Preponderance of the evidence

[Toni]

Denning took place in the UK so is not applicable to the U.S.

That is completely irrelevant. The same definition of "preponderance of evidence" applies in the US and requires nothing more than the claim itself being deemed more likely true than false, regardless of whether any supporting evidence exists. In fact, we can assume that even though people lie, any random utterance about what one person saw another person do is more likely to be true than false. For example, of all the times anyone has said "I saw person X today", they probably were telling the truth and did see person X more than 50% of the time. This means that unless the assertion violates what we know is possible, nearly every accusation starts out already meeting this standard prior to any evidence being presented. Thus, the burden is on the accused to prove their innocence.

Preponderance of evidence in the U.S. is used in civil, not criminal cases. As explained before.

Further, preponderance of evidence is the standard required in most civil cases. Please not that expulsion from a university is not a criminal case.

The nature of the punishment does not define whether one is being found guilty of a crime. The student is being expelled under the assumption that they committed a criminal act. The fact that the University is employing it own methods and not relying upon the courts to determine whether the criminal act was committed does not change this fact. The University is ignoring both civil and criminal courts on the matter by deciding it themselves, so it is not a civil case or criminal case by that standard. It is in its nature, however, an accusation of a crime rather than a dispute over competing claims that characterize most civil cases, thus the same logic that makes a "preponderance" of the evidence" standard reasonable for civil disputes by grossly unjust and against the presumption of innocence for criminal cases applies to the determination that the University is making (especially as an arm of the State) that the accused committed the crime for which they are being punished.

You are incorrect: a student is expelled because the university finds the student has violated the university code of conduct, to which all students agree to comply as a term of their student status at the university.

 

[Deepak]

Is preponderance of evidence ever used to determine sentencing?

Yes, with the exception being in criminal cases. Depending on the jurisdiction it's used quite often in administrative, punitive, and depending on the location in situations involving non-criminal penal sentencing.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

You are incorrect: a student is expelled because the university finds the student has violated the university code of conduct, to which all students agree to comply as a term of their student status at the university.

You mean the university has found it more likely than not that the student has violated the university code of conduct. Do you think that should be sufficient to expel the student? If so, why?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You are incorrect: a student is expelled because the university finds the student has violated the university code of conduct, to which all students agree to comply as a term of their student status at the university.

Found by a preponderance of the evidence standard.

The whole point of this thread is to show that preponderance of the evidence is not a sane rule to use for punishment.

 

[bigfield]

Is a university investigation of, and ruling on, a violation of the code of conduct the same as a civil court case?

 

[Deepak]

Is a university investigation of, and ruling on, a violation of the code of conduct the same as a civil court case?

No. I'm sure there are multiple procedural and evidentiary differences, both between the university & courts and also variation between universities. As well some civil court cases actually require higher standards to render a verdict (ex. fraud)

 

[bigfield]

Is a university investigation of, and ruling on, a violation of the code of conduct the same as a civil court case?

No. I'm sure there are multiple procedural and evidentiary differences, both between the university & courts and also variation between universities. As well some civil court cases actually require higher standards to render a verdict (ex. fraud)

I ask because several posters have claimed that university rulings should use a preponderance of the evidence standard because that is the standard (usually) used by civil cases. But if they are not the same then why should they share the same standards for rulings?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Lets take a look at the implications of using this standard to convict someone, even if jail time isn't involved:


We have a video:

Person A uses a computer to do an assignment. They finish it and print it out. They log off, person B sits down. They recover the file, put their own name on it and print it out, then have person C do likewise.

The teacher gets three identical papers.

From looking at the video it's clear that A had no part of the impropriety but B & C are in cahoots. Unfortunately, this happened on a day with a school spirit activity going on, all three were wearing clown makeup so there's no way to figure out who is who.

So we have video evidence that explicitly shows that Person A didn't download a paper from the Internet and actually typed their own assignment, but we don't have enough evidence from the video to see which of the students is whom, based on height, build, hair color?

Since when is punishing the guilty is more important than not punishing the innocent?

When it's an accusation of rape in college.

This is a spinoff from the rape thread that I felt was better done as a separate thread.

Nothing like crappy parallels. If one wanted to address the issue with due process in such cases, there are much better ways of making a case than the mindless OP above.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So we have video evidence that explicitly shows that Person A didn't download a paper from the Internet and actually typed their own assignment, but we don't have enough evidence from the video to see which of the students is whom, based on height, build, hair color?

You missed the fact that they were all dressed up for a school event--the camera caught their costumes, not their actual appearance.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

What if two identical twins hand in the same paper? You see who they are and you know that one of them cheated. How do you determine who to expel? Or, does it matter since they're basically redundant and it nobody really cares which one of them sticks around.

 

[Deepak]

What if two identical twins hand in the same paper? You see who they are and you know that one of them cheated. How do you determine who to expel? Or, does it matter since they're basically redundant and it nobody really cares which one of them sticks around.

It's obviously the evil one.

 

[laughing dog]

Is a university investigation of, and ruling on, a violation of the code of conduct the same as a civil court case?

No.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So we have video evidence that explicitly shows that Person A didn't download a paper from the Internet and actually typed their own assignment, but we don't have enough evidence from the video to see which of the students is whom, based on height, build, hair color?

You missed the fact that they were all dressed up for a school event--the camera caught their costumes, not their actual appearance.

No, you said makeup, which obscures their face, not their height, hair color, general body build, and general facial features.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What if two identical twins hand in the same paper? You see who they are and you know that one of them cheated. How do you determine who to expel? Or, does it matter since they're basically redundant and it nobody really cares which one of them sticks around.

Good one, lets replace my original scenario with identical triplets.

- - - Updated - - -

You missed the fact that they were all dressed up for a school event--the camera caught their costumes, not their actual appearance.

No, you said makeup, which obscures their face, not their height, hair color, general body build, and general facial features.

I said "clown makeup"--you'll still get height but not much more.

 

[Sabine Grant]

I found an informative read regarding the controversy surrounding the application of Article IX at Columbia University :

http://bwog.com/2014/01/23/accessib...an-examination-of-sexual-assault-at-columbia/

( a link to part 2 is provided in the opening paragraph).

And before there is any outcry about "radical feminists", the variety of reports includes male victims.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I found an informative read regarding the controversy surrounding the application of Article IX at Columbia University :

http://bwog.com/2014/01/23/accessib...an-examination-of-sexual-assault-at-columbia/

( a link to part 2 is provided in the opening paragraph).

And before there is any outcry about "radical feminists", the variety of reports includes male victims.

It's enough to see they have no business doing such an investigation in the first place.

 

[fromderinside]

Good one, lets replace my original scenario with identical triplets.

- - - Updated - - -

You missed the fact that they were all dressed up for a school event--the camera caught their costumes, not their actual appearance.

No, you said makeup, which obscures their face, not their height, hair color, general body build, and general facial features.

I said "clown makeup"--you'll still get height but not much more.

Really? I'm not so sure you could say that if you accept the one in front, not unreasonable, is the before makeup individual.

Here we have problems with preponderance, magnitude, and height of evidence.

applying the above to your scenario? well the whole town could be in on it . So repeat the assignment after getting everyone to destroy their previous projects then redo them while you watch. I'm sure the guilty ones will fail in carrying out all the tasks required to replicate their projects.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Good one, lets replace my original scenario with identical triplets.

- - - Updated - - -

You missed the fact that they were all dressed up for a school event--the camera caught their costumes, not their actual appearance.

No, you said makeup, which obscures their face, not their height, hair color, general body build, and general facial features.

I said "clown makeup"--you'll still get height but not much more.

Really? I'm not so sure you could say that if you accept the one in front, not unreasonable, is the before makeup individual.

Here we have problems with preponderance, magnitude, and height of evidence.

applying the above to your scenario? well the whole town could be in on it . So repeat the assignment after getting everyone to destroy their previous projects then redo them while you watch. I'm sure the guilty ones will fail in carrying out all the tasks required to replicate their projects.

is more what I had in mind.