Reductionism

[untermensche]

Past,present, and future are subjective human concepts.

What is an objective human concept?

Concepts are not objective.

Let the man figure it out for himself.

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What is a "part"?

If a motor uses an electric field is the field a "part"?

So is there any difference between that and a funnel placed in a gravitational field determining time by controlling rate of sand flow through it? I ask you. Is there?

Juxtaposition is not cause.

Is gravity a part?

 

[ryan]

Past,present, and future are subjective human concepts.

The past exists as memory and records.

So are you saying that time does not in exist as a 4th dimension? That is a huge claim.

 

[fromderinside]

Concepts are not objective.

Let the man figure it out for himself.

- - - Updated - - -

What is a "part"?

If a motor uses an electric field is the field a "part"?

So is there any difference between that and a funnel placed in a gravitational field determining time by controlling rate of sand flow through it? I ask you. Is there?

Juxtaposition is not cause.

Is gravity a part?

Dense. Read. It's a gravity field ferchrisake. ...and no, energy isn't a part either.

 

[untermensche]

It's bent space ferchrisake!

Your opinion is noted.

 

[steve_bank]

Past,present, and future are subjective human concepts.

The past exists as memory and records.

So are you saying that time does not in exist as a 4th dimension? That is a huge claim.

I have had this discussion with many times in past years.

Scientifically time in seconds is a dimension no more or less real than the meter and kilogram.

Space time is 4 dimensions [x,y.z.t] in meters and seconds.

Time as some kind of independent reality is scifi. Subjective perseptions of time are the result of brain chemistry/

 

[ryan]

Past,present, and future are subjective human concepts.

The past exists as memory and records.

So are you saying that time does not in exist as a 4th dimension? That is a huge claim.

I have had this discussion with many times in past years.

Scientifically time in seconds is a dimension no more or less real than the meter and kilogram.

kilogram?

Space time is 4 dimensions [x,y.z.t] in meters and seconds.

Okay, then why do you say that the present is gone after it happens?

 

[bilby]

In a block universe (eternalism) nothing emerges. Everything is eternal without change. However, this seems to go against our perception of reality.

But with a growing block universe, things become. The present emerges. This maybe just for the consciousness, or it might be that a new identity of the whole universe constantly emerges. Either way, new perceptions emerge, or the present emerges - something emerges!

Something seems to be emerging while much stays conserved.

A growing block universe assumes the existence of a universal now.

Relativity says that there's no such thing.

Personally I am not ready to ditch the extraordinarily well tested and robust theory of relativity, in order to keep open the possibility that an untested contradictory hypothesis might be true.

A growing block universe is attractive to many people for many reasons. That is completely irrelevant to its actual existence.

It seems to me that the universe must be a block universe; The many worlds interpretation would imply that the block has many branches, which might be a comfort to those unable to abandon their preferred concept of free will.

Personally I lean towards the idea that the future is fixed, but (for any given observer) unknowable. There's no need to get more complicated than that - although some more complicated possibilities (such as many worlds) certainly exist.

For sure we need to abandon those ideas that are not possible, if we care to actually work towards greater understanding of reality.

 

[steve_bank]

I have had this discussion with many times in past years.

Scientifically time in seconds is a dimension no more or less real than the meter and kilogram.

kilogram?

Space time is 4 dimensions [x,y.z.t] in meters and seconds.

Okay, then why do you say that the present is gone after it happens?

Sorry, I can not play this game with you.

 

[ryan]

In a block universe (eternalism) nothing emerges. Everything is eternal without change. However, this seems to go against our perception of reality.

But with a growing block universe, things become. The present emerges. This maybe just for the consciousness, or it might be that a new identity of the whole universe constantly emerges. Either way, new perceptions emerge, or the present emerges - something emerges!

Something seems to be emerging while much stays conserved.

A growing block universe assumes the existence of a universal now.

Relativity says that there's no such thing.

Personally I am not ready to ditch the extraordinarily well tested and robust theory of relativity, in order to keep open the possibility that an untested contradictory hypothesis might be true.

A growing block universe is attractive to many people for many reasons. That is completely irrelevant to its actual existence.

It seems to me that the universe must be a block universe; The many worlds interpretation would imply that the block has many branches, which might be a comfort to those unable to abandon their preferred concept of free will.

Personally I lean towards the idea that the future is fixed, but (for any given observer) unknowable. There's no need to get more complicated than that - although some more complicated possibilities (such as many worlds) certainly exist.

For sure we need to abandon those ideas that are not possible, if we care to actually work towards greater understanding of reality.

Actually, if you were to go purely by science, which is what you seem to prefer to do anyways, you would be left with an undetermined universe. There is no evidence that supports MWT. The evidence supports a growing block universe in the sense that the future has not yet been determined. And what's wrong with that anyways? Einstein didn't like it, and look where it got em, and still to this day nobody has been able to dismiss "god's dice".

 

[Bomb#20]

In a block universe (eternalism) nothing emerges. Everything is eternal without change. However, this seems to go against our perception of reality.

But with a growing block universe, things become. The present emerges. This maybe just for the consciousness, or it might be that a new identity of the whole universe constantly emerges. Either way, new perceptions emerge, or the present emerges - something emerges!

Something seems to be emerging while much stays conserved.

A growing block universe assumes the existence of a universal now.

Relativity says that there's no such thing.

How does a growing block universe assume the existence of a universal now? It's basically a crystal growth model -- new spacetime gets added to the surface of the block of existing spacetime. So a "universal now" would presumably be a (hyper)plane that has block of spacetime on one side, and does not yet have any spacetime on the other side, that can serve as a preferred reference frame. Which is to say, it's a face of the crystal. So why would a flat face have to exist anywhere on the growing block? Who says the crystal has to grow uniformly?

 

[Speakpigeon]

Personally I am not ready to ditch the extraordinarily well tested and robust theory of relativity, in order to keep open the possibility that an untested contradictory hypothesis might be true.

You don't need to ditch anything. It's good enough to keep an open mind.

It seems to me that the universe must be a block universe (...)

Personally I lean towards the idea that the future is fixed, but (for any given observer) unknowable.

Me I don't understand how the universe could possibly be somehow like a "block", and the future in any way "fixed" if the sequence of future events will depend on the relativistic referential of the observer.

Which observer's universe? Which observer's future?

I wish I had done physics when I still could!
EB

 

[skepticalbip]

..........snip..........

I wish I had done physics when I still could!
EB

You still can if you really want to....

https://www.today.com/news/50-years-later-94-year-old-woman-graduates-college-4-t107141

50 years later, 94-year-old woman graduates college with 4.0 GPA

Amy Craton will tell you it’s never too late to finish what you’ve started, even if it takes more than five decades to do it.

The 94-year-old great-grandmother this week celebrated receiving her college degree, which she earned with a perfect 4.0 grade point average.

Craton had put her education on hold in 1962 to return to work and raise her four children following a divorce.

 

[bilby]

In a block universe (eternalism) nothing emerges. Everything is eternal without change. However, this seems to go against our perception of reality.

But with a growing block universe, things become. The present emerges. This maybe just for the consciousness, or it might be that a new identity of the whole universe constantly emerges. Either way, new perceptions emerge, or the present emerges - something emerges!

Something seems to be emerging while much stays conserved.

A growing block universe assumes the existence of a universal now.

Relativity says that there's no such thing.

How does a growing block universe assume the existence of a universal now? It's basically a crystal growth model -- new spacetime gets added to the surface of the block of existing spacetime. So a "universal now" would presumably be a (hyper)plane that has block of spacetime on one side, and does not yet have any spacetime on the other side, that can serve as a preferred reference frame. Which is to say, it's a face of the crystal. So why would a flat face have to exist anywhere on the growing block? Who says the crystal has to grow uniformly?

How can that hyperplane have a shape that allows for events to have different sequence for different observers?

 

[Speakpigeon]

..........snip..........

I wish I had done physics when I still could!
EB

You still can if you really want to....

You still can learn to justify your views.

50 years later, 94-year-old woman graduates college with 4.0 GPA

Amy Craton will tell you it’s never too late to finish what you’ve started, even if it takes more than five decades to do it.

The 94-year-old great-grandmother this week celebrated receiving her college degree, which she earned with a perfect 4.0 grade point average.

Craton had put her education on hold in 1962 to return to work and raise her four children following a divorce.

Quite the similar story.

Well done, Ma'!
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

How does a growing block universe assume the existence of a universal now? It's basically a crystal growth model -- new spacetime gets added to the surface of the block of existing spacetime. So a "universal now" would presumably be a (hyper)plane that has block of spacetime on one side, and does not yet have any spacetime on the other side, that can serve as a preferred reference frame. Which is to say, it's a face of the crystal. So why would a flat face have to exist anywhere on the growing block? Who says the crystal has to grow uniformly?

How can that hyperplane have a shape that allows for events to have different sequence for different observers?

Yeah, that's exactly what I'd like to understand.
EB

 

[DBT]

What could the nature of 'now' even be in relation to Eternalism?

 

[untermensche]

What could the nature of 'now' even be in relation to Eternalism?

Now only has meaning to something that is experiencing and knows it is experiencing and knows it has been experiencing in the past just as it is experiencing now.

 

[ryan]

What could the nature of 'now' even be in relation to Eternalism?

It can be thought of as something like a "spotlight" projecting information as it moves through the universe's eternal structure. It is the "mental now" even though everything physical is already there. See http://web.mit.edu/bskow/www/research/timeinrelativity.pdf .

 

[fromderinside]

Well a broken clock can be right twice a day. You see. There it is now......... and again now ......

 

[DBT]

What could the nature of 'now' even be in relation to Eternalism?

It can be thought of as something like a "spotlight" projecting information as it moves through the universe's eternal structure. It is the "mental now" even though everything physical is already there. See http://web.mit.edu/bskow/www/research/timeinrelativity.pdf .

Possibly. Yet measurement of time/rates of change appears to be related to entropy, physical processes.....