in public spaces, but mob action should not be tolerated.

YEAH! Fuck the Constitution! No more mobs!