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Quantum uncertainty, and Schrodinger's cat

Togo

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According to the famous thought experiment, Schrodinger's Cat exists in a quantum uncertain state until the box is opened, and can thus be both alive and dead.

I've run into someone who insists that this is a logical contradiction, and thus that not only the cat, but quantum uncertainty itself, is impossible.

Does anyone have a good reference that explains this in a fair amount of detail? Not too technical, since I don't know how much science they really understand.
 
A good place to start would seem to be googling "Copenhagen interpretation". Although Schrodinger disagreed with this interpretation and introduced his thought experiment with the cat in the box to demonstrate how absurd it was, those who supported the Copenhagen interpretation adopted that thought experiment as a real example of their interpretation of quantum uncertainty.... go figure.
 
A cat can either be alive or dead.

It cannot be both.

If anybody thinks differently provide the evidence of a cat that is both dead and alive.
 
Well, it is one interpretation. Another interpretation is the "many-worlds" interpretation, in which the universe splits and becomes two universes, one in which the cat is alive, and another in which it is dead. Win something in the not-so-absurd department, lose a little in the parsimonious department! :p
 
"Those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it."
~ Niels Bohr.

Whether a cat can be both alive and dead is a matter for biology not physics.

But all one has to do is produce a cat that is both alive and dead to demonstrate my error.
 
A cat can either be alive or dead.

It cannot be both.

If anybody thinks differently provide the evidence of a cat that is both dead and alive.

Clearly, you've never been attacked by a horde of zombie cats. It's not really a particularly dangerous attack since they don't so much swarm towards you as they just kind of wander around on their own and ignore you. Zombification doesn't do so much to cats. They are both dead and alive, though.
 
"Those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it."
~ Niels Bohr.

Whether a cat can be both alive and dead is a matter for biology not physics.

But all one has to do is produce a cat that is both alive and dead to demonstrate my error.

Biology is a matter of physics.
 
"Those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it."
~ Niels Bohr.

Whether a cat can be both alive and dead is a matter for biology not physics.

But all one has to do is produce a cat that is both alive and dead to demonstrate my error.

"..the 'paradox' is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality 'ought to be.'"
~ Richard Feynman,


To produce the cat would collapse the wave function so its physical state would be settled. You don't seem to understand (no surprise) what the Copenhagen interpretation is even addressing.
 
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According to the famous thought experiment, Schrodinger's Cat exists in a quantum uncertain state until the box is opened, and can thus be both alive and dead.

I've run into someone who insists that this is a logical contradiction, and thus that not only the cat, but quantum uncertainty itself, is impossible.
Logic is secondary to a reality, if reality does not fit your logic then it's your logic at fault, not the reality.

It only a contradiction when being both alive and dead is not part of his logical system.
Quantum mechanics has different interpretations but it is mathematically (logically) consistent. It means you can in principle simulate the whole universe on a computer. Of course computer would have to be much bigger than universe but mathematically speaking it can be done. So logic is fine with QM.
 
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The problem (if you want to call it that) is our minds, not that "reality" is illogical.
[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEZtw1yt8Kc[/YOUTUBE]
 
"Those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it."
~ Niels Bohr.

Whether a cat can be both alive and dead is a matter for biology not physics.

But all one has to do is produce a cat that is both alive and dead to demonstrate my error.

All I know is Bohr was not a Copenhagenist. - Karl Marx
 
How can you grok quantum or relativistic Reality from a "logical," commonsense, 3-D, cause-and-effect, point of view? Everyday experience does not apply. Our minds aren't built to comprehend it.

It's not exactly that there's a single, actual live/dead cat waiting to be discovered or 'realised' by an outside observer. Real Reality is more like a field of all things possible, which our perception collapses into a single potentiality or, alternatively, which doesn't collapse but from which we're only able to follow one of the myriad potential realities.
 
As far as I understand the Schrodingers cat metaphor is that the state of the cat in terms of uncertainty is meant to represent quantum probablitity /Superposition prior to wave collapse (Copenhagen interpretation)and definite a state for the cat (the cat is either dead or alive but not both as in superposition) or there is no wave collapse and all possible worlds are realized (many worlds/string theory).
 
I don't know enough about this matter to comment on any detail, but (for some reason; I guess maybe because of the weirdness involved) this thread reminded me of the following discussion:

A while ago, I had a discussion over at the Prosblogion with a poster who defended a probabilistic/collapse interpretation, and held that observers were required for the wave function to collapse. (unfortunately, I can't find a link; the site underwent some changes, and I suspect older posts are gone. That's too bad. It was fun!).

The cat was not a problem for him: it couldn't be dead/alive, because the cat itself was an observer. And so was anything with a brain. Or, for that matter, just a brain.
So, his view was that before the first brains existed, no collapse happened, so the universe existed in some form of different superimposed possibilities or whatever one calls that.

Then, at the first time some brains were possible - even with very low probability - they collapsed the wave function. They were very simple Boltzmann brains, and they weren't very stable. But there were more of those, so wave function collapses kept happening in different ways - but with only Boltzmann brains -, until the first stable brains appear, and from that moment on, Boltzmann brains disappeared (too improbable).

I pointed out that that was more than an interpretation, since all possibilities that contained no brains were excluded, changing the results; for example, in the past, the probability of at least one Boltzmann brain was 1, even in a finite universe. He accepted that, but bit the bullet. He didn't seem to consider that too much of a problem. Also, IIRC, he predicted that in a distant future, the only survivor would see weird things, as she keeps surviving no matter what (unless a Boltzmann brain becomes more probable than her survival. I guess that would usher in a second "Boltzmann Epoch").

Since I don't know much about this, maybe I'm missing something crucial, but tentatively, that seems to raise interesting questions for defenders of the dead/alive cat:

Did wave function collapse happen before there were any observers?
If so, why do we need an observer in the case of he cat (regardless of whether the cat is an observer).
If not, were there human-like Boltzmann brains in the past? (assuming the cat is not an observer; but there are variants for those who believe it is; see above).
If so, that's interesting. But doesn't that alter your probabilistic interpretation, by ruling out possibilities with no brains? (given that the probabilistic interpretation is based on the possible collapsed outcomes apparently, and the possible collapsed outcomes exclude those without brains).
If not, why didn't early Boltzmann brains collapse the huge uncollapsed wave function? What did collapse it in the first place? Or is the past infinite, and there were always brains complex enough to collapse a wave function?
Maybe some other option? (note: "Yahweh collapses the wave function" is not a viable option, of course :D).
 
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I will need a cat (a live cat), a box, a poison, a Geiger counter and a switch.


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