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Quick rundown of Marxian political economics

PyramidHead

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For the benefit of those who might be interested, here's my limited understanding of the basic ideas espoused by Karl Marx. I'll try to keep it simple, but there are some important concepts that are obviously not in the brains of most people who think they know what Marx said or what socialism is supposed to be. I will do my best to lay them out here. Where there are places that refute extremely common misconceptions, I'll try to call those out in bold.

Marx's major contribution to political economics was to highlight an aspect of society that was not seriously looked at by anyone prior to him. Class struggle had been talked about for a thousand years by everyone from Plato to Adam Smith, but the determinants of class were always either wealth or political power. Rich versus poor, nobility versus peasants, powerful versus powerless. Marx didn't deny that these were useful distinctions to make, but he wasn't interested in them. Marx was not interested in dividing people into classes based on their wealth or their political power. The contemporary "1% versus the 99%" is not a Marxist notion in the slightest; it is closer to a classical French idea than anything Marx wanted to look at.

No, Marx had a different breakdown of class, and he set it up around something else entirely. To understand what that was, I'll give you a rundown of the insight that he started from, the piece of the puzzle he claimed was left out by everybody else at that time.

He says, in every community of human beings, regardless of size, be it a family, a town, a country, an industry, or a tribe, you will find the following things are true:

1. There are people who make or provide the goods and services that humans need and want for their survival and pleasure
2. These people are easily able to produce more than they themselves are able to consume, thus creating a surplus
3. There are also people who don't produce anything, and live off the surplus created by the first group of people

There are no exceptions to be found anywhere in history to this, at least after the agricultural revolution. Before then, it was harder (but not impossible) to create a surplus. In terms of demographics, the people who benefit from the surplus could include young children, the elderly, the sick, tribal elders, bosses, managers, politicians, and any other social function that consumes necessary goods and services, none of which they produce themselves. Marx then makes the following claim. He says, what differentiates one economic system from another is what happens to this surplus. That is, what is the fate of the stuff that is produced by people above and beyond what they need to sustain themselves? He gives five examples.

I. Communism. The people who make the surplus are the same as the people who claim it and distribute it. This was the norm for many tribal systems, for instance.

II. Ancient. Richard Wolff would call this "self-employment". I make shoes all day, and the shoes I make are used by myself and my family, but also traded with others who don't make shoes, in exchange for things I don't make, like bread. Still, the surplus of what I produce is controlled by me, not anybody else, and I don't have a boss who tells me how or when to make shoes.

III. Feudalism. The people who make the surplus live on land owned by others, who don't make any of it, but they own that surplus and keep it for themselves. This went down in a few different ways, in practice. For instance, maybe three days out of the week I work on my apportioned plot of land to make necessities for my household, and the next three days I work on the big estate farms making a surplus for the lord. Either way, I'm tied to the land and I surrender the excess of my productive output to somebody else, who did not himself actually produce it.

IV. Slavery. Masters take all the surplus produced by slaves, who they own and provide a meager portion for as they see fit.

V. Capitalism. Employers start with money, and in order to generate more money they buy materials, equipment, and labor to produce something they can sell. They hire employees to use the materials/equipment according to the employer's wishes, producing a product or service that belongs entirely and instantaneously to the employer, who sells it for more money than it takes to repeat the production process, and subsequently decides what to do with the surplus.

Notice two things. The first is that out of all these systems, only the first and the second place the appropriation and distribution of surplus output directly under the control of its producers. The third, fourth, and fifth are situations where the surplus is produced by one party and appropriated by another party who uses it as they see fit. Marx's term for this latter relationship is "exploitation". Exploitation does not refer to the kindness of the employer, the working conditions, or the generosity of the compensation. For Marx, ANY system in which the producers give up their surplus output to non-producers is exploitative, not due to any personal defect on the part of those involved, but as a feature of the system in its structure.

The second thing is that the form of the surplus under question changes in capitalism compared to the other forms. Under feudalism, for example, the surplus is literally an excess of some quantity of stuff, like grain or wool, that is taken directly from nature. Under capitalism, the surplus is represented by money, since that's what initiates the process: a capitalist uses money to buy raw materials, equipment, land, etc., and hires labor power to transform those things into a commodity he can exchange for more money. Of course, if the value of the commodity was the same as what he began with in terms of materials and labor costs, he would be back where he started. In order to accumulate more money, the commodity must therefore be sold at a higher price than what it cost to make it.

This is uncontroversial and is agreed upon by any economist, at least on a basic level. However, what Marx did was to ask a question that had never been seriously considered. Where does that extra amount included in the price of a commodity, relative to what it took to produce it via labor power and raw materials, actually come from? There are two immediately obvious options. Either:

a. Raw materials, equipment, land, etc. costs (say) $100, labor power costs (say) $100, the final product is therefore worth $200, but the capitalist overcharges the customers by charging $250.

b. Raw materials, equipment, land, etc. costs (say) $100, labor power costs (say) $100, but the final product is worth more than $200[/U], so the capitalist charges what the product is worth by charging $250.

Marx is adamant that scenario B is the case. When a pile of wool sitting next to a complicated machine in a building somewhere is transformed into an article of clothing, it GAINS value. When computer hardware, cooling equipment, and a coding environment is transformed into a software application, it YIELDS extra value compared to what it started with. The soil on its own, in combination with some seed pods and a bucket of water, doesn't have as MUCH value as an edible vegetable. In all cases, the end product is enhanced in some aspect, more than the sum of its parts, and the source of this extra value is obvious to Marx: it's the work that somebody did to make the raw materials into an item with an actual use. I'm greatly simplifying this, but in essence Marx is saying that Adam Smith and David Ricardo were right: the value of a thing is determined by the labor that went into making it. Marx did not originate this idea of value, nor did he use it in his theory without modification. For Smith and Ricardo, the value contained in a product is what was directly added by the concrete labor of whichever particular worker made it using his or her hands. Marx did not see value in these terms. He was more interested in the aggregate, society-wide, abstract labor (something like: the portion of available time and energy in a community that is allocated to making X instead of Y) for his analysis of value.

So, while societies tend to include people who work and people who don't, and the people who work make a surplus that sustains the people who don't, under capitalism this surplus passes through a form that differentiates it from the tangible, edible, wearable stuff that characterized the surplus for a feudal lord or a slave-master. In capitalism, the surplus is the value that a productive worker creates that is not recuperated in wages.

That is, in an hour on the job getting paid $15, since I would not be able to stay employed if I only made $15 worth of widgets (or less than $15 at that!), I am obliged as a condition of my employment to make more than $15 worth of widgets. If you like, you could imagine this demarcated in time. For 45 minutes each hour, I make $15 worth of widgets, whose value is recuperated in my wage; for the last 15 minutes each hour, I'm working for free. In Marx's view, it has to be this way. It's not a matter of my boss being greedy, or some companies being more egalitarian than others. Regardless of all that, an industrial capitalist MUST underpay his workers relative to the value they create. The entire operation depends on having more money at the end than at the beginning, and the only thing that adds value to raw materials, equipment, and human bodies in a room together is the goal-oriented productive labor that transforms them into commodities people need or want. As a consequence, the capitalist system is necessarily exploitative, even where it is regulated and progressively taxed.

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Marx also spent a lot of time talking about how capitalists use the surplus they acquire through production. Importantly, the capitalist system does not maintain itself. It requires a constant influx of money as credit, a perpetually available pool of labor, a segment of the population with a monopoly on deadly violence (police, military, private security), and above all else a sustained campaign of education and indoctrination to keep workers in the position they are in. Apart from those extrinsic concerns, there are also workers whose job it is to continually recreate the conditions for production to happen: managers, secretaries, human resource specialists, bookkeepers, and all the others that Marx called "unproductive" labor (in that they do not literally produce anything, but merely help set the conditions for production). All of these needs can variously be met by capitalists through taxes, expenditures, dividends to shareholders, accumulation to expand the enterprise, grants to universities, lobbying, donations to charities and churches, and direct campaign contributions. Marxism says it's never as simple as "capitalists don't like government". When they have the surplus to pay for it, and they need it more than they need something else, like advertising, they are more than happy to utilize the government to protect their factories through police patrols, or to make their shipping costs cheaper by nationalizing the means of transportation--which is Amtrak.

In other situations, of course, capitalists would rather not be constrained by government influence, but that's not a principled objection to the idea itself of state power. It's a reaction to prevailing conditions, such as the need to automate something in order to compete with other capitalists, and not having enough surplus left over to do it after paying taxes. The stance of capitalists toward government is always relative to the freedom they have to divert portions of the surplus to various destinations as needed. If there is enough surplus to cover all the bases, they will gladly partner with any entity with the ability and willingness to renew again and again the capitalist cycle of production, and states are among the most reliable institutions in that regard. By itself, heavy state involvement in (or even ownership of) productive enterprises does not mean capitalism has been replaced by socialism. This is a myth. It has no basis in anything Marx ever wrote, and indeed he repudiated it whenever it arose. Marx was very clear that communism/socialism has nothing whatsoever to do with state ownership of production, and everything to do with the workers who produce the surplus (which non-workers live off) being in control of that surplus--how much is made, how it's made, and where it's distributed. A country where the workers surrender all of their productive output to a political party is exactly as socialist as one where they surrender it to a private owner, even if the party is transparently elected by the people, because the party is made up of people OTHER THAN the ones actually doing the work.

This is such a crucial point. No matter how democratic a representative or parliamentary body may be, as long as they have authority over the goods and services people work all day to produce, and did not lift a finger in literally producing them, socialism is nowhere to be found in the system.

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To summarize, Marx believed that capitalism had failed to deliver on the promises of the French Revolution, and that it wasn't because of any defect in the morality of the people involved but a natural consequence of how surplus value is produced, appropriated, and distributed in this system. To actually deliver on the promises of "liberty, equality, and fraternity" that so many rallied behind as monarchs fell and independence was gained, Marx believed we would have to move beyond capitalism rather than continually trying to reform it. Like many others, he didn't see a big difference between being owned by a master as a slave and being rented by a capitalist as an employee. He never specified what a post-capitalist society would look like in its details, but favored actual communism--workers asserting control over the fruits of their work--as the way of arriving there, not state manipulation or authoritarian takeover. Much of what people associate with Marxism is actually Lenin's, Trotsky's, Stalin's, Mao's, or some other politician's revision of Marx to fit it into the mold of the existing bureaucracy, which Marx always opposed on principle.
 
I don't think you can say customers are overcharged.

They pay freely based on desire not based on production costs. Unless it is something like medication or food or energy, like gas and electricity. Something needed not just desired.

The problem is only when many workers are underpaid so a few non-workers can be exorbitantly paid.

Modern capitalism always needs the cheaper labor source.

It is always in need of a lot of labor to exploit.
 
Marx also spent a lot of time talking about how capitalists use the surplus they acquire through production. Importantly, the capitalist system does not maintain itself. It requires a constant influx of money as credit, a perpetually available pool of labor, a segment of the population with a monopoly on deadly violence (police, military, private security), and above all else a sustained campaign of education and indoctrination to keep workers in the position they are in.

And here's where Marx goes off the rails.

1) The capitalist system does not require a constant influx of money. Credit is of use to allow faster growth but you could have a capitalist system without it. And it's not an influx--the money is repaid.

2) All machines must have some slack built in. It's less destructive to the system for this to be in the form of available labor than unfilled positions.

3) Capitalism does not require a monopoly on force. Society--regardless of economic system--requires an effective monopoly on law enforcement, though.

Note that all these factors apply to his utopia as well. His system does not include them because he's imagining a static situation. No turnover of employees, no growth, no new technology.

4) He imagines indoctrination is needed. That is not the case. Many of us see that we will be better off focusing on what we are skilled at even though that means giving up a portion of the value we create. To obtain 100% of the value we create means we need to do all those other jobs required to maintain a business and that will drain more of our time than the increased recovery from not paying someone else to do those things.

(quoted out of order)
In all cases, the end product is enhanced in some aspect, more than the sum of its parts, and the source of this extra value is obvious to Marx: it's the work that somebody did to make the raw materials into an item with an actual use.

Apart from those extrinsic concerns, there are also workers whose job it is to continually recreate the conditions for production to happen: managers, secretaries, human resource specialists, bookkeepers, and all the others that Marx called "unproductive" labor (in that they do not literally produce anything, but merely help set the conditions for production).

And here's another example of him going off the rails. All those "unproductive" things are required in a non-static society.

All of these needs can variously be met by capitalists through taxes, expenditures, dividends to shareholders, accumulation to expand the enterprise, grants to universities, lobbying, donations to charities and churches, and direct campaign contributions. Marxism says it's never as simple as "capitalists don't like government". When they have the surplus to pay for it, and they need it more than they need something else, like advertising, they are more than happy to utilize the government to protect their factories through police patrols, or to make their shipping costs cheaper by nationalizing the means of transportation--which is Amtrak.

Most of these things are costs borne directly by the company. They hire the people to do the various jobs.

To summarize, Marx believed that capitalism had failed to deliver on the promises of the French Revolution, and that it wasn't because of any defect in the morality of the people involved but a natural consequence of how surplus value is produced, appropriated, and distributed in this system. To actually deliver on the promises of "liberty, equality, and fraternity" that so many rallied behind as monarchs fell and independence was gained, Marx believed we would have to move beyond capitalism rather than continually trying to reform it. Like many others, he didn't see a big difference between being owned by a master as a slave and being rented by a capitalist as an employee. He never specified what a post-capitalist society would look like in its details, but favored actual communism--workers asserting control over the fruits of their work--as the way of arriving there, not state manipulation or authoritarian takeover. Much of what people associate with Marxism is actually Lenin's, Trotsky's, Stalin's, Mao's, or some other politician's revision of Marx to fit it into the mold of the existing bureaucracy, which Marx always opposed on principle.

His observation of problems was reasonably accurate. His "solution" was an utter disaster because it is purely static.

It's even obvious--he felt a state wasn't suitable for a communist takeover until it had industrialized. That's because he knew his system couldn't industrialize.

We laugh at the patent examiner that quit because everything had already been invented--but Marx is committing the same sin to an even greater degree as his system can't even cope with birth and death.
 
I can’t remember who said it, but someone once said: an over familiarity with the writings of Marx is a sure sign of a misspent youth.

I wouldn’t study Marx for economics any more than I’d study a doctor from 1840 for medicine. Anyone’s time would be better spent finding a 5 page or so paper on the things he got very wrong, most of which have been well known in economics for a century now.
 
I can’t remember who said it, but someone once said: an over familiarity with the writings of Marx is a sure sign of a misspent youth.

I wouldn’t study Marx for economics any more than I’d study a doctor from 1840 for medicine. Anyone’s time would be better spent finding a 5 page or so paper on the things he got very wrong, most of which have been well known in economics for a century now.

Wilful ignorance. I had expected so much.

And bragging about it too like it is something of value.

It must be so nice to know which books are good and which are not without even reading them.

Reading Darwin is very helpful.

Even today.
 
I can’t remember who said it, but someone once said: an over familiarity with the writings of Marx is a sure sign of a misspent youth.

I wouldn’t study Marx for economics any more than I’d study a doctor from 1840 for medicine. Anyone’s time would be better spent finding a 5 page or so paper on the things he got very wrong, most of which have been well known in economics for a century now.
I'd rather read a book by someone who was wrong about five pages worth of things, than a book by someone who is proud of what he does not know.
 
I can’t remember who said it, but someone once said: an over familiarity with the writings of Marx is a sure sign of a misspent youth.

I wouldn’t study Marx for economics any more than I’d study a doctor from 1840 for medicine. Anyone’s time would be better spent finding a 5 page or so paper on the things he got very wrong, most of which have been well known in economics for a century now.

The analogy I like is to think about what you might do if you wanted to learn about a family. You want to know how they act together, if they are nice to each other, how they live, and so on. So you decide to ask the kids what's up. One of the kids loves the family and has nothing but praise for it, while the other is deeply dissatisfied and feels neglected by it. Is there any situation where you would think asking the first kid for his story would give you a complete picture of the family, all else being equal?

And yet, this is what the economics profession has done. Almost no economics students are ever required to read anything by Marx, nor anyone else critical of capitalism. The profession of economics is thus woefully unprepared to deal with capitalism in crisis, as it has proven again and again, because it isn't actually a science or even a serious intellectual discipline, but an ideological cheerleading squad for capitalism.

LorenPechtel said:
1) The capitalist system does not require a constant influx of money. Credit is of use to allow faster growth but you could have a capitalist system without it. And it's not an influx--the money is repaid.
This is honestly a clumsy take, Loren. If one company is using credit to finance its expansion or pay for its needs, the competition will follow suit. The amount of debt in all thriving capitalist economies in the 21st century is higher than it has ever been and shows no sign of decreasing. Credit is absolutely a requirement of modern-day capitalism and is a big reason why more and more of the economy is being gobbled up by finance and speculation.

2) All machines must have some slack built in. It's less destructive to the system for this to be in the form of available labor than unfilled positions.
Marx would agree with you. This is why the excess unemployed is required for capitalism. You're getting it!

3) Capitalism does not require a monopoly on force. Society--regardless of economic system--requires an effective monopoly on law enforcement, though.
Law enforcement is a monopoly on force, that's just the size of it. Any official body of armed men and women whose job it is to protect the interests of whoever has the most influence in society is bound to become an extension of the wealthy and powerful under capitalism. For this reason, all cops are bastards, even the ones in your family or social circle.

Note that all these factors apply to his utopia as well. His system does not include them because he's imagining a static situation. No turnover of employees, no growth, no new technology.
I want you to stop right there and ask yourself where Marx ever imagines or puts forth a "utopia". Marx was not interested in describing an ideal society, and he certainly would have agreed with you that anything static is a recipe for failure--his definition of communism, in fact, was not the system they would end up with, but the process of struggling through the confines of capitalism, which it was his life's work to analyze (he was NOT a political theorist who wrote about socialism and communism in some future society). He accounts for all of what you mention; Marx was nothing if not comprehensive. You should read him sometime.

4) He imagines indoctrination is needed. That is not the case. Many of us see that we will be better off focusing on what we are skilled at even though that means giving up a portion of the value we create. To obtain 100% of the value we create means we need to do all those other jobs required to maintain a business and that will drain more of our time than the increased recovery from not paying someone else to do those things.

[...]

And here's another example of him going off the rails. All those "unproductive" things are required in a non-static society.
I'm honestly surprised that you're basically accepting the parameters of Marx's analysis of value creation. The first reaction is usually to deny that part, which is what most bourgeois economists did in the years following Marx's death (and continue to do today).

But beyond that, you're actually not saying anything he would disagree with. The unproductive labor IS required to maintain a business in capitalism, and SHOULD exist in a system that requires it. Marx only shows why it happens the way it does, and correctly predicts that expanding capitalist economies will require more and more unproductive labor to maintain. If you acknowledge that capitalism requires managers, security, tax consultants, marketing, and human resource departments because production wouldn't happen without those people, you're making a Marxist argument about the organization of production in an economy.

His observation of problems was reasonably accurate. His "solution" was an utter disaster because it is purely static.

It's even obvious--he felt a state wasn't suitable for a communist takeover until it had industrialized. That's because he knew his system couldn't industrialize.

We laugh at the patent examiner that quit because everything had already been invented--but Marx is committing the same sin to an even greater degree as his system can't even cope with birth and death.
Again--what "system"? What system do you think Marx advocated or developed comprehensively? He spent 95% of his life documenting the struggles of workers against what he saw as internal complications of capitalism, and only made some side notes about what a post-capitalist society would look like. Much of what people attribute to Marx was either written by Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, or others who published after Marx died having never written a single policy recommendation about socialism or communism. He rightly relegated that to the actual workers who had to deal with the specific conditions they were operating within.

From where I'm sitting, since there is nowhere to be found in Marx anything resembling a "solution" to capitalism, and you have basically conceded or agreed with most of Marx's points about the problems and general features of capitalism, it somewhat appears that you, Loren Pechtel (!), are some kind of Marxist. I highly doubt this is the case, though, and I think that in reality you don't actually agree with Marx's analysis of capitalism's faults, because agreeing with them has implications you haven't considered thoroughly. Hence your stance that you can be on board with Marx's observation of problems (i.e. his entire body of work) while still supporting the continuance of capitalism with a straight face and a clean conscience.
 
Just to get them all in one box, these are the misconceptions about Marx and Marxism I'm hoping to partly dissuade people from swallowing anymore:

1. Marxism/socialism/communism has everything to do with the state controlling businesses, planning production, and collecting high taxes.

This is false. All of these activities are what is required when capitalism becomes the dominant economic system in a wealthy society. They aren't logically entailed by capitalism, but are naturally associated with it.

2. Marx advocated for policies like party control over economic activity, open borders, free health care, or gun control.

Not so: Marx said almost nothing about any particular political topic and generally distrusted people who claimed to know the best "system" to install as a fix for society's ills.

3. Marxism means nobody owns their own stuff.

Another scare tactic. Personal property has existed for as long as the human species has existed, and Marx wasn't trying to change that. He was instead commenting on a remarkable change that he saw happening in Europe in America: common lands, forests, and productive natural resources that had always been shared by everyone were now being claimed as individual property and treated as if they were personal belongings. Today it's so commonplace to lump everything someone "owns" into one box that we forget how recent an ideological invention the concept of owning a river or a mine actually is. It predates capitalism, but quickly becomes the norm when capitalism is the only game in town.

4. Marx advocates paying people the same money regardless of how hard they work, or forcing people to do jobs they don't want to do.

Related to number 2, this constitutes a specific policy that Marx had little interest in arguing over. But moreover, the entire purpose of Marx's analysis of capitalism was to examine the ways that capitalist production not only robbed workers of the value they created but alienated them from the activity they spent their lives doing. Removing the element of exploitation from the system would not also remove the pursuit of specialization or incentive.

5. Marxism is a kind of jealousy about the success and comfort of rich people, and is nothing new or interesting.

The reason this is false is because Marxian analysis does not distinguish between classes based on wealth, it distinguishes among them based on their relationship to making or providing the stuff humans need to survive in groups. The people who make it and have to give it up to be distributed by someone else on someone else's terms are the proletariat. The people who don't make anything, but hoard the materials required to make it and so grant themselves the right to distribute what is made, keeping some for themselves in the process, is the bourgeoisie. There are others in between who are hired by the latter to keep the former in check, or to preserve the conditions that make the exploitation seem natural or even divinely ordained.

This doesn't equate to "the 99%" and "the 1%" in any meaningful way, and is something Bernie Sanders constantly gets wrong. If you're a landlord with a couple of buildings or a small business owner with a handful of employees, you're probably in the 99%, but you're not in the proletariat and you're not their friend. Your interests, based on the pressures and needs of your place in the system of capitalism, do not align with those of your tenants or employees just because you are in the same income bracket.
 
I can’t remember who said it, but someone once said: an over familiarity with the writings of Marx is a sure sign of a misspent youth.

I wouldn’t study Marx for economics any more than I’d study a doctor from 1840 for medicine. Anyone’s time would be better spent finding a 5 page or so paper on the things he got very wrong, most of which have been well known in economics for a century now.

Wilful ignorance. I had expected so much.

Actually blocking out everything that's happened in a discipline for the last 180 years is what requires willful ignorance.

If you want to study Marx under the historical sense of "crazy shit people used to believe" I don't really object.

The same way you could study about spontaneous generation or blood letting with leeches. Or the hidden planet beyond Neptune.

But studying it without the additional context of what modern economics considers flat wrong is probably worse than a waste of time. It's likely to lead to a worse life for you and those who are exposed to you.
 
I can’t remember who said it, but someone once said: an over familiarity with the writings of Marx is a sure sign of a misspent youth.

I wouldn’t study Marx for economics any more than I’d study a doctor from 1840 for medicine. Anyone’s time would be better spent finding a 5 page or so paper on the things he got very wrong, most of which have been well known in economics for a century now.

Wilful ignorance. I had expected so much.

Actually blocking out everything that's happened in a discipline for the last 180 years is what requires willful ignorance.

If you want to study Marx under the historical sense of "crazy shit people used to believe" I don't really object.

The same way you could study about spontaneous generation or blood letting with leeches. Or the hidden planet beyond Neptune.

But studying it without the additional context of what modern economics considers flat wrong is probably worse than a waste of time. It's likely to lead to a worse life for you and those who are exposed to you.

You could help save the lives of those poor souls if you provided an example of one of the self-evidently mistaken aspects of Marx's analysis for everyone to read. I don't agree with him on everything, but I don't think he's wrong about what most people say he's wrong about.
 
Actually blocking out everything that's happened in a discipline for the last 180 years is what requires willful ignorance.

If you want to study Marx under the historical sense of "crazy shit people used to believe" I don't really object.

The same way you could study about spontaneous generation or blood letting with leeches. Or the hidden planet beyond Neptune.

But studying it without the additional context of what modern economics considers flat wrong is probably worse than a waste of time. It's likely to lead to a worse life for you and those who are exposed to you.

You could help save the lives of those poor souls if you provided an example of one of the self-evidently mistaken aspects of Marx's analysis for everyone to read. I don't agree with him on everything, but I don't think he's wrong about what most people say he's wrong about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticisms_of_Marxism
 
... Like many others, he didn't see a big difference between being owned by a master as a slave and being rented by a capitalist as an employee. He never specified what a post-capitalist society would look like in its details, but favored actual communism--workers asserting control over the fruits of their work--as the way of arriving there, not state manipulation or authoritarian takeover. ...

I'm sorry for not yet taking the time to read your entire explanation. I see capitalism as one part of a system that needs to be balanced with socialism or socialist-like redistribution. Not so much as an ideology since this is something, I think, that pure capitalism would not allow for. My question is about how communism deals with this in a fair way given the variation in individual ability to work productively. Isn't there also a need for a government in order to provide equal opportunity for all as well as a safety net and care for the infirm and elderly? Putting the workers in control certainly doesn't guarentee humane treatment for all. Both systems it seems need a "master-slave" relationship.
 
Actually blocking out everything that's happened in a discipline for the last 180 years is what requires willful ignorance.

If you want to study Marx under the historical sense of "crazy shit people used to believe" I don't really object.

The same way you could study about spontaneous generation or blood letting with leeches. Or the hidden planet beyond Neptune.

But studying it without the additional context of what modern economics considers flat wrong is probably worse than a waste of time. It's likely to lead to a worse life for you and those who are exposed to you.

You could help save the lives of those poor souls if you provided an example of one of the self-evidently mistaken aspects of Marx's analysis for everyone to read. I don't agree with him on everything, but I don't think he's wrong about what most people say he's wrong about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticisms_of_Marxism

I don't see any of those criticisms as particularly damning. None of them are related to any of the core ideas of Marx as presented in my OP, for example, except maybe this one:

The labor theory of value is one of the most commonly criticized core tenets of Marxism.[29][30][31][32]

The Austrian School argues that this fundamental theory of classical economics is false and prefers the subsequent and modern subjective theory of value put forward by Carl Menger in his book Principles of Economics. The Austrian School was not alone in criticizing the Marxian and classical belief in the labor theory of value. British economist Alfred Marshall attacked Marx, saying: "It is not true that the spinning of yarn in a factory [...] is the product of the labour of the operatives. It is the product of their labour, together with that of the employer and subordinate managers, and of the capital employed".[33] Marshall points to the capitalist as sacrificing the money he could be using now for investment in business, which ultimately produces work.[33] By this logic, the capitalist contributes to the work and productivity of the factory because he delays his gratification through investment.[33] Through the law of supply and demand, Marshall attacked Marxian theory of value. According to Marshall, price or value is determined not just by supply, but by the demand of the consumer.[33] Labor does contribute to cost, but so do the wants and needs of consumers. The shift from labor being the source of all value to subjective individual evaluations creating all value undermines Marx's economic conclusions and some of his social theories.[34]

This is a basic, well-worn criticism of Marx that presents an alternative conception of value, which predictably rescues the capitalist from the spotlight as an antagonist to the worker. These were exactly the same kinds of arguments put forth in times of slavery to absolve the slaveowners of responsibility toward their chattel, or in feudal times to create the impression that lords were deserving of fealty from their subjects and serfs. Always, there is the implication that those in socially sanctioned positions of hierarchical authority earned their spot and are shouldering the appropriate amount of burden. Marshall and Menger dutifully playing their roles in this performance, entirely anticipated by Marx in his analysis of bourgeois economics that were contemporary to him, hardly undermines his overall thesis.

As an aside, it's definitely strange to me that you're offering a Wiki page on the classical criticisms of Marx, as if they themselves have not been responded to later by Marxists, and there have been no developments in Marxist thought since Marshall and company delivered their knockout arguments. Simultaneously, you're comparing Marx to the theory of humours in the blood, as if the critics whose interpretation you (apparently) favor are on the cutting edge of the latest developments in economic thought. But they're all just the usual Austrian and Keynesian reactionaries whose time has also passed in academia, so the charge that Marx is old hat doesn't add up.
 
I can’t remember who said it, but someone once said: an over familiarity with the writings of Marx is a sure sign of a misspent youth.

I wouldn’t study Marx for economics any more than I’d study a doctor from 1840 for medicine. Anyone’s time would be better spent finding a 5 page or so paper on the things he got very wrong, most of which have been well known in economics for a century now.

Wilful ignorance. I had expected so much.

Actually blocking out everything that's happened in a discipline for the last 180 years is what requires willful ignorance.

What has happened except WWI and WWII, two capitalist wars.

What has happened except colonialism and the rape of Africa and India by capitalists?

What has happened except crash after crash?

What has happened except Marx was proven right about capitalism in many ways?

But you wouldn't know because of wilful ignorance.
 
And yet, this is what the economics profession has done. Almost no economics students are ever required to read anything by Marx, nor anyone else critical of capitalism. The profession of economics is thus woefully unprepared to deal with capitalism in crisis, as it has proven again and again, because it isn't actually a science or even a serious intellectual discipline, but an ideological cheerleading squad for capitalism.

Marx was pointing out social problems.

This is honestly a clumsy take, Loren. If one company is using credit to finance its expansion or pay for its needs, the competition will follow suit. The amount of debt in all thriving capitalist economies in the 21st century is higher than it has ever been and shows no sign of decreasing. Credit is absolutely a requirement of modern-day capitalism and is a big reason why more and more of the economy is being gobbled up by finance and speculation.

Saying credit will be used if available doesn't say that credit is required.

2) All machines must have some slack built in. It's less destructive to the system for this to be in the form of available labor than unfilled positions.
Marx would agree with you. This is why the excess unemployed is required for capitalism. You're getting it!

It would be required in a real-world communist system also. His system is totally static and thus doesn't.

3) Capitalism does not require a monopoly on force. Society--regardless of economic system--requires an effective monopoly on law enforcement, though.
Law enforcement is a monopoly on force, that's just the size of it. Any official body of armed men and women whose job it is to protect the interests of whoever has the most influence in society is bound to become an extension of the wealthy and powerful under capitalism. For this reason, all cops are bastards, even the ones in your family or social circle.

No. Law enforcement has a monopoly on the legal offensive use of force. Civilians are restricted to defensive use of force. Again, though, you have missed the fact this applies equally to communism.

Note that all these factors apply to his utopia as well. His system does not include them because he's imagining a static situation. No turnover of employees, no growth, no new technology.
I want you to stop right there and ask yourself where Marx ever imagines or puts forth a "utopia". Marx was not interested in describing an ideal society, and he certainly would have agreed with you that anything static is a recipe for failure--his definition of communism, in fact, was not the system they would end up with, but the process of struggling through the confines of capitalism, which it was his life's work to analyze (he was NOT a political theorist who wrote about socialism and communism in some future society). He accounts for all of what you mention; Marx was nothing if not comprehensive. You should read him sometime.

He doesn't explicitly say he's imagining a static situation but it's very clear his ideas only work in a static situation. The professions he considers unproductive are the ones you need to cope with a non-static situation.

4) He imagines indoctrination is needed. That is not the case. Many of us see that we will be better off focusing on what we are skilled at even though that means giving up a portion of the value we create. To obtain 100% of the value we create means we need to do all those other jobs required to maintain a business and that will drain more of our time than the increased recovery from not paying someone else to do those things.

[...]

And here's another example of him going off the rails. All those "unproductive" things are required in a non-static society.
I'm honestly surprised that you're basically accepting the parameters of Marx's analysis of value creation. The first reaction is usually to deny that part, which is what most bourgeois economists did in the years following Marx's death (and continue to do today).

He's half right. Yes, processing materials into more useful forms creates value and that value should belong to those who did the processing. What he misses is that there's a lot more involved than just the guy with the tool. Again, a case of his ideas only working if things are totally static.

But beyond that, you're actually not saying anything he would disagree with. The unproductive labor IS required to maintain a business in capitalism, and SHOULD exist in a system that requires it. Marx only shows why it happens the way it does, and correctly predicts that expanding capitalist economies will require more and more unproductive labor to maintain. If you acknowledge that capitalism requires managers, security, tax consultants, marketing, and human resource departments because production wouldn't happen without those people, you're making a Marxist argument about the organization of production in an economy.

The "unproductive" labor is needed in a dynamic system, whether capitalist or communist.

His observation of problems was reasonably accurate. His "solution" was an utter disaster because it is purely static.

It's even obvious--he felt a state wasn't suitable for a communist takeover until it had industrialized. That's because he knew his system couldn't industrialize.

We laugh at the patent examiner that quit because everything had already been invented--but Marx is committing the same sin to an even greater degree as his system can't even cope with birth and death.
Again--what "system"? What system do you think Marx advocated or developed comprehensively? He spent 95% of his life documenting the struggles of workers against what he saw as internal complications of capitalism, and only made some side notes about what a post-capitalist society would look like. Much of what people attribute to Marx was either written by Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, or others who published after Marx died having never written a single policy recommendation about socialism or communism. He rightly relegated that to the actual workers who had to deal with the specific conditions they were operating within.

It's possible I'm mixing up Marx with those who followed--I'm addressing the flaws of what is normally attributed to him. His ideas about "unproductive" labor, however, clearly show his "solution" was totally static.

From where I'm sitting, since there is nowhere to be found in Marx anything resembling a "solution" to capitalism, and you have basically conceded or agreed with most of Marx's points about the problems and general features of capitalism, it somewhat appears that you, Loren Pechtel (!), are some kind of Marxist. I highly doubt this is the case, though, and I think that in reality you don't actually agree with Marx's analysis of capitalism's faults, because agreeing with them has implications you haven't considered thoroughly. Hence your stance that you can be on board with Marx's observation of problems (i.e. his entire body of work) while still supporting the continuance of capitalism with a straight face and a clean conscience.

No, what you are missing is that just about everything you blame on capitalism would exist even without capitalism.
 
... Like many others, he didn't see a big difference between being owned by a master as a slave and being rented by a capitalist as an employee. He never specified what a post-capitalist society would look like in its details, but favored actual communism--workers asserting control over the fruits of their work--as the way of arriving there, not state manipulation or authoritarian takeover. ...

I'm sorry for not yet taking the time to read your entire explanation. I see capitalism as one part of a system that needs to be balanced with socialism or socialist-like redistribution. Not so much as an ideology since this is something, I think, that pure capitalism would not allow for. My question is about how communism deals with this in a fair way given the variation in individual ability to work productively. Isn't there also a need for a government in order to provide equal opportunity for all as well as a safety net and care for the infirm and elderly? Putting the workers in control certainly doesn't guarentee humane treatment for all. Both systems it seems need a "master-slave" relationship.

The problem here is you are mixing up a safety net with socialism.

I do think there should be a safety net and probably a better one than we have at present. (Although the real problem with our safety net is more that we make it very hard to climb out of.) I don't like redistribution beyond what's needed for a safety net, though.
 
This is a basic, well-worn criticism of Marx that presents an alternative conception of value, which predictably rescues the capitalist from the spotlight as an antagonist to the worker. These were exactly the same kinds of arguments put forth in times of slavery to absolve the slaveowners of responsibility toward their chattel, or in feudal times to create the impression that lords were deserving of fealty from their subjects and serfs. Always, there is the implication that those in socially sanctioned positions of hierarchical authority earned their spot and are shouldering the appropriate amount of burden. Marshall and Menger dutifully playing their roles in this performance, entirely anticipated by Marx in his analysis of bourgeois economics that were contemporary to him, hardly undermines his overall thesis.

The problem with the labor theory of value is that it in effect says that finding a more efficient way to do something is bad, not good.
 
So Marxism is essentially a theory of makers and takers, with workers being the makers and landowners and business leaders being the takers. Many right-wingers and capitalism apologists agree that humanity is divided up into makers and takers, but their identification of makers and takers is very different from the Marxist identification of them. Many US right-wingers and libertarians believe that business leaders are the real makers in a business and everybody else is nothing but takers -- even those business leaders' employees. US ones, at least, are very adamant that governments are nothing but takers.

Karl Marx was good at identifying problems with capitalism, but not very good at identifying solutions. I get the impression that he wanted something like worker-owned and worker-run cooperatives, something like being self-employed but on a larger scale.


The best-known attempt to implement Marxism is Marxism-Leninism, often called Communism. It involves rule by a centralized, autocratic party that claims to represent the workers. Some of its critics have described it as a form of capitalism where the State is the sole capitalist, a criticism that seems to me to fit very well. Robert Kaiser, in his book about the Soviet Union, described it at one point as "USSR, Inc."

But this attempt was a flop, a miserable flop, though many Cold Warriors seemed to think that it was a glorious success.
 
This is a basic, well-worn criticism of Marx that presents an alternative conception of value, which predictably rescues the capitalist from the spotlight as an antagonist to the worker. These were exactly the same kinds of arguments put forth in times of slavery to absolve the slaveowners of responsibility toward their chattel, or in feudal times to create the impression that lords were deserving of fealty from their subjects and serfs. Always, there is the implication that those in socially sanctioned positions of hierarchical authority earned their spot and are shouldering the appropriate amount of burden. Marshall and Menger dutifully playing their roles in this performance, entirely anticipated by Marx in his analysis of bourgeois economics that were contemporary to him, hardly undermines his overall thesis.

The problem with the labor theory of value is that it in effect says that finding a more efficient way to do something is bad, not good.

Another problem with the Labor Theory of Value is that the premise that the value of an item is purely dependent based on the amount of labor that went into it without any reference to market conditions. In other words, given the following two scenarios:

1) A local hog farmer and butcher does X amount of labor to produce Y amount of ham in a sustainable fashion. There is currently a famine going on and, even if everyone in the local town wasn't starving, they all think ham is delicious.
2) A local hog farmer and butcher does X amount of labor to produce Y amount of ham in a sustainable fashion. There is plenty of food in the town. Actually, there is plenty of ham in the town. In fact, everybody's fridge and/or freezer contains not just one ham, but also a primary, secondary, and tertiary backup ham. Everybody in town appreciates that the hog farmer is a fine and upstanding member of the community, but frankly are starting to get sick and tired of ham being the only meat that they can get for most meals.

According to the LTV, the ham is equally valuable in both scenarios. This is obviously false.
 
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