Puerto Rico And The East Coast

[steve_bank]

Puerto Rico is essentially a welfare state. Staring in the 70s there were tax incentives for business to build in Puerto Rico.

When I worked for Intel in the 80s when they made computers manufacturing and order fulment was done in PR. No sales taxes for one.

PR has had several financial bailouts and their govt is unable to manage their own affairs. Nobody knows where the money went, it did not go to improving and hardening infrastructure.

They were woefully unprepared for a serious storm whatever shortcomings there was in FEMA.

Place the blame on PR administrators more than anything else. It is not the role of the federal government to oversee the functioning of the states. Here in Washing there is a project to harden a series of bridges against earthquakes to ensure relief supply routes into the area. There is Seattle city and regional planning and exercises for big quake. Building codes are updated for quakes. People are periodically encouraged to have an emergency supply of food and water in the home to last several weeks along any medicine needed.

There is a river in the Cascades that floods every year. Eventually a code was enacted requiremeing new buildings to be raised above the high water mark.

The rehab facility I am in has a backup generator and emergency food supplies.

Considering the effects of climate change, is PR sustainable?

And the same question for our east coast. Is there a point to rebuilding on the coast? People live at sea level on islands in storm zones. Should Key West be supported?

Back in the 80s there was a series of storms and flooding along the Mississippi. The corp of engineers for decades tried to control flooding and gave up. Flood plain dwellers were bought out. I believe a town was moved.

New Orleans is below water level. Go figure.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Tomorrow Florence hits the Carolinas. It will leave disaster in it's wake. It is going to be interesting to see how big a clusterfuck this will all end up being with Trump and the GOP running everything. Just before and election 54 days away from now. Maybe there is a God. and she has a sense of humor. Screw this up Republicans, screw it up big!

 

[zorq]

Place the blame on PR administrators more than anything else. It is not the role of the federal government to oversee the functioning of the states.

That's part of the issue though, isn't it? Puerto Rico isn't a state. They have some control when it comes to some things but the federal government really maintains total control over everything important. Congress can pass any law or regulation they want with respect to PR and it automatically overrules any law or regulation the local PR government has established.

But what reason does the federal government have to pay real attention to the will of PR citizens? They have no votes in congress, or the senate or the electoral college. They only seem to care when they want to play out their little economic experiments on the unwilling population.

 

[steve_bank]

Place the blame on PR administrators more than anything else. It is not the role of the federal government to oversee the functioning of the states.

That's part of the issue though, isn't it? Puerto Rico isn't a state. They have some control when it comes to some things but the federal government really maintains total control over everything important. Congress can pass any law or regulation they want with respect to PR and it automatically overrules any law or regulation the local PR government has established.

But what reason does the federal government have to pay real attention to the will of PR citizens? They have no votes in congress, or the senate or the electoral college. They only seem to care when they want to play out their little economic experiments on the unwilling population.

I believe PR has an independent executive, judicial and legislative function. Puerto Ricans are free to move around the states and work where they please without limits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governor_of_Puerto_Rico
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_of_Puerto_Rico
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico


There are about 3 million people, I'd like to see the total aide per person over the decades.


They are in control of their lives. I can not accept the idea that it was all Uncle Sam's negligence.

As to statehood around the 60s there was PR nationalist terrorism in the USA protesting statehood. There was a lot of anger of a Navy base and weapons range. Statehood would be problematic.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Place the blame on PR administrators more than anything else. It is not the role of the federal government to oversee the functioning of the states.

That's part of the issue though, isn't it? Puerto Rico isn't a state. They have some control when it comes to some things but the federal government really maintains total control over everything important. Congress can pass any law or regulation they want with respect to PR and it automatically overrules any law or regulation the local PR government has established.

But what reason does the federal government have to pay real attention to the will of PR citizens? They have no votes in congress, or the senate or the electoral college. They only seem to care when they want to play out their little economic experiments on the unwilling population.

The big problem with Puerto Rico is corruption.

 

[lpetrich]

A blast from the past: natural disasters from 2012 - 13.

After Hurricane Sandy hit New York City in 2012, guess who objected?

JT Eberhard: David Koch wants to stop relief funding to Hurricane Sandy victims.
Americans for Prosperity: $60 Billion Sandy Aid Package 'A Disgrace' - Fort Lee, NJ Patch

New Jersey's Americans for Prosperity State Director called on legislators to reject the bill, saying that aid would be a burden on the country's taxpayers and would be misspent at all levels of government by officials glomming for every last nickel.

The bill, he said, would lead to a spending free-for-all and is merely an attempt to secure funding for wasteful endeavors by appealing to emotion.

"Tragic things happen every day to people -- worse things than having your house flood -- and we don't hand them a check," he said. "Having your shore house flood doesn't rank."

"This is not a federal government responsibility. We need to suck it up and be responsible for taking care of ourselves."

Lee Fung: David Koch Now Taking Aim at Hurricane Sandy Victims | The Nation

It seems particularly cruel that the Koch political machine would use its vast network of paid activists and professional operatives to kill this bill. For one thing, this is David Koch's community. From his Upper East Side apartment, Koch lives only a subway ride away from the devastation in Red Hook. Notably, Koch's group gave away free gasoline during the election in a wide-scale anti-Obama stunt, yet had nothing to give to the victims of the storm. Now, Koch, one of the richest men in the world, is actually trying to take something away from them.

There's another wrinkle to this political assault on the aid request that makes it even more heartless. (No, it's not the rather arbitrary decision to target this piece of federal funding over others. Recently, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta identified $74 billion in unnecessary military spending, but AFP has not demanded that the government immediately axe these funds.)

Seems like Occupy Sandy Recovery | InterOccupy Hub has done MUCH more to aid New Yorkers than David Koch or his brother Charles. I find it curious that the Koch brothers and other big right-wing moneybags aren't giving lots more aid than that Occupy effort has been doing, complete with loudly advertising it with "For every dollar of value of aid that those dirty Occupy hippies are giving, we will give at least $10 worth."

 

[steve_bank]

Year after year the same storm drama plays out in the media. You would think by now we'd be spending on making the cosas storm resistant instead of rebuilding over and over.

 

[lpetrich]

The Washington Monthly - The Magazine - Did Hurricane Sandy Save Obamacare?
Book review:
The Sympathetic State: Disaster Relief and the Origins of the American Welfare State
by Michele Landis Dauber
University of Chicago Press, 378 pp.

The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) is a relatively recent creation, but, as Dauber shows, federal disaster assistance stretches back to the early days of the Republic when Congress began to provide help for the victims of the New Madrid earthquakes of 1811-12 and during the War of 1812. By the Civil War era, Congress had passed fifty relief bills covering everything from Mississippi River floods to the devastation of the Kansas grasshopper plague of 1874. Even fervent believers in states' rights rarely expressed constitutional qualms about federal disaster relief. Between 1860 and 1930, there were more than ninety additional federal relief provisions, in addition to the millions expended in the South after the Civil War. From time to time, a few southerners voiced halfhearted constitutional objections that were uniformly disregarded. There was a nearly complete consensus that disaster relief fell within Congress's power to tax and spend for the general welfare.

New Deal advocates, including FDR's lawyers, cited Federal disaster relief as a precedent, making comparisons between natural disasters and economic collapses.

Don Farber concludes

It is no coincidence that the conservative Republicans who loathed the AHCA as unconstitutional also called for the abolition of FEMA. Mitt Romney parroted these positions in his presidential campaign. That might not have been a problem if Hurricane Sandy had not intervened in the last days before the election, reminding Americans of how much they have always expected the federal government to come to the rescue after disasters. But few of us -- and surely few of the more fervent believers in the jurisprudence of original intent -- are aware of how far back this attitude stretches in American history.

The teabaggers would feel betrayed, I'm sure.

 

[lpetrich]

The Republicans were reluctant to vote for aid for the New York City area after it was hit by Hurricane Sandy in 2012. But look at what happens when something bad happens in their own states. They turn into their own stereotype of lib-buh-ruhls as government-dependent moochers, begging for government money, and refusing to be self-reliant.

Daily Kos: Texas wants federal disaster aid it refused to give others
Republicans Who Voted Against Sandy Aid Ask For Aid To West, Texas After Explosion

When that fertilizer facility exploded in West, Texas, guess who wanted Federal aid?

Governor Rick Perry, secessionist.
Sens. Ted Cruz and John Cornyn, and Rep. Bill Flores, all three of whom had voted against aid for the New York City area after Hurricane Sandy.

Oklahoma Senator who voted "no" on Sandy aid calls home-state tornado "totally different" - NY Daily News
Anti-Sandy-relief Senator: Aid for Oklahoma is "totally different"

That's Sen. James Inhofe.

Colorado's House Republicans ask for flood relief after voting against Sandy aid | The Raw Story
Colorado House Republicans Unanimously Support Flood Relief, Unanimously Opposed Sandy Aid | ThinkProgress

That's Reps. Mike Coffman, Cory Gardner, Doug Lamborn, and Scott Tipton.
The Democrats in Colorado's delegation had supported aid to victims of Sandy, however.

 

[J842P]

Place the blame on PR administrators more than anything else. It is not the role of the federal government to oversee the functioning of the states. Here in Washing there is a project to harden a series of bridges against earthquakes to ensure relief supply routes into the area. There is Seattle city and regional planning and exercises for big quake. Building codes are updated for quakes. People are periodically encouraged to have an emergency supply of food and water in the home to last several weeks along any medicine needed.

While I am happy to blame PR administrators for incompetence, PR is not a state, it is an unincorporated territory, and I am not sure what that implies for deciding which entity has ultimate responsibility for disaster prep on the island.

 

[Elixir]

Place the blame on PR administrators more than anything else. It is not the role of the federal government to oversee the functioning of the states. Here in Washing there is a project to harden a series of bridges against earthquakes to ensure relief supply routes into the area. There is Seattle city and regional planning and exercises for big quake. Building codes are updated for quakes. People are periodically encouraged to have an emergency supply of food and water in the home to last several weeks along any medicine needed.

While I am happy to blame PR administrators for incompetence, PR is not a state, it is an unincorporated territory, and I am not sure what that implies for deciding which entity has ultimate responsibility for disaster prep on the island.

All I know is that last time ~3000 Americans died in an incident, we (taxpayers) got soaked for over a trillion dollars and thousands more lives, and have had to live in a semi-police state ever since. Compared to that outcome, I'll gladly give Cheato the A+ he says he deserves.

 

[steve_bank]

A plan for PR/

1. It is not rocket science to build and maintain power grid for 3 million people. Have Puerto Ricans intern at mainland utilities. Have spares. FEMA reported there were no spare trasformers on the island.

2. Clear trees from the sides of main roads into the interior.

3. Create a series of covered cisterns that can be filled with water before a hurricane.

4. Build simple concrete structure shelters around the island stocked with generators and food. MREs work fine.

5. Build a network of hurricane proof fuel storage tanks around the island.

6. Require all medical facilities to have generators and enough fuel on hand to last until fuel can be resupplied.

7. Have the vehicles that can get around in an emergency. Water tank trucks, fuel tank trucks.

8. Harden the grid transmission system. Get rid of wooden poles. Add supports for wires.

Same goes for the American islands elsewhere in the Atlantic. They don't get to live an island life with wealth on the islands and then expect rebuilding at taxpayer expense.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

[lpetrich]

Look at how proudly self-reliant the people of Texas and Florida are, refusing all Federal aid to them after those two hurricanes. NOT!!! Their politicians are shameless subsidy-suckers -- even those who refused to help New York City after Hurricane Sandy.

HUD approves $5 billion for Texas' Hurricane Harvey housing relief | Harvey | Dallas News (2018-06-26)
"Texas Sens. John Cornyn and Ted Cruz celebrated the approval, emphasizing the enormous needs that still exist after the devastating storm inundated much of the Gulf Coast."
Trump signs off on nearly $90 billion of disaster funding that will help Harvey victims | The Daily Texan (2018-02-16)
"Just prior to being passed, 12 Texans in the U.S. House of Representatives sent a letter to U.S. Senate leaders, urging them to vote quickly on the bill, which had languished on the Senate floor for over a month."

Gov. Rick Scott says $1.4 billion is headed to Florida post-Irma | Miami Herald (2018-06-08)


3 storms, 3 responses: Comparing Harvey, Irma and Maria - CNN (2017-09-26)

How many FEMA people and other Federal personnel?
Texas: 31,000 (in place when Harvey arrived)
Florida: 40,000 (in place when Irma arrived)
Puerto Rico: 10,000

Food and water:
Texas: 3M meals, 3M liters of water
Florida: 6.6M meals, 4.7M liters of water
M = million
Puerto Rico: ?

President Trump's first visit:
Texas: 4 days after
Florida: 4 days after
Puerto Rico: ~ 2 weeks after

Donations:
Texas: $157M
Florida: $222M
Puerto Rico: $8M

Hurricane Harvey: Trump signed a bill that included emergency funding for hurricane relief on September 8, about two weeks after Hurricane Harvey hit. The bill, part of a deal struck between Trump and Democratic leaders, included about $22 billion for FEMA's disaster relief fund, $15 billion of which was new funds.

As of Monday, FEMA had $5.03 billion available for disaster spending between now and the end of September a FEMA spokesperson told CNN. The disaster relief fund will be replenished with another $6.7 billion in October when the new fiscal year begins.

Hurricane Maria: Sanders said Monday it was too early to identify a spending amount to request from Congress.

"Once we have a greater insight into the full assessment of damage then we'll be able to determine what additional funds are needed but we're still in that ... fact-finding process on that piece of it," she said.

House Speaker Paul Ryan and other congressional leaders said there was a "humanitarian crisis" in Puerto Rico because of the storm.
"This is our country and these are our fellow citizens. They need our help and they're going to get our help," Ryan said.

 

[lpetrich]

So I expect the Carolinas to get a lot of Federal aid and Presidential attention, as Texas and Florida have gotten since their big hurricanes last year.

As every good right-winger knows, government spending is good when the recipients of that spending are red states and not blue states.

 

[steve_bank]

People on the west coast are prepared for major quakes. PR appears completely unprepared and helpless. It appears none of the financial aid over decades went to infrastructure.

New Orleans is not much better. It is below sea level. The old pump system is inadequate as were the dikes and berms. NO is not sustainable for any large population in the long term. A lot of the Texas coast and oil infrastructure is built on a large flood plain to begin with. The paved streets and sidewalks worsen the effects of flooding. People build right on the San Andreas fault. There is a stadium built on the fault that cracked from the regular plate motion.

There is plenty of stupidity to go around. The question here is PR and the east coast as well. How many tines do we pay to rebuild rather than a one tome cost to make areas hurricane proof.

Making PR less susceptible to hurricanes is straightforward. It takes a concerted coordinated effort of the Puerto Rican govt and people.

Personally I am sick of hearing the plight of island dwellers of the US coast hurricane after hurricane.

Long Island is essentially a big sand bar. My sister and brother in law live in Mastic Beach about 3 feet above sea level.

It is only going to get worse.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A plan for PR/

1. It is not rocket science to build and maintain power grid for 3 million people. Have Puerto Ricans intern at mainland utilities. Have spares. FEMA reported there were no spare trasformers on the island.

The problem was they were spending too much on social spending, not enough on maintaining the infrastructure. Having locals intern on the mainland doesn't do anything about it, and spares cost money.

 

[ZiprHead]

Trump Wants To End Hurricane Maria Relief Funding To Puerto Rico: Report

 

[Elixir]

Trump Wants To End Hurricane Maria Relief Funding To Puerto Rico: Report

Another point in favor of giving PR statehood.