Price Waterhouse analyst murdered in his home by police

[dismal]

So, Don, you think this woman went through her building opening doors looking for Black people to shoot knowing she could fall back on this wonderful alibi?

Since we now have 2 threads on this trying to make this about the guy's race, I'm trying to work out exactly how people are assuming race figures in.

dismal, it's about race because many white Americans and many cop Americans see black and think "Danger! Thug!" with lethal consequences. They need to stop thinking that way, because too many innocent people are dying from it.

By contrast, when the victim is white... well, by contrast they usually aren't victims of this because the police stop and evaluate when the victim is white.

That's how race plays into it. It's another case of "oh! He was black and that scared me into shooting him! Everybody's cool with that, right?"

- - - Updated - - -

but on the bright side, since she falsely accused him of a crime and the penalty was death - now we already know what Loren and Derec think her sentence should be. So that saves a lot of arguing.

Huh? Are you in the right thread?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

dismal doesn't see race.

 

[dismal]

dismal doesn't see race.

This thread is not about me.

You have been asked several questions:

Why do you think the victim's race was relevant?
What do you think is the political issue here?

Recall: You started a thread about this incident on a political discussion forum invoking race. Presumably you have some intention of discussing what you posted instead of personally attacking other posters.

 

[Rhea]

dismal, it's about race because many white Americans and many cop Americans see black and think "Danger! Thug!" with lethal consequences. They need to stop thinking that way, because too many innocent people are dying from it.

By contrast, when the victim is white... well, by contrast they usually aren't victims of this because the police stop and evaluate when the victim is white.

That's how race plays into it. It's another case of "oh! He was black and that scared me into shooting him! Everybody's cool with that, right?"

- - - Updated - - -

but on the bright side, since she falsely accused him of a crime and the penalty was death - now we already know what Loren and Derec think her sentence should be. So that saves a lot of arguing.

Huh? Are you in the right thread?

Yes. I am addressing your question of how race is involved.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

dismal doesn't see race.

This thread is not about me.

You have been asked several questions:

Why do you think the victim's race was relevant?
What do you think is the political issue here?

Recall: You started a thread about this incident on a political discussion forum invoking race. Presumably you have some intention of discussing what you posted instead of personally attacking other posters.

Sorry for squealing.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

dismal, it's about race because many white Americans and many cop Americans see black and think "Danger! Thug!" with lethal consequences. They need to stop thinking that way, because too many innocent people are dying from it.

By contrast, when the victim is white... well, by contrast they usually aren't victims of this because the police stop and evaluate when the victim is white.

That's how race plays into it. It's another case of "oh! He was black and that scared me into shooting him! Everybody's cool with that, right?"

- - - Updated - - -

but on the bright side, since she falsely accused him of a crime and the penalty was death - now we already know what Loren and Derec think her sentence should be. So that saves a lot of arguing.

Huh? Are you in the right thread?

Yes. I am addressing your question of how race is involved.

It doesn't matter. The usual suspects blame the black victim. Because there are no details, it's a blame of Underseer and me for bringing it up. As soon as there are sufficient details, the victim will be blamed for something. Until then, Underseer is hobbyhorsing and I am "squealing."

 

[whollygoats]

I think everyone including police should be disarmed

Yeah, I like that, too.

While we're at it, can I get that pony?

 

[Rhea]

I think everyone including police should be disarmed

Yeah, I like that, too.

While we're at it, can I get that pony?

No arms on the pony.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

so this is hitting news sites now and more details are being reported.

so the story goes: at 10pm an off-duty officer who had just gotten off shift went home, says she accidentally walked into the wrong apartment, saw someone she didn't know, and fatally shot him.
... which kind of sounds like a giant load of complete fucking bullshit to me.

the idea of going from "just coming from work" to "being in the wrong apartment and not realizing it" to "instantly pulling out a weapon and scoring a fatal shot on seeing someone" is just ludicrous to me.
i suspect there is going to end up being a story here, that the officer and victim had a history - wouldn't be surprised to find out they'd been recently dating or sleeping together or something, basically i'd be shocked if this wasn't a revenge killing that the officer is trying to play off as an accident.

This video seems to not only propose that theory but also accept it definitively. The narrator has some additional observations and it is good to see that without drawing conclusions. To me, some of these things can be explained easily but some with unlikely answers, too. So I am a little suspicious.

 

[repoman]

If this was not an accident, but a murder of someone she had any personal contact with there is almost no way it won't come out. Especially now in the internet age, unless they communicated by smoke signals or semaphore.

At any rate, I don't see much reason to speculate on this.

 

[southernhybrid]

Regardless of any other circumstances, the woman should be charged with a serious crime. I would say that manslaughter at the very least. Why didn't she just brandish her gun and ask the man what he was doing in what she thought was her apartment. He was unarmed. He could have told her that she was in the wrong apartment, then she could have put her gun away, apologized and left. Or she could have quickly run out of the apartment, and called the police, or maybe if she had done that, she would have realized her mistake and nobody would have been hurt. Instead, she overreacts, and shoots an innocent man. This police officer needs to be tried for manslaughter at the very least. If the situation was reversed. If a legally armed black man had gone into the wrong apartment by mistake, then quickly shot the white female resident, what do you think would have happened? I think if we're honest, we know exactly what would have happened, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

If this was not an accident, but a murder of someone she had any personal contact with there is almost no way it won't come out. Especially now in the internet age, unless they communicated by smoke signals or semaphore.

As I wrote, I don't buy the theory yet. So I am not sure why you would write explicitly about "murder" instead of say manslaughter or some other in-between thing that is more than an accident but less than murder. So, for example:

• it's very likely that if they lived in the same apartment building and she mistook his apartment for his, then they were right next to each other or the same door position but different floors or some other such thing;
• ........==> in which case, it is likely they knew each other.
• it's likely he did not leave his door unlocked or open because who does that where they lived and even if so, it'd be for a small window of time;
• Additionally if you watch the video, if you try to use the door and it's the wrong key, a red light shows.
• ........==> so it seems just as likely that she knew him and had access through a keypad option as that he left the door open or unlocked.
• Another point from the video, you would expect her to apply emergency first aid, but probably she didn't. I say probably because you would expect the article to mention that. so, she definitely would have realized it was not her apartment after she shot him in which case she ought to have applied emergency first aid to stop bleeding etc, but it seems likely she did not. so, is this because she was on drugs and so her rational thinking was not working or something more nefarious? or just another coincidence?
• Another point is the neighboring earwitnesses. They said they heard yelling like that of police issuing commands such as to open door and other commands. Now, I would expect the police who came later to issue commands like that upon getting there but why would the door not be open by that point. Or if it was her yelling maybe...now a side point, if she had shot him that makes noise and there would be some yelling. So if the earwitnesses heard a later command then they'd also hear the original yelling. So why are they mentioning "open up," but not the original yelling unless that WAS the original yelling? Both seem equally likely due to this logical puzzle.
• After a while you get to too many coincidences and you have to decide what narrative is more parsimonious with data and that one narrative means jumping through less hoops.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Door locks aside, I wonder if the lights were off upon her entering and whatever commotion had her reaching for her gun rather than the light switch, assuming there is a light switch immediately inside the entry.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Door locks aside, I wonder if the lights were off upon her entering and whatever commotion had her reaching for her gun rather than the light switch, assuming there is a light switch immediately inside the entry.

If the lights were off, he'd be asleep in his bed most likely or in bed winding down etc (most likely). Him rummaging around might mean using the toilet but that'd be sufficiently far from the front door and she'd have that light to turn on first, but moreover, there'd be such distance and obstructions between her and the victim that she'd have learned she was in the wrong apartment by then. Also, if the lights were off, then the door most likely would not be unlocked or open. So, this is one of those very unlikely scenarios, I think.

I don't believe this is what happened for other reasons as well and I have more info now than compared to previous posts.

https://heavy.com/news/2018/09/amber-guyger/

According to this link above, she had been a recent move-in to the apartments, living there for a month. Given that she was fairly new and had just gotten off a shift, I could see her honestly making a mistake. If she also had a drink or some pills or something at the end of her shift, that would make this very reckless, but I think logically the mistake could happen just from being very tired at the end of a work day in combination with being new at the complex. However, I will add that being new at the apartment complex and at the end of her shift means that also she should have tended to question her own judgments about where she was, mistakes she could make, etc.

The article also mentions that she tried the door and couldn't open it...meaning that she was seeing the red light from trying the wrong key. The hallway was lit as hallways tend to be in a big complex like this. The number was there of the apartment. She kept fumbling with the door over and over. Then, the victim came to the door and opened his own door because he saw a cop out there trying to open his door. Now, did she yell "Open up" thinking a burglar was in her apartment, hearing him rummage around, getting out of bed? Maybe or maybe not.

Upon his opening of the door, he would have communicated, "what are you doing here" or the same kind of thing that Trayvon Martin said "why are you following me" but in this case no one was following, so just some innocent question, maybe even angrily, since it was his apartment. So, then, why was she so threatened she had to kill him? And did she not apply emergency first aid?

If this happened at the doorway and it wasn't her that yelled Open up, but police later, then why would the door be closed? Did she chase him into his apartment and kill him there after seeing all his pictures and other things specific to his own apartment, different from hers?

Well, at this point, I tend to think she did not know him now with this extra info. I still don't see why it was necessary to shoot him, never mind kill him, and then possibly not apply emergency first aid, as we see in many, many cases of police shooting people.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Door locks aside, I wonder if the lights were off upon her entering and whatever commotion had her reaching for her gun rather than the light switch, assuming there is a light switch immediately inside the entry.

If the lights were off, he'd be asleep in his bed most likely or in bed winding down etc (most likely). Him rummaging around might mean using the toilet but that'd be sufficiently far from the front door and she'd have that light to turn on first, but moreover, there'd be such distance and obstructions between her and the victim that she'd have learned she was in the wrong apartment by then. Also, if the lights were off, then the door most likely would not be unlocked or open. So, this is one of those very unlikely scenarios, I think.

I don't believe this is what happened for other reasons as well and I have more info now than compared to previous posts.

https://heavy.com/news/2018/09/amber-guyger/

According to this link above, she had been a recent move-in to the apartments, living there for a month. Given that she was fairly new and had just gotten off a shift, I could see her honestly making a mistake. If she also had a drink or some pills or something at the end of her shift, that would make this very reckless, but I think logically the mistake could happen just from being very tired at the end of a work day in combination with being new at the complex. However, I will add that being new at the apartment complex and at the end of her shift means that also she should have tended to question her own judgments about where she was, mistakes she could make, etc.

The article also mentions that she tried the door and couldn't open it...meaning that she was seeing the red light from trying the wrong key. The hallway was lit as hallways tend to be in a big complex like this. The number was there of the apartment. She kept fumbling with the door over and over. Then, the victim came to the door and opened his own door because he saw a cop out there trying to open his door. Now, did she yell "Open up" thinking a burglar was in her apartment, hearing him rummage around, getting out of bed? Maybe or maybe not.

Upon his opening of the door, he would have communicated, "what are you doing here" or the same kind of thing that Trayvon Martin said "why are you following me" but in this case no one was following, so just some innocent question, maybe even angrily, since it was his apartment. So, then, why was she so threatened she had to kill him? And did she not apply emergency first aid?

If this happened at the doorway and it wasn't her that yelled Open up, but police later, then why would the door be closed? Did she chase him into his apartment and kill him there after seeing all his pictures and other things specific to his own apartment, different from hers?

Well, at this point, I tend to think she did not know him now with this extra info. I still don't see why it was necessary to shoot him, never mind kill him, and then possibly not apply emergency first aid, as we see in many, many cases of police shooting people.

So, she's tired, she walks up, gets off on the floor below by mistake. She's new to the complex, attempts to unlock her door. She jiggles the key and handle in frustration. Victim who was winding down for the evening had the lights off and was watching TV or on the internet. There's only the light of the monitor (This is my typical scene at 10PM). He hears the jiggling of the door lock and handle, goes to the door. Her hand is on the door handle. Maybe she gets pulled off balance and forward when he opens the door. She's startled. Her eyes are adjusted to the well lit hallway. It's dark inside and she's stumbling toward this stranger in her apartment. Her training has her instinctively pull her gun. They are very close to one another during this exchange. She shoots him.

I have no reason to believe she simply seen it as an opportunity to shoot a black man.

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

Just wait and see then.

So, in my apartment building all the floors look the same and one time I went to the wrong floor and almost put my key in. One time a resident of the either the floor above or below came opened my door that I forgot to lock. I recognized him. probably pressed the above floor and got out of the elevator with someone else on my floor. Just absent minded.

So this guy probably forgot to lock his door, she got freaked out that the door was unlocked even without the key and then got into defense mode. At that point double checking the door number should have been the first instinct. But cops nowadays they basically are pit bulls.

----------------------------

ETA

The other scenario is that the door was locked and she was making noise at his door getting her keys out of her purse. He looked through the peephole saw a uniformed cop and opened the door to ask what she needed assistance with.

So did she think a burglar would open the door when a cop was there (what floor was she on?) instead of going out the window and try to overpower her? So she switched up from keys/purse to gun very quickly.

...Not only was he intruding, but apparently he redecorated her entire apartment into something unrecognizable.

aa

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Door locks aside, I wonder if the lights were off upon her entering and whatever commotion had her reaching for her gun rather than the light switch, assuming there is a light switch immediately inside the entry.

If the lights were off, he'd be asleep in his bed most likely or in bed winding down etc (most likely). Him rummaging around might mean using the toilet but that'd be sufficiently far from the front door and she'd have that light to turn on first, but moreover, there'd be such distance and obstructions between her and the victim that she'd have learned she was in the wrong apartment by then. Also, if the lights were off, then the door most likely would not be unlocked or open. So, this is one of those very unlikely scenarios, I think.

I don't believe this is what happened for other reasons as well and I have more info now than compared to previous posts.

https://heavy.com/news/2018/09/amber-guyger/

According to this link above, she had been a recent move-in to the apartments, living there for a month. Given that she was fairly new and had just gotten off a shift, I could see her honestly making a mistake. If she also had a drink or some pills or something at the end of her shift, that would make this very reckless, but I think logically the mistake could happen just from being very tired at the end of a work day in combination with being new at the complex. However, I will add that being new at the apartment complex and at the end of her shift means that also she should have tended to question her own judgments about where she was, mistakes she could make, etc.

The article also mentions that she tried the door and couldn't open it...meaning that she was seeing the red light from trying the wrong key. The hallway was lit as hallways tend to be in a big complex like this. The number was there of the apartment. She kept fumbling with the door over and over. Then, the victim came to the door and opened his own door because he saw a cop out there trying to open his door. Now, did she yell "Open up" thinking a burglar was in her apartment, hearing him rummage around, getting out of bed? Maybe or maybe not.

Upon his opening of the door, he would have communicated, "what are you doing here" or the same kind of thing that Trayvon Martin said "why are you following me" but in this case no one was following, so just some innocent question, maybe even angrily, since it was his apartment. So, then, why was she so threatened she had to kill him? And did she not apply emergency first aid?

If this happened at the doorway and it wasn't her that yelled Open up, but police later, then why would the door be closed? Did she chase him into his apartment and kill him there after seeing all his pictures and other things specific to his own apartment, different from hers?

Well, at this point, I tend to think she did not know him now with this extra info. I still don't see why it was necessary to shoot him, never mind kill him, and then possibly not apply emergency first aid, as we see in many, many cases of police shooting people.

So, she's tired, she walks up, gets off on the floor below by mistake. She's new to the complex, attempts to unlock her door. She jiggles the key and handle in frustration. Victim who was winding down for the evening had the lights off and was watching TV or on the internet. There's only the light of the monitor (This is my typical scene at 10PM). He hears the jiggling of the door lock and handle, goes to the door. Her hand is on the door handle. Maybe she gets pulled off balance and forward when he opens the door. She's startled. Her eyes are adjusted to the well lit hallway. It's dark inside and she's stumbling toward this stranger in her apartment. Her training has her instinctively pull her gun. They are very close to one another during this exchange. She shoots him.

I have no reason to believe she simply seen it as an opportunity to shoot a black man.

I also have no reason to believe that. It doesn't seem like she was in the apartment. Did you read the link?*

*

A woman who uses the name @bunny.babbs posted two videos on Instagram that she wrote captured the aftermath of the shooting. Heavy was able to confirm that the hallway and circumstances shown in the videos matched the scene through an interview with Jean’s next-door neighbor, Alyssa Kinsey, who heard the gunshot and watched some of it unfold through her apartment door peephole. The Instagram user has now privatized her account. Here are the videos she posted. The first one shows the CPR attempt; it’s tilted sideways in part because that’s how the user posted it.

...

“My night was interrupted by a cop ‘mistakenly’ murdering a neighbor. I seem to be the only one with any footage of this , so here you go.. first video is the cop a few seconds after she pulled the trigger, crying. And the second video is them pretending to revive what I believe to be an already deseased (sic) victim. These clips come from a 10 minute video. First clip is 57 seconds into the video. The second clip is at 7:33… there was 6 minutes she spent crying in the hall. I’m not intrested in selling this footage so go ahead and tag the blogs you want cause I’m sure my post and/or IG will magically disappear soon. #BothamJean.”

...

In the interview with Heavy, Kinsey said, “I was talking to my boyfriend, heard a shot, then some sort of commotion. Sounded like yelling/running/some loudness so I jumped up, ran to the door, looked out the peep hole, didn’t see anything at that moment but I could hear a woman calling 911 and hyperventilating.”

Kinsey gave Heavy this video showing the hallway in the apartment.

...

Kinsey told Heavy that she saw the female officer pacing in the apartment hallway. She heard the officer say the apartment number and the words “was shot,” but she adds, “she was pacing away from me at that point.”

After hearing the shooting, Kinsey says, “I then posted on nextdoor app as a warning. I did not hear pounding or yelling before the shot. These halls are echoey so I feel like I’d hear it but maybe not.”

She added, “I’ve never seen a cop on this part of our floor” before. “This is just so so awful. I want justice for him and his family,” said Kinsey, who added that she had never seen the officer before.

She told Heavy that she tried to step outside her apartment “once the cops started swarming but they told me to stay inside.” She heard people saying things like, “We have an officer working on CPR” and “Where’s the stretcher.”

Kinsey added, “I heard the lady cop say ‘I need to call my partner’ and another cop said ‘okay go but don’t tell him anything.’” ...

 

[ZiprHead]

From what I saw reported about this incident, the apartment locks are electronic and use key fobs for unlocking. So no key jiggling in the door.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If this was not an accident, but a murder of someone she had any personal contact with there is almost no way it won't come out. Especially now in the internet age, unless they communicated by smoke signals or semaphore.

At any rate, I don't see much reason to speculate on this.

Yeah. If it's more than an accident we won't figure it out, wait for the investigation.

 

[Rhea]

She's startled.
It's dark inside and she's stumbling toward this stranger.
Her training has her instinctively pull her gun.
She shoots him.

I have no reason to believe she simply seen it as an opportunity to shoot a black man.

Because it just seems so fucking reasonable otherwise, right?
Great training.

Our point is that if the person had been a kid - no shot likely.
If the person had been a woman, no shot likely.
If the person had been a white man, dressed the same way - no shot likely.

Her background has "trained" her to believe that black men are dangerous.

That. Is the problem.