Recovering from Christianity, a Personal View.

[migrant]

It’s well known that Christianity changed the old winter festival into the modern version - thus stealing one of the most meaningful events of year, and perverting its meaning.
I feel I have identified other things that Christianity has perverted, things which are part of a fully realised human existence, and I reclaim them as best I can.

Is there anything more stomach-churning, more toe-curlingly embarrassing than the prayers of the pious?
So why on earth should I pray?

Well - it’s not a case of ‘should’ - it’s just that I can, and it nurtures me.
When I watch the sunset, or see anything which stirs me deeply, my gratitude and feeling of connection with the cosmos is real prayer. It’s not talking to some imaginary friend, it’s not forming words at all. It is simply resonating silently with all that is - that is prayer, and I’m reclaiming it.

According to Paul of Tarsus, faith is "the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for.”
Others describe it as believing in something you know isn’t true.
Either push us into an attitude of dependance and make us the victims of events.
This ‘faith’ is particularly reassuring if you have a basic fear of not being good enough, but have made a slimy deal with the Almighty.

That fear was a vital part of the spread of Christianity, without it, we can live in a benign universe and have faith in ourselves and each other.
So I’m reclaiming faith as well, and putting it in people - positive responses are frequent enough to make it well worthwhile.

Have you noticed that Christians don’t often refer to Jehovah - they’ve stolen the word ‘God’ regardless of the fact that there are hundreds of gods.
Is this because when we study the Old Testament we soon see that Jehovah urges His followers to slaughter children ……?
Move along folks, nothing to see here, try the gospels …

The gods go back on Mount Olympus. All of them.

So - have I left anything out, that we’ve lost to Christianity?
What do you think?

 

[iolo]

It’s well known that Christianity changed the old winter festival into the modern version - thus stealing one of the most meaningful events of year, and perverting its meaning.
I feel I have identified other things that Christianity has perverted, things which are part of a fully realised human existence, and I reclaim them as best I can.

Is there anything more stomach-churning, more toe-curlingly embarrassing than the prayers of the pious?
So why on earth should I pray?

Well - it’s not a case of ‘should’ - it’s just that I can, and it nurtures me.
When I watch the sunset, or see anything which stirs me deeply, my gratitude and feeling of connection with the cosmos is real prayer. It’s not talking to some imaginary friend, it’s not forming words at all. It is simply resonating silently with all that is - that is prayer, and I’m reclaiming it.

According to Paul of Tarsus, faith is "the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for.”
Others describe it as believing in something you know isn’t true.
Either push us into an attitude of dependance and make us the victims of events.
This ‘faith’ is particularly reassuring if you have a basic fear of not being good enough, but have made a slimy deal with the Almighty.

That fear was a vital part of the spread of Christianity, without it, we can live in a benign universe and have faith in ourselves and each other.
So I’m reclaiming faith as well, and putting it in people - positive responses are frequent enough to make it well worthwhile.

Have you noticed that Christians don’t often refer to Jehovah - they’ve stolen the word ‘God’ regardless of the fact that there are hundreds of gods.
Is this because when we study the Old Testament we soon see that Jehovah urges His followers to slaughter children ……?
Move along folks, nothing to see here, try the gospels …

The gods go back on Mount Olympus. All of them.

So - have I left anything out, that we’ve lost to Christianity?
What do you think?

Well, Christianity actually. What has all that religious guff to do with loving your neighbour as yourself and forgiving evil?

 

[Treedbear]

...
So why on earth should I pray?

Well - it’s not a case of ‘should’ - it’s just that I can, and it nurtures me.
When I watch the sunset, or see anything which stirs me deeply, my gratitude and feeling of connection with the cosmos is real prayer. It’s not talking to some imaginary friend, it’s not forming words at all. It is simply resonating silently with all that is - that is prayer, and I’m reclaiming it. ...

I'm atheistic, but to be honest I might rather say "recovering Roman Catholic Christian". It ain't easy, let me tell ya. Lack of self respect and personal accountablity come to mind as the primary sacrifices. One thing that helps me though is that while its natural and good to feel a reverence for the beauty of nature and all that sustains human kind, it's really not necessary to conflate this with the artificial notion of gratitude. The universe as such isn't sentient or intelligent. That's anthropomorphic ... the bane of scientific inquiry. I revere nature, but I don't worship nature. That said, the worship of nature would be much less destructive than the worship of a God.

 

[migrant]

I've not reclaimed worship yet Treedbear, that would be a tricky one, but I do differ in that I see matter as an expression of consciousness, and therefore sentient.
Perhaps gratitude was the wrong word, it implies too much - I think 'pleasure' would be a better fit -- thanks.
I can certainly share your preference for nature over "God."
Each to his own, and I wish you well on your path of recovery.
I'm an escapee too ...

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

...
So why on earth should I pray?

Well - it’s not a case of ‘should’ - it’s just that I can, and it nurtures me.
When I watch the sunset, or see anything which stirs me deeply, my gratitude and feeling of connection with the cosmos is real prayer. It’s not talking to some imaginary friend, it’s not forming words at all. It is simply resonating silently with all that is - that is prayer, and I’m reclaiming it. ...

I'm atheistic, but to be honest I might rather say "recovering Roman Catholic Christian". It ain't easy, let me tell ya. Lack of self respect and personal accountablity come to mind as the primary sacrifices. One thing that helps me though is that while its natural and good to feel a reverence for the beauty of nature and all that sustains human kind, it's really not necessary to conflate this with the artificial notion of gratitude. The universe as such isn't sentient or intelligent. That's anthropomorphic ... the bane of scientific inquiry. I revere nature, but I don't worship nature. That said, the worship of nature would be much less destructive than the worship of a God.

That whole worship thing is weird. I never did get it. These things people called gods were actually just some kind of overpowering emotional mental state, in reflection. That's not the same thing as worshipping something, so I never was a worshipper I guess.

Today I consider myself a scientific naturalist and am as content and empowered as any human can be. Atheism was kind of an intermediary phase, rather like when you're still a kid but you already know Santa and the Tooth Fairy are no longer real. Atheism happened simply because of religion, as evidenced by the fact that the word itself derives from religious roots. Scientific Naturalism is to me the adult form of atheism because it's more than just atheism, it's an intellectual emergence from the influence of all wooisms. Atheism is simply discovering that gods aren't real. There isn't a similar word to describe discovering that Santa isn't real but we should have one.

 

[another1]

It’s well known that Christianity changed the old winter festival into the modern version - thus stealing one of the most meaningful events of year, and perverting its meaning.
I feel I have identified other things that Christianity has perverted, things which are part of a fully realised human existence, and I reclaim them as best I can.

Is there anything more stomach-churning, more toe-curlingly embarrassing than the prayers of the pious?
So why on earth should I pray?

Well - it’s not a case of ‘should’ - it’s just that I can, and it nurtures me.
When I watch the sunset, or see anything which stirs me deeply, my gratitude and feeling of connection with the cosmos is real prayer. It’s not talking to some imaginary friend, it’s not forming words at all. It is simply resonating silently with all that is - that is prayer, and I’m reclaiming it.

According to Paul of Tarsus, faith is "the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for.”
Others describe it as believing in something you know isn’t true.
Either push us into an attitude of dependance and make us the victims of events.
This ‘faith’ is particularly reassuring if you have a basic fear of not being good enough, but have made a slimy deal with the Almighty.

That fear was a vital part of the spread of Christianity, without it, we can live in a benign universe and have faith in ourselves and each other.
So I’m reclaiming faith as well, and putting it in people - positive responses are frequent enough to make it well worthwhile.

Have you noticed that Christians don’t often refer to Jehovah - they’ve stolen the word ‘God’ regardless of the fact that there are hundreds of gods.
Is this because when we study the Old Testament we soon see that Jehovah urges His followers to slaughter children ……?
Move along folks, nothing to see here, try the gospels …

The gods go back on Mount Olympus. All of them.

So - have I left anything out, that we’ve lost to Christianity?
What do you think?

Do you get a different "buzz" from Christianity than when you sat on the rock and meditated in the sun? The reclaiming feeling I'm guessing feels good. so you can call it a buzz. After all that is exactly what it is. I'm only asking out of curiosity.

 

[migrant]

"Do you get a different "buzz" from Christianity than when you sat on the rock and meditated in the sun?"
Interesting question another1.
I certainly had some excitement as a Christian, in 1969 I worked for an outfit in Germany called Underground Evangelism, and helped to smuggle bibles to the Church behind the Iron Curtain.
I'm not sure that 'buzz' is exactly the word, but meeting Christians who risked everything to worship, and being told by one man I handed a bible to that he'd been praying for it for 15 years was an experience I'll never forget. There were many others.
The main emotion I remember from my time then was guilt -- but all emotions were seen through the prism of my 'faith' and when not exploring my youthful sex-drive, I was usually repenting.

Now, when I resonate with the creation, it is without any of the philosophical baggage that religion carries with it -- or to put it in your terms, a buzz with no downside.
Thanks for asking.

 

[migrant]

joedad, thanks for your thoughts, re-reading them I came to the understanding that worship has an invidious influence from my point of view.
It separates the worshipper from the object of worship -- creates an inevitable divide between one tiny part of Creation and all the rest.
I prefer to operate on the principle that "All is One and One is All."

But I can see what a huge part this divide has played in religion, both in my own life, and in the Church in general.
Thanks again.

 

[another1]

"Do you get a different "buzz" from Christianity than when you sat on the rock and meditated in the sun?"
Interesting question another1.
I certainly had some excitement as a Christian, in 1969 I worked for an outfit in Germany called Underground Evangelism, and helped to smuggle bibles to the Church behind the Iron Curtain.
I'm not sure that 'buzz' is exactly the word, but meeting Christians who risked everything to worship, and being told by one man I handed a bible to that he'd been praying for it for 15 years was an experience I'll never forget. There were many others.
The main emotion I remember from my time then was guilt -- but all emotions were seen through the prism of my 'faith' and when not exploring my youthful sex-drive, I was usually repenting.

Now, when I resonate with the creation, it is without any of the philosophical baggage that religion carries with it -- or to put it in your terms, a buzz with no downside.
Thanks for asking.

Smuggling Bibles is more like adrenalin I'd think. Sounds neat. I was thinking about the mental state of general Christianity (the buzz of acceptance, guilt and eternal life) vs the meditation and sunlight rituals you mentioned. They make different neurochemical properties and they both feel good. Just as beneficial to you. For all we know, just as meaningful in life.

I just figured there was a chance at a double-banger buzz. Like, practicing your own habits that make you feel good spiritually along with a brand-name Religion that has a lot of energies tied into it. Maybe a way to sort of direct or harness the buzz. Germany and 1969 threw me off there. Not sure if you'd mind but I'd actually rather hear about that.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

joedad, thanks for your thoughts, re-reading them I came to the understanding that worship has an invidious influence from my point of view.
It separates the worshipper from the object of worship -- creates an inevitable divide between one tiny part of Creation and all the rest.
I prefer to operate on the principle that "All is One and One is All."

But I can see what a huge part this divide has played in religion, both in my own life, and in the Church in general.
Thanks again.

Religion comes in degrees of affliction, but I think the underlying operative is a propensity toward mental illness. As rational creatures we should know that a baby spaceman conceived of a magic spaceman father and a human mother didn't visit us 2000 years ago, grow up, get itself killed, come back to life and then fly away back into the sky. That's really goofy shit. It's only possible to believe such nonsense for any period of time if our rational faculties have been compromised. And thinking about how those rational faculties can become compromised is the interesting part.

Much of what we call mental illness today can have great survival advantages given the proper environment, an environment far more common in our human past than today. That's how I account for religion's popularity.

 

[Underseer]

Actually, prayer is part of how religious indoctrination works.

 

[Ruth Harris]

Religion comes in degrees of affliction, but I think the underlying operative is a propensity toward mental illness. As rational creatures we should know that a baby spaceman conceived of a magic spaceman father and a human mother didn't visit us 2000 years ago, grow up, get itself killed, come back to life and then fly away back into the sky. That's really goofy shit. It's only possible to believe such nonsense for any period of time if our rational faculties have been compromised. And thinking about how those rational faculties can become compromised is the interesting part.

Much of what we call mental illness today can have great survival advantages given the proper environment, an environment far more common in our human past than today. That's how I account for religion's popularity.

Ouch. This viewpoint you are espousing doesn't make me angry, but it does cause me some emotional pain that someone would think I was mentally ill just because I happen to be a believer. That seems a little excessive

Ruth

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Religion comes in degrees of affliction, but I think the underlying operative is a propensity toward mental illness. As rational creatures we should know that a baby spaceman conceived of a magic spaceman father and a human mother didn't visit us 2000 years ago, grow up, get itself killed, come back to life and then fly away back into the sky. That's really goofy shit. It's only possible to believe such nonsense for any period of time if our rational faculties have been compromised. And thinking about how those rational faculties can become compromised is the interesting part.

Much of what we call mental illness today can have great survival advantages given the proper environment, an environment far more common in our human past than today. That's how I account for religion's popularity.

Ouch. This viewpoint you are espousing doesn't make me angry, but it does cause me some emotional pain that someone would think I was mentally ill just because I happen to be a believer. That seems a little excessive

Ruth

Unbeknownst to me at the time my new workmate was also a Christian pastor. We got to discussing Shakespeare - can't remember how - and he remarked that Shakespeare was a Christian. My immediate response was, "Sure he was. If you weren't Christian they hauled you into the center of town and set you on fire." He didn't even respond. I think he was shocked.

He's a great guy and says he's always looking for material for his sermons. I'm sure I've made the pulpit on a few occasions.

Think about Paul and his vision. Think about Bernadette. Did you ever read the account of St Francis of Assissi? Recall Joan of Arc. These are all people having psychotic breaks. Of course, in their day these psychotic breaks were religious experiences. They are the same thing that I am intimately familiar with in my own family.

If you've never spent time with a bipolar individual during a manic episode you really should. Their energy is off the scale. They are promiscuous to a fault. They're constantly inventing things, contraptions to solve problems that don't need solved. They mention gods and angels and afterlives all the time. They get into legal trouble and do really stupid things because their judgement has been compromised. They tell you they've witnessed things happening that you know did not happen. They spend money like drunken sailors. They hear voices constantly. They rarely sleep.

In my amateurish view these qualities they exhibit would have greatly enhanced their ability to survive and reproduce, particularly in a world sparsely populated where such individuals could be left to themselves, farming, hunting, fucking, etc. Only as human population increased did the behavior become less desirable. But it still expresses in the gene pool quite regularly because at one time it was normal and widespread, even desirable. We may very well owe the survival or our species to mental illness.

So I do see religious behavior as a legacy of these times. It's a rational way to explain people engaging in irrational behavior, invisible spacemen, spirits, ghosts, souls, angels, supernatural places, visions, voices, etc. It all makes sense using this model.

 

[Ruth Harris]

Ouch. This viewpoint you are espousing doesn't make me angry, but it does cause me some emotional pain that someone would think I was mentally ill just because I happen to be a believer. That seems a little excessive

Ruth

Unbeknownst to me at the time my new workmate was also a Christian pastor. We got to discussing Shakespeare - can't remember how - and he remarked that Shakespeare was a Christian. My immediate response was, "Sure he was. If you weren't Christian they hauled you into the center of town and set you on fire." He didn't even respond. I think he was shocked.

He's a great guy and says he's always looking for material for his sermons. I'm sure I've made the pulpit on a few occasions.

Think about Paul and his vision. Think about Bernadette. Did you ever read the account of St Francis of Assissi? Recall Joan of Arc. These are all people having psychotic breaks. Of course, in their day these psychotic breaks were religious experiences. They are the same thing that I am intimately familiar with in my own family.

If you've never spent time with a bipolar individual during a manic episode you really should. Their energy is off the scale. They are promiscuous to a fault. They're constantly inventing things, contraptions to solve problems that don't need solved. They mention gods and angels and afterlives all the time. They get into legal trouble and do really stupid things because their judgement has been compromised. They tell you they've witnessed things happening that you know did not happen. They spend money like drunken sailors. They hear voices constantly. They rarely sleep.

In my amateurish view these qualities they exhibit would have greatly enhanced their ability to survive and reproduce, particularly in a world sparsely populated where such individuals could be left to themselves, farming, hunting, fucking, etc. Only as human population increased did the behavior become less desirable. But it still expresses in the gene pool quite regularly because at one time it was normal and widespread, even desirable. We may very well owe the survival or our species to mental illness.

So I do see religious behavior as a legacy of these times. It's a rational way to explain people engaging in irrational behavior, invisible spacemen, spirits, ghosts, souls, angels, supernatural places, visions, voices, etc. It all makes sense using this model.

But you seem to be painting all believers with a broad brush here. Do you consider your workmate the pastor to be mentally ill? Does he hear voices or or see things no one else can see? Or do you just base this on the idea that we believe in something that you don't think is rational? Do you think that anything without solid physical/mathematical proofs but based strictly on human emotion is based in insanity since it cannot be considered rational? I am honestly curious here about your stance.

Ruth

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

But you seem to be painting all believers with a broad brush here. Do you consider your workmate the pastor to be mentally ill? Does he hear voices or or see things no one else can see? Or do you just base this on the idea that we believe in something that you don't think is rational? Do you think that anything without solid physical/mathematical proofs but based strictly on human emotion is based in insanity since it cannot be considered rational? I am honestly curious here about your stance.

Ruth

Of course I do, although his illness is not debilitating and does not require intervention. He's not a danger to himself or his friends but I hold he is mentally ill. If my pastor friend thinks there is an invisible spaceman living in the sky that is interested in his sex organs I most certainly think my pastor friend is mentally impaired in some way. So yes, that would qualify as mental illness in my view.

He says he talks with and communicates with this invisible spaceman. I don't know if he's had psychotic episodes or visions or hears the spaceman's voice. I don't think so as he seems otherwise quite the normal likeable family guy and we get along nicely. And there's nothing insane about having emotions.

Mental illness is like any other illness or injury, it is a matter of degree. You can have a laceration on your arm that doesn't affect your life in any way. You can also have a much more serious laceration that puts you in hospital and keeps you from work for months. They're both injuries. One is debilitating, one is not.

I should add that the really crazy crazies are mostly gone or society identifies and deals with them. The ones who's psychoses caused them to leap from cliffs or pick up venomous snakes are gone. What remains are the ones who tell us they can do these things with the help of the spaceman but don't actually try. Natural selection has eliminated most of the certifiably insane.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Or do you just base this on the idea that we believe in something that you don't think is rational?

If I tell you I read LOTR fourty-eleven times and from that learned how to forge a magic sword to fight off the orcs that live under my basement, you'll form an opinion of my sanity.

If I say I wrote to Dr. Gregory House with the symptoms I'm experiencing, and he came to my house at midnight and cured me, you'll form an opinion.

My friend who played D&D with me went to sick call and gave the symptoms his elf mage exhibited after the character slept with a whore in a tavern in Greyhawk, and fumbled his 'save versus STDs' roll and woke up with an invisible dick... The Navy has an official opinion on his sanity. A widely accepted one, too...

IF I tell you that the second time I met my FTB Detailer, he asked what billet I wanted, and I said I wanted to be the Intel officer on the USS Enterprise, and he thought I meant the aircraft carrier, but I insisted it was NCC 1701, and demanded the Intel school, you'd form an opinion.






But if you tell me that your favorite skybeast was going to throw you into Hell, for eternity, to punish you for, at a minimum, someone else fucking things up and dooming all their descendants, like you, to pay for THEIR sin, but your second favorite skybeast stood up for you, arguing with the first skybeast, (who is the same skybeast) because he came to Earth and got tortured to death...by descendants of the first sinners... But this time he forgave them their sins, rather than curse them even more...
You tell me this and, what, I'm supposed to say, Hey, it's your opinion....?

 

[iolo]

I think 'religion' is a very different thing in America from what it is in Europe, though, as with Islam, it is tending to grow crazier everywhere as the rich fundamentalists buy it up.

 

[Sarpedon]

I prefer to refer to religion as a "Social Illness" rather than a "Mental Illness." Everyone understands that a person's social group influences them, and everyone has some familiarity with dysfunctional social groups that warp its members. We can avoid some of the confrontationalism by speaking to the effects of the social group rather than individual problems of perception. For my part, my own realization of my mental blinders came as a result of seeing the flaws of my social group.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Understanding religion can be as easy as understanding the invention of religious language, as the previous post nicely demonstrates. Once you translate the standard religious language into what the words actually mean, the psychosis becomes apparent.

I've been told it's really all about engaging in comforting rituals. That's obviously okay as I have many of my own routines that other people would find tedious and bothersome.

Going to church on Sunday to take part in consecration and communion I've been told is just another comforting ritual. But what is "consecration?" It's when you turn refined wheat flour and wine into the flesh and blood of a long dead invisible hybrid spaceman that got killed, came back to life and flew away into the sky. What is "communion?" It's when you eat the spaceman.

People have told me it's just about having a ritual communal meal. I would beg to differ, as this is not what their own catechism professes. And religion is full of this doublespeak. In fact if it weren't for doublespeak and euphemism I don't think religion would be able to survive.

 

[iolo]

Anglicans here are surprisingly decent and well-meaning for mainly well-off conservative types. I was brought up a serious Christian Socialist, and it is the growing unlikeliness of a God in so huge and complicated a universe/universes that put me off churches, together with the extraordinary grovelling to a 'father' who sounds more like a fifth-century BC non-ok tyrant that put me off the Church in Wales.