Problems with the Heaven Concept

[Mageth]

At the same time, there is no sadness because those in ehaven understand more - they see those in hell for what they are; that which was hidden from them on earth.

You claim to know what you admit you don't know.

No traversal needed...your assertions self-destruct.

 

[rhutchin]

Yeah, the tornado was a shitty analogy. If all you get for happy in heaven is the kind of happy you feel that the tornado missed you while wiping out your neighbor, then it's a commune of schadenfreude, and that's monstrous.

The tornado analogy is actually a great analogy. It demonstrates that a person can have mixed feelings - happiness at having escaped personal disaster and sympathy for those who do not. It is hardly pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others - it is pleasure derived from one's personal fortune - in escaping the destruction of the tornado. I do not see how you confuse concepts here.

This is of no comfort to my devout mother who knows that her children are atheists and will therefore burn in hell. But you won't be sad. And your bible says she won't, either. How horrible. She does not appear comforted by your words, though.

The devout mother makes her appeal to God and rests in His decisions. That is her comfort - that God is in control and God will do right.

- - - Updated - - -

At the same time, there is no sadness because those in ehaven understand more - they see those in hell for what they are; that which was hidden from them on earth.

You claim to know what you admit you don't know.

No traversal needed...your assertions self-destruct.

WOW! Just like yours.

 

[rhutchin]

God tells us that no person who has sinned will enter heaven. Then He tells us how He has prepared a way for those who have sinned to be forgiven and thereby enter heaven. Your analogy of the wasp is off base. God does not hunt a person down and put the person into hell; He merely refuses a sinner entry into heaven leaving the sinner outside and in hell. All this God describes in language simple enough for a child to understand.

Except for those whose hearts god hardens on purpose SO THAT they can never accept god, SO THAT he can torture them. Nah, your story has problems. So yeah, he actually does hunt them down and put them into hell.

Not really. Take the atheist for example. The atheist can clearly understand the Bible and what it says. He has no desire for God yet logically, he should seek God. Even though hardened, people still can understand all that the Bible says. In every area of life, a perosn acts logically, as a rule. Only with respect to God will a person reject logic and act from emotion.

 

[Rhea]

The tornado analogy is actually a great analogy. It demonstrates that a person can have mixed feelings - happiness at having escaped personal disaster and sympathy for those who do not.

and it UTTERLY contradicts your bible that says there will be no mourning, or crying or pain. There are no mixed feelings in your heaven. Only the gladness at having - whatever you have in heaven - and utterly no care of worry in any way, no mixed feelings, for those who are burning in agony.

Burning.

In agony.

And about this, even if those were people you loved on earth, you have no crying, no pain, no mourning.

rhutchin, you cannot escape or wave away the voices in your bible. They are explicit.

HELL​

earth​

HEAVEN​

Burning in agony​

you care, you cry,​

You do not care, you do not cry,​

every day forever​

you mourn, you feel pain​

you have no pain, you do not mourn​

every day forever​

about other people's suffering​

about the suffering of those you once loved​

This is of no comfort to my devout mother who knows that her children are atheists and will therefore burn in hell. But you won't be sad. And your bible says she won't, either. How horrible. She does not appear comforted by your words, though.

The devout mother makes her appeal to God and rests in His decisions. That is her comfort - that God is in control and God will do right.

Including making her NOT CARE ABOUT OR MOURN her children. I find this kind of sick and monstrous from one's mother. I find it sick and monstrous that a religion can teach people to think this is acceptable. What a horrible legacy of a "faith".

Or are you saying that in no case ever will a parent ever find themselves in heaven without their children? I notice you selfishly said, "well, _I_ won't have to worry, all my kids are going to heaven" without having any care for all of the parents who obviously won't get this. And then you dodge the implications of this to those parents. "La la la! I don't want to think about that scenario!!! It's UGLY!!"

 

[Keith&Co.]

The devout mother makes her appeal to God and rests in His decisions. That is her comfort - that God is in control and God will do right.

Including making her NOT CARE ABOUT OR MOURN her children. I find this kind of sick and monstrous from one's mother. I find it sick and monstrous that a religion can teach people to think this is acceptable. What a horrible legacy of a "faith".

Now, now. She'll have read about Job and God. She'll know that God will have had a good reason for taking her kids away. Like...a bet or something. Or else she'll be convinced that the kids did this to themselves. The God that decided on meaningless revenge and eternal suffering for finite crimes committed by finite people has to be trusted to 'do right.'
Maybe not by human standards, but God can't be held accountable for concepts like trust, love, redemption, mercy, and is completely immune from tags like asshat, petty, tyrannical, vengeful, sadistic and just.

 

[Mageth]

At the same time, there is no sadness because those in ehaven understand more - they see those in hell for what they are; that which was hidden from them on earth.

You claim to know what you admit you don't know.

No traversal needed...your assertions self-destruct.

WOW! Just like yours.

I made no assertion. Hence, once again, you assertion self-destructs.

Edited to add:
And I note that, instead of addressing the problem with your assertion that I pointed out (your claiming to know things that you admit you don't actually know, as you're not in heaven and so they are hidden from you, according to you), you instead chose to resort to a cheap Tu Quoque, otherwise known as a "playground response."

 

[Mageth]

Not really. Take the atheist for example. The atheist can clearly understand the Bible and what it says.

That's one reason I'm an atheist in regard to the alleged Biblical God...I've read the Bible.

He has no desire for God yet logically, he should seek God.

First, I, as an atheist, lack belief in god(s), including your particulalr god. Second, it would be illogical for me to "seek" that which I do not believe exists.

Even though hardened, people still can understand all that the Bible says.

And laugh at your circular logic..."If you don't believe the Bible, then you're hardened, because the Bible says you are."

rhutchin, I give no weight at all to what the Bible says....in particular to what it says about those that don't accept its fairy tales as truth.

In every area of life, a perosn acts logically, as a rule. Only with respect to God will a person reject logic and act from emotion.

I agree...you reject logic and act from emotion in regard to "god".

Does not apply to me. Once again, as an atheist, I lack belief in god(s), including your god. So-called "God" is not an "area" of my life. To me, "god" is but a figment of your imagination. There is nothing for me to "reject logic and act from emotion" towards. I leave that to you.

 

[Sheshbazzar]

The atheist can clearly understand the Bible and what it says.

Yes, we can understand its stated premise very well.

Biblegod has chosen whom he will hate and will burn in hellfire forever and ever, before they are even born or did either good or evil, and there is absolutely nothing that they can ever do about it.
In fact according to the Bible, this god willfully and actively 'blinds' and prevents these non-'chosen' persons from ever being 'saved', as He wills according to His -unmerited- favoritism (John 12:40, Romans 9:11-16 _and a great many other supporting verses)

Biblegod chose and rewarded the conniving, lying, deceiving, thieving, dishonesty of Jacob. (Gen 27:15-29) Because he had chosen to hate and hinder Esau from the very beginning of time, long before he was even conceived in Rebekah's womb. And there was not one thing that Esau could ever do to escape that predestinated fate assigned to him by Yahweh from the first day of creation.
If Esau (and billions of others) are hated by Biblegod, and as a consequences are consigned to burn in torment in the fires of Hell forever and ever, it is because that is what Biblegod chose and brings to pass 'according to His irresistible will and pleasure (Isa 46:10, Romans 9:15-19)

So then the acceptance or damnation is not according to the will or desires of any man that wills or choses, nor of any man that runs or works, but the working machinations of an irresistible God that shows and acts out of incomprehensible and uncontrollable favoritism.

Evidently an extremely evil and insane deity whose ultimate choice is to consign 99.99+% of all of the humans that have ever lived to eternal torture in hellfire because so doing is the eternal plan that pleases him. That is why we reject your insane imaginary god and your sick fucking religion.

 

[rosy tetra]

1. Your resurrected body comes with all ages incorporated. You can switch around ages as you want, and you can switch sexes or be unisex or hermaphrodite or whatever. You can have whatever hygiene issues you feel like having, or none. It's a lot like your body in a lucid dream.

2. Nah, you don't have wings. You have a surfboard. Heaven is a surfing paradise, with endless beaches and awesome waves.

3. Worship? Everything is so awesome in heaven that you are just always thinking, "Wow! Everything is so awesome!" That is worship.

4. All animals go to heaven. Plants too, and fungi and microbes. All of them. Fortunately, heaven's a big place, and nothing eats anything else. There's beer, of course, and snacks. But they just rise up like manna from your snack shack.

5. Re: Oprah. As I said, heaven's a big place. Everybody gets their own damn planet. You can invite other people to your planet for parties and such, but no matter how loud some parties get at, say, Oprah's planet, you can't even hear her on your planet. (You get from one planet to another by surfing through space!)

6. Everybody's really mellow in heaven, even celebrities, since it's a surfing paradise. I'm sure Minnie Pearl will say "howdy" and invite you over for a beach party.

7. Reading material? Movies? Heck, everything you would want in a book or movie or music is right there in real life (afterlife), man! You've got your own damn planet. It's a surfing paradise. And countless more to visit. What more could you want?

8. See #5 - Oprah gets her own damn planet, and so do you.

9. Hell? That's just the parking lot. If you see any lost souls driving around in circles trying to find a place to park "in the lines," tell them to quit following old earthly rules. Tell them to just get the hell out of their cars, grab their surfboards, and hit the beach! (So far, nobody's needed to be told twice!)

10. Take anything you want with you to heaven. But you probably won't need it. You get your own damn surfing planet.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

10. Take anything you want with you to heaven. But you probably won't need it. You get your own damn surfing planet.

Dude, I am totally invading and stealing your surfing planet. Sure, I already have one of my own but I'm going to take yours too because ... because fuck you, that's why.

 

[bilby]

1. Your resurrected body comes with all ages incorporated. You can switch around ages as you want, and you can switch sexes or be unisex or hermaphrodite or whatever. You can have whatever hygiene issues you feel like having, or none. It's a lot like your body in a lucid dream.

2. Nah, you don't have wings. You have a surfboard. Heaven is a surfing paradise, with endless beaches and awesome waves.

3. Worship? Everything is so awesome in heaven that you are just always thinking, "Wow! Everything is so awesome!" That is worship.

4. All animals go to heaven. Plants too, and fungi and microbes. All of them. Fortunately, heaven's a big place, and nothing eats anything else. There's beer, of course, and snacks. But they just rise up like manna from your snack shack.

5. Re: Oprah. As I said, heaven's a big place. Everybody gets their own damn planet. You can invite other people to your planet for parties and such, but no matter how loud some parties get at, say, Oprah's planet, you can't even hear her on your planet. (You get from one planet to another by surfing through space!)

6. Everybody's really mellow in heaven, even celebrities, since it's a surfing paradise. I'm sure Minnie Pearl will say "howdy" and invite you over for a beach party.

7. Reading material? Movies? Heck, everything you would want in a book or movie or music is right there in real life (afterlife), man! You've got your own damn planet. It's a surfing paradise. And countless more to visit. What more could you want?

8. See #5 - Oprah gets her own damn planet, and so do you.

9. Hell? That's just the parking lot. If you see any lost souls driving around in circles trying to find a place to park "in the lines," tell them to quit following old earthly rules. Tell them to just get the hell out of their cars, grab their surfboards, and hit the beach! (So far, nobody's needed to be told twice!)

10. Take anything you want with you to heaven. But you probably won't need it. You get your own damn surfing planet.

No bacon? You are not describing any place I would consider to be heaven. Real bacon comes from pigs. Any place with fake bacon is no place I want to spend eternity.

 

[rosy tetra]

Lol, dude! It's impossible to control 2 surfing planets. You can come to mine to party, but if you get out of hand, you get bumped back to your own planet. Or I just surf to yours and our planets get instantly re-programmed so yours is mine and mine is yours. The mods can do that.

 

[rosy tetra]

Lol, Bilby! Are you calling manna bacon fake? It's more real than earth real. That's how heaven is, you know?

 

[Mageth]

 

[jonJ]

3. Worship? Everything is so awesome in heaven that you are just always thinking, "Wow! Everything is so awesome!" That is worship.

It's a lot like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx5n21zHPm8

 

[rhutchin]

The atheist can clearly understand the Bible and what it says.

Yes, we can understand its stated premise very well.

Biblegod has chosen whom he will hate and will burn in hellfire forever and ever, before they are even born or did either good or evil,...

True. But God tells you all this in the Bible and you know exactly where you stand with Him. No atheist will be surprised at the judgment where he will give account of his actions. A lot of atheists will be able to quote Bible better than the non-atheists there.

...and there is absolutely nothing that they can ever do about it.

Not exactly. God also tells everyone what to do if they really don't want to spend eternity in hell - of course, you would have to want to spend eternity in heaven and some people may actually find hell more attractive than heaven (at least until they get there and find the accommodations not what they expected).

 

[another1]

Only Abrahamists can justify being happy seeing former loved ones burn in hell because "they weren't what they seemed to be" or "they never really had faith".

Why would you think that they are happy about it?

Because of the shine in their eyes as they describe the horrors and tortures that await anyone that rejects their Christ. Because of the time they spend preaching on the fates of the unfaithful. Because they get so excited that they spit on listeners as they wax rapturous on the ability to look down from Heaven upon those that burn, knowing full well that they could have avoided damnation by merely agreeing with those who tried to spread the Faith.

And by how vicious they get at anyone that begins to question whether or not it's possibly unfair. How they rush to the defense of their skybeast that has done the condemning rather than the forgiving.

Their shiny little ferret eyes flashing around us. Spitting at us and flicking cigs at us. Tugging our pockets for change. The skybeasters are demons yes.

 

[rhutchin]

This is of no comfort to my devout mother who knows that her children are atheists and will therefore burn in hell. But you won't be sad. And your bible says she won't, either. How horrible. She does not appear comforted by your words, though.

The devout mother makes her appeal to God and rests in His decisions. That is her comfort - that God is in control and God will do right.

Including making her NOT CARE ABOUT OR MOURN her children. I find this kind of sick and monstrous from one's mother. I find it sick and monstrous that a religion can teach people to think this is acceptable. What a horrible legacy of a "faith".

As with David in the death of his son born to Bathsheba, the mourning took place while the child lived. Once the child died, David could do not more. However, he was confident that God had indeed responded positively to his appeals for the child. Such is the confidence of all believers who continually pray for their children.

Or are you saying that in no case ever will a parent ever find themselves in heaven without their children? I notice you selfishly said, "well, _I_ won't have to worry, all my kids are going to heaven" without having any care for all of the parents who obviously won't get this. And then you dodge the implications of this to those parents. "La la la! I don't want to think about that scenario!!! It's UGLY!!"

I think believers can have great confidence that God will respond to their prayers on behalf of their children and their children will be with them in heaven. Of course, non-believing parents can expect to be with their children also - but this is not guaranteed.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Their shiny little ferret eyes flashing around us. Spitting at us and flicking cigs at us. Tugging our pockets for change. The skybeasters are demons yes.

No, not usually for change.
There're just many nasty little sadists who sign on with a religion that promises them a chance to watch suffering for all of eternity.

 

[bilby]

I am sure as shit going to be surprised if there is a judgement.

I expect many other atheists will be too.

Would you be surprised if your first day at Hogwarts they put you under the sorting hat?

I bet you would. And for the exact same reason I would be surprised to be judged by God.

And by the way - fuck the Bible. I will, in the vanishingly unlikely event of needing to do so, quote something internally consistent.