• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Putin's lies. Why do Russians believe him?

zorq

zorq

Veteran Member
Joined
May 8, 2002
Messages
1,900
Location
Republic of Korea
Basic Beliefs
Atheist, Moderate
In another thread I posted my synopsis of the Annexation of Crimea which is reposted and hidden here.


Russian propaganda emphasizes that Ukraine's president Yanukovich was democratically elected but always ignore the un-democratic power-grab that took place after election.

In 2010 Yanukovich was elected on a platform of "neutrality" regarding Russia and the West, but immediately strong-armed the Ukrainian courts to change the constitution back to a previous version which would give the President More power. (Several judges had been forced to resign right before the ruling under pressure from Yanukovich) This controversial power-grab lead to unrest and distrust of the President which grew.

In November 2013 Yanukovich signed a partnership deal with Russia and rejected a deal with the EU which incited protests in Kiev. (Admittedly Russia did offer a better deal of $15 Billion compared to the EU's 838 Million in loans and aid, but Russia also ran a subversive ad campaign in Ukraine. They love their propaganda.)

In December 2013 Yanukovich tried his hand a gerrymandering by passing a law that reduced the influence of Kiev votes. Obviously this lead to larger protests in Kiev which grew further.

In February protests elevated to riots when more anti-protest laws were passed and the protesters occupied some government buildings. . Russia was determined to not let Yanukovich's opposition come to power and they publicly said so. Not only that, Russians insisted that force was necessary to resolve the situation and gave military advice and personnel, including snipers, to Yanukovich for use in squashing the protesters. With Russia's military help, Yanukovich tried a crackdown that left more than 100 people dead.

On February 22 After this failed crackdown Yanukovich signed an agreement with the opposition giving concessions including a return to the 2010 constitution. This agreement was mediated with both EU and Russian advisers and witnesses. The parliament voted unanimously to accept these concessions. Yanukovich's impeachment was proposed, and the next day Yanukovich fled the country and parliament declared that he had "withdrawn from his duties in an unconstitutional manner" and set a schedule for early elections. Parliament elected Turchynov acting president and prime minister of Ukraine. This very same day, the 23rd, Putin had a meeting where he discussed extracting Yanukovich and set the agenda of "returning Crimea to Russia"

On February 27 masked Russian troops not wearing any insignias took over the supreme council of Crimea and other strategic locations. This led to the installation of the pro-Russian Aksyonov government in Crimea and the declaration of Crimea's independence. This was a clear violation of the agreement that established Ukraine's independence following the break up of the USSR and a clear violation of international law.

In March 2014 Russia's "little green men" soldiers set up a self declared pro-Russian government and announced a referendum on Crimea's independence. This referendum is not recognized as legitimate by international rules. These same Russian soldiers were posted outside of the poling places and controlled the ballot boxes on the referendum day.


But this timeline features some surprising lies by a major world leader. Let's take a look. These first two are blatant as Putin himself outs his own lie and violation of international law.

1. Putin lies about and admits to invading and annexing Crimea.

Dated: March 2014: In this link Putin denies that the unmarked soldiers that captured Crimean government buildings on Feb. 27 2014, "the little green men" are Russian.
http://www.reuters.com/article/ukraine-crisis-russia-crimea-idUSL6N0M122M20140304

Dated : March 2015: In this link Putin ON VIDEO admits to planning the annexation of Crimea on the night of Feb. 22-23 2014
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31796226

Dated April 2014: In this link Putin admits ON VIDEO that the soldiers who captured Crimea and acted against Ukranian security personell in Crimea were Russian troops.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-ApPC4XoV4
Here again, Jan 2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIShtbJpXzQ
​

2. Putin lies about and admits to sending Russian soldiers into Eastern Ukraine.
Dated April 2014 Putin says that there are NO Russian armed forces in eastern Ukraine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stra6-a68DM

Dated Dec 2014: Putin says that there ARE Russian troops in Ukraine, but they are all volunteers who aren't being paid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww5X4jgxqYw

Dated April 2015: In this link Putin says "Let me be clear, There are no Russian Troops in Ukraine."
http://www.businessinsider.com/putin-i-will-say-this-clearly-there-are-no-russian-troops-in-ukraine-2015-4
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=893b11a7Sd0

Dated Dec 2015: In this link Putin admits that Russian forces are acting in a military capacity in eastern Ukraine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD4YrK0irQk
​

3. Putin claims the new Ukranian government is "fascist" and full of "neo-Nazi's"

Here are two articles that mention this lie.
This article attacks the lie: http://www.wsj.com/articles/debunking-putins-fascist-kiev-myth-1438285884
This one defends it: http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/05/14/putin-ties-ukraines-government-to-neo-nazis-a-new-law-seems-to-back-him-up/
I'll attack it. Fascism is partially defined by authoritarianism and concentrated power which is opposed by democracy which distributes power. But Ukraine's new government is measurably more democratic than the one that it replaced. Restoring the 2010 constitution also restored power to the parliament at the expense of the president.
As for "neo-nazi's," Yes, There are quite a few of them in Ukraine, but there are quite a bit in lots of European countries too. Also consider that the prime minister of Ukraine, Volodymyr Groysman, who was elected by parliament this year, is a Jew.​

4. Other lies: There are other stupid lies too, like these ones:

These are just an example of lies from one speach of Putin that shows he's full of shit all the time.
https://meduza.io/en/feature/2015/12/18/putin-s-lies​

Anyway, how do Russians and Russophiles justify their blind faith in Putin in the face of his outrageous lies?
 
Putin's lies. Why do Russians believe him?

Well for the folks who spread them on the internet in forums like this, I'd say it is less that they "believe" the lies, and more that if they don't do their job, the "severance package" includes a dose of polonium.
 
Like in many places, there is very little unity of thought or action between common/non ruling class individuals who make up the vast bulk of society. Each person either afraid to take meaningful action because they perceive little or no support, so the risk is seen as too high for little or no gain for acting on one's own.....or apathy sets in due to this condition.
 
Do American leaders lie about what they are doing?

Why are they constantly believed when time and time again they are found to be lying?

Anybody ever heard of Edward Snowden?
 
untermensche said:
Do American leaders lie about what they are doing?

Why are they constantly believed when time and time again they are found to be lying?

Anybody ever heard of Edward Snowden?
Click to expand...
Yes, every politician/celebrity has fanboys who refuse to see the truth when it's staring them in the face, but I feel like Putin has more than his fair share. Why?

Is he really ruling with an iron fist like Kim Jong Un and the people are afraid of retribution? It doesn't seem like that is the case. Russia has an $11.2 Billion US dollar international tourism industry. Russian citizens are free to emigrate to other countries.

Where is the motivation to suspend judgement on Putin coming from?
 
zorq said:
untermensche said:
Do American leaders lie about what they are doing?

Why are they constantly believed when time and time again they are found to be lying?

Anybody ever heard of Edward Snowden?
Click to expand...
Yes, every politician/celebrity has fanboys who refuse to see the truth when it's staring them in the face, but I feel like Putin has more than his fair share. Why?

Is he really ruling with an iron fist like Kim Jong Un and the people are afraid of retribution? It doesn't seem like that is the case. Russia has an $11.2 Billion US dollar international tourism industry. Russian citizens are free to emigrate to other countries.

Where is the motivation to suspend judgement on Putin coming from?
Click to expand...

It's called patriotism.

The most dangerous form of human religion.
 
One is that they don't have a free press.

But we believe what our leaders tell us too (generally). If we woke up tomorrow morning to find that Obama had launched a surprise combined ground and air strike into Venezuela in response to [name your scenario] would we doubt him? Not at first. And if things went smoothly and it largely sounded plausible, America would be all, "Go get them motherfuckers and bring back their oil!"

And how realistic is it that Americans would look to Putin for advice on what to do in our own country?
 
Colonel Sanders said:
One is that they don't have a free press.

But we believe what our leaders tell us too (generally). If we woke up tomorrow morning to find that Obama had launched a surprise combined ground and air strike into Venezuela in response to [name your scenario] would we doubt him? Not at first. And if things went smoothly and it largely sounded plausible, America would be all, "Go get them motherfuckers and bring back their oil!"

And how realistic is it that Americans would look to Putin for advice on what to do in our own country?
Click to expand...

Is the press in the US free?

Has anybody ever read "Manufacturing Consent"?

There is a lot of evidence the US press is, not totally, but at some levels, an instrument of the government.

It is the means by which government propaganda is disseminated.

No greater example could exist than the buildup to the US attack of Iraq.
 
Colonel Sanders said:
One is that they don't have a free press.
Click to expand...
This is true only relatively. There is a small amount of "free" (of government control) media. As I have said before, Russia had had problems with "free" press in the 90s, where "free" meant "lack of accountability of any kind". Now pendulum swinged the other way.
Free press can not exist in a vacuum by itself. You need "free" and robust justice system too, and it is a bigger problem in Russia I think.
 
I believe a lot of Trump supporters know Trump lies and stretches the truth a lot. They just don't care is all. "We're angry, burn it all down!".
Same with Putin. "He's a liar but he's our liar!"
 
Russians often get angry and agitated over Putin's lies and dictatorial behavior. But then he just posts another picture of himself shirtless while wresting an alligator and they all start swooning and forget whatever the hell it was they were complaining about.
 
Empirical evidence suggests people prefer politicians that if not outright lie at least mislead them.
 
untermensche said:
Colonel Sanders said:
One is that they don't have a free press.

But we believe what our leaders tell us too (generally). If we woke up tomorrow morning to find that Obama had launched a surprise combined ground and air strike into Venezuela in response to [name your scenario] would we doubt him? Not at first. And if things went smoothly and it largely sounded plausible, America would be all, "Go get them motherfuckers and bring back their oil!"

And how realistic is it that Americans would look to Putin for advice on what to do in our own country?
Click to expand...

Is the press in the US free?

Has anybody ever read "Manufacturing Consent"?

There is a lot of evidence the US press is, not totally, but at some levels, an instrument of the government.

It is the means by which government propaganda is disseminated.

No greater example could exist than the buildup to the US attack of Iraq.
Click to expand...
Dude, OP is asking about Putin, not the Executive Branch of the United States. Stay on-topic for a change.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
untermensche said:
Is the press in the US free?

Has anybody ever read "Manufacturing Consent"?

There is a lot of evidence the US press is, not totally, but at some levels, an instrument of the government.

It is the means by which government propaganda is disseminated.

No greater example could exist than the buildup to the US attack of Iraq.
Click to expand...
Dude, OP is asking about Putin, not the Executive Branch of the United States. Stay on-topic for a change.
Click to expand...

I know you don't want perspective.

You want to pretend there is a difference between Putin and US leaders.

There is not much.
 
untermensche said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
Dude, OP is asking about Putin, not the Executive Branch of the United States. Stay on-topic for a change.
Click to expand...
I know you don't want perspective.

You want to pretend there is a difference between Putin and US leaders.

There is not much.
Click to expand...
There is a very notable difference between Putin and US Leaders. The OP was asking about the prior not the latter.
 
untermensche said:
Colonel Sanders said:
One is that they don't have a free press.

But we believe what our leaders tell us too (generally). If we woke up tomorrow morning to find that Obama had launched a surprise combined ground and air strike into Venezuela in response to [name your scenario] would we doubt him? Not at first. And if things went smoothly and it largely sounded plausible, America would be all, "Go get them motherfuckers and bring back their oil!"

And how realistic is it that Americans would look to Putin for advice on what to do in our own country?
Click to expand...

Is the press in the US free?

Has anybody ever read "Manufacturing Consent"?

There is a lot of evidence the US press is, not totally, but at some levels, an instrument of the government.

It is the means by which government propaganda is disseminated.

No greater example could exist than the buildup to the US attack of Iraq.
Click to expand...

Way to seize on the least important part of the post and turn into your own little off road diatribe.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom