Religion And The Placebo Effect

[Keith&Co.]

If the afterlife is not real then there is nothing to worry about. Its if it is real that the worry may begin.

If brain eating zombies from the planet Zombgon are not real then there is nothing to worry about. Its if it is real that the worry may begin.

Someone was asked if he had a plan for the zombie uprising. He said, x"I don't even own a fire extinguisher, and fire is real."

 

[southernhybrid]

First, let me say that the concept of an afterlife is silly to me.

But, since we're playing what if.....What if the afterlife was based on how many good things you do for others, and has absolutely nothing to do with what you believe? If there was an afterlife, that would make a lot more sense to me. Why the fuck would any reasonable god care whether or not you believed in its existence? Wouldn't a decent god be more concerned with social justice, then with praying?

And, the Christian afterlife sounds boring to me. "When we've been there 10,000 days, bright shining as the sun, we've no less days to sing god's praise that when we first begun". Seriously? What would be the point of that? Church was boring enough when I was forced to go during my entire childhood. Why would I want to spend eternity singing the praises of an egotistical god?


Religion is a placebo for those who are unable to accept that we are mortal, that we have this one short life, and if we are very fortunate, we will find purpose and love in this life and accept that the end will come, sometimes long before we would like.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Why are we playing he What If game? The rules on the box don't make for consistent results or even outcomes.

What if God had a long lifetime, like the bristlecone pine tree, but he died a while ago and all his policies lapsed with him?
What if God has multiple personalities, and Satan is just his name for his 'dark place' mood?
What if God self-medicates, went completely off-program in Genesis 8, for example, and could go apeshit any day now?
What if heaven has a soundtrack, and it's Tammy Faye Bakker's greatest hits?
What if God really did put Trump in office? (See 'Satan is just his...')
What if God is gay, and he will exact a crippling vengeance on the homophobic American nation?
What if God developed a slow-growing cancer from the OT burnt offerings that sent smoke ascending to his domain, and he's determined to take everyone with him when he goes?
What if God started into senility at the age of a jillion and forty, and now has to use two hands to hold a cup of water, unless he really thinks about it?

Did I cover all the What Ifs?
No, here's the last one.
What if God does have a sense of humor, like the pastor on the corner says, but it's expressed as uproarious laughter at Pauly Shore movies?
Done.

 

[steve_bank]

The afterlife and a heavenly reward is a placebo meant to alleviate pain.

In the gospels Jesus says bear your pain even if you are a slave, believe and you will have a heavenly eternal reward.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I don't think we're all ghosts so yes, an afterlife claim is pretty bizarro. If I were so bizarro as to sincerely think I was a ghost and was going to live forever, I'd hardly be about making mundane posts like these. Rather I'd be about guaranteeing my eternal bliss. So from a rational informed, perspective there isn't anyone here who genuinely acts like they expect to live forever. The three amigo theists don't act like they think they're going to live forever or they wouldn't be be taking the time to have such a banal discussion.

Does anyone here really think we're all ghosts?

 

[Politesse]

In the gospels Jesus says bear your pain even if you are a slave, believe and you will have a heavenly eternal reward.

Ah yes, that must be from the Gospel of Thaddeus, Chapter 85.

 

[steve_bank]

Without the hope of the resurrections based on the gospels and an afterlife in lory there is no Christianity.

Christianity is a cult of pain. Bloody crucifixes with a crown of thorns and a face of agony. We had one in my church as a kid. The Christian message is always bear your suffering there is a reward if you believe. Without that there is Christianity for the masses.

Augustine thout a little self flagellation was good for the soul.

Pain and suffering and feeling good about it is part of Christianity. The placebo effect.

Jesus said pick up your cross and follow. You can spin any number of interpretaions.

The image of Jesus in the gospels is one of continuous pain and suffering. Ending in torture and crucifix ion. Pain and suffering.

 

[atrib]

What if the afterlife is like a placebo effect? What if the only thing you need do to survive that "singularity" called death is for your "soul" to have a strong enough immune system - faith.

What if atheism weakens your souls immune system so much that it doesnt ever wake up again after that sleep.

What is a soul? And how does one go about verifying its existence?

I think we should leave the debate about the impact of atheism on the soul to later, after the terms have been defined and the premises verified.

Lion, are you going to answer these questions, or are you just sniping from the sidelines?

 

[James Brown]

There's far too much work to be done in this world to spend much time worrying about the next.

“While I am opposed to all orthodox creeds, I have a creed myself; and my creed is this. Happiness is the only good. The time to be happy is now. The place to be happy to be here. The way to be happy is to m:ake others so. This creed is somewhat short, but it is long enough for this life, strong enough for this world. If there is another world, when we get there we can make another creed. But this creed certainly will do for this life.”

--Robert Greene Ingersoll

 

[Lion IRC]

What if the afterlife is like a placebo effect? What if the only thing you need do to survive that "singularity" called death is for your "soul" to have a strong enough immune system - faith.

What if atheism weakens your souls immune system so much that it doesnt ever wake up again after that sleep.

What is a soul? And how does one go about verifying its existence?

I think we should leave the debate about the impact of atheism on the soul to later, after the terms have been defined and the premises verified.

Lion, are you going to answer these questions, or are you just sniping from the sidelines?

I had given up on responding to your posts because of your machine gun negative rep button usage.
...but I guess that doesn't apply now.

I'll answer your questions if you agree that the demonstrable, or even tentative existence of a soul (discarnate consciousness) would be a relevant consideration here. But there's no point me elaborating in reply to your question if you're just gonna say...I dont accept your definition of the word "soul".

My guess is youre gonna special plead that free will soul = quantum electrodynamic mirage.

 

[steve_bank]

Lion, are you going to answer these questions, or are you just sniping from the sidelines?

I had given up on responding to your posts because of your machine gun negative rep button usage.
...but I guess that doesn't apply now.

I'll answer your questions if you agree that the demonstrable, or even tentative existence of a soul (discarnate consciousness) would be a relevant consideration here. But there's no point me elaborating in reply to your question if you're just gonna say...I dont accept your definition of the word "soul".

My guess is youre gonna special plead that free will soul = quantum electrodynamic mirage.

View attachment 28555

That is truly blizzard.

Soul like god is something Christians talk about without any definition.

To me soul is the summation of who you are. Feelings, emotions, beliefs. Your emotional center. In Chritian terms sin is what corrupts and takes you off your center.

 

[atrib]

Lion, are you going to answer these questions, or are you just sniping from the sidelines?

I had given up on responding to your posts because of your machine gun negative rep button usage.
...but I guess that doesn't apply now.

I had given you negative rep two or three times, one of which was for excessive whining about getting a negative rep. Hardly a "machine gun" usage scenario.

I'll answer your questions if you agree that the demonstrable, or even tentative existence of a soul (discarnate consciousness) would be a relevant consideration here.

Its relevant because you brought it up. You made a claim; all I am asking for is a definition of the term, and how others can go about verifying that such a thing exists. If you had made the claim "changing engine oil frequently extends the longevity of a car engine", there would be no need for further clarification since most people in the modern world know what a car is, and have some understanding of how engines work. The same is not true for this thing called a soul that you claim exists, and which allegedly is positively influenced by belief in imaginary supercreatures.

But there's no point me elaborating in reply to your question if you're just gonna say...I dont accept your definition of the word "soul".

If you support your definition with instructions on how the existence of souls can be independently verified, and I succeed in verifying your claim, I will accept your definition.

My guess is youre gonna special plead that free will soul = quantum electrodynamic mirage.

I have no idea what this means. Can you clarify?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

That is truly blizzard.

Soul like god is something Christians talk about without any definition.

To me soul is the summation of who you are. Feelings, emotions, beliefs. Your emotional center. In Chritian terms sin is what corrupts and takes you off your center.

It seems like Lion is hoping to make ghosts into something scientific. People have been into that sort of woo forever. You can find tons of youtube videos that show us ghosts, even go on netflix and learn about ancient aliens. It misses the larger question of what precisely is going on in the brain of a person who claims to have a ghost living inside them, and is in constant communication with billions of other ghosts.

It really just illustrates how amenable the brains are to suggestion, which is what the placebo effect demonstrates.

 

[steve_bank]

That is truly blizzard.

Soul like god is something Christians talk about without any definition.

To me soul is the summation of who you are. Feelings, emotions, beliefs. Your emotional center. In Chritian terms sin is what corrupts and takes you off your center.

It seems like Lion is hoping to make ghosts into something scientific. People have been into that sort of woo forever. You can find tons of youtube videos that show us ghosts, even go on netflix and learn about ancient aliens. It misses the larger question of what precisely is going on in the brain of a person who claims to have a ghost living inside them, and is in constant communication with billions of other ghosts.

It really just illustrates how amenable the brains are to suggestion, which is what the placebo effect demonstrates.

I sometimes listen to Coast To Coast AM on late night radio. Pure pseudo science. Ghosts, UFOs. Sometimes Christian prophesy. Great entertainment.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

That is truly blizzard.

Soul like god is something Christians talk about without any definition.

To me soul is the summation of who you are. Feelings, emotions, beliefs. Your emotional center. In Chritian terms sin is what corrupts and takes you off your center.

It seems like Lion is hoping to make ghosts into something scientific. People have been into that sort of woo forever. You can find tons of youtube videos that show us ghosts, even go on netflix and learn about ancient aliens. It misses the larger question of what precisely is going on in the brain of a person who claims to have a ghost living inside them, and is in constant communication with billions of other ghosts.

It really just illustrates how amenable the brains are to suggestion, which is what the placebo effect demonstrates.

I sometimes listen to Coast To Coast AM on late night radio. Pure pseudo science. Ghosts, UFOs. Sometimes Christian prophesy. Great entertainment.

It should be called Ghost to Ghost radio.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

(should we tell Lion that a placebo isn't real and that therefore he's comparing something not real to something he thinks is real?)

 

[steve_bank]

The conclusion of the show I listened to was that the effects are real. Also that there are aspects that can be used I medine.

 

[Politesse]

(should we tell Lion that a placebo isn't real and that therefore he's comparing something not real to something he thinks is real?)

The placebo effect is real, it's the cause that's in question.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

The conclusion of the show I listened to was that the effects are real.

The effects are real in that they allow the mind to trigger the immune system in the same (or similar) way as an active ingredient would. What Lion is referring to, however, is something completely different.

Also that there are aspects that can be used I medine.

That's not exactly new. The placebo effect has been a staple of medicine for decades. It's why doctors where white smocks and act as if they have all of the answers. It's deliberately invoking the placebo effect, only they probably think of it more in terms of "authority" and the like.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

(should we tell Lion that a placebo isn't real and that therefore he's comparing something not real to something he thinks is real?)

The placebo effect is real, it's the cause that's in question.

I know. I said the placebo isn't real (i.e., not an active drug), not that the effect isn't real. Lion, however, said:

What if the afterlife is a placebo effect

That would mean that the afterlife was not real--not actual--but only the brain tricking the mind into thinking it was real. I'm sure this in fact does happen, just as in a dream the mind (self) is tricked into thinking that events take days or weeks or even years when in fact the dream itself just lasts a few seconds or minutes.

When we die, our brain likely does the same thing; imbues the mind (self) with the illusion of seeing old relatives and friends and making us think we are living an eternity that in the real world lasts as long as it takes for brain death to occur.

Dreams prove that an eternity can be experienced in a second for a dying mind. And we've all heard the stories of how time slows in a car crash/near death experience and "my life flashed before my eyes" etc.

And we know the "tunnel of light" is actually what happens when the optic nerves shut down (it's literally the last thing you see), etc and just about every other thing (out of body experiences, for example) are all currently well understood.

When the brain dies, it simply floods the body with drugs and part of that is most likely a very long and pleasant dream (from the perspective of the self), but it doesn't need to be an actual eternity. It can all happen in a drop of a chemical.