Religion As A Cult

[steve_bank]

In movies and in history there is the image of a cult, with mostly negative connotation.

Rake the RCC.

Catholicismin particular seems more like a cult.

There is an all powerful god and his #1 servant is the pop, the high priest.
There are priests who through a magic ritual are granted powers by god through the high priest.
Rituals and spectacles with clergy wearing costumes.
Ritual eating of the body and blood of the son of the god.
There are magic spells and incantations made by priests for good fortune, protection, and healing.
Followers are expected to contribute money to the cult.
The elite live in a walled castle aka the Vatican in spendor surrounded by art worth a lot of money with good food, housing, and medical care.
If you don't believe you incur the wrath of god.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Navy as a Cult: http://elephanticity.250x.com/cultcult.html

 

[Politesse]

Cult = an unpopular religion. Roman Catholicism is popular. But people who don't like it sometimes do call it a cult. Citation: Chick Tracts.

 

[steve_bank]

Cult = an unpopular religion. Roman Catholicism is popular. But people who don't like it sometimes do call it a cult. Citation: Chick Tracts.

I gew up Catholic and went to RCC schools.

Part of the indictrination is a subtle sense of being guilty of somethng.

As kids in grammar school we were marched into the church next door sitting in a dimly lit spce waiting to go to confession. Itvwas alwaus fearful, to the point you might want to make up something up to confess to.

Sins were categorized from veneal(trivial) to mortal(serious).

The priest gave you a number of prayers to recite for forgiveness, you knelt in front of the alter and prayed.

I reember when a kid forgot the Act Of Confession rcited at the end. We heard the booming voice of the priest echong in the churc 'You forgot!!!'.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Cult = an unpopular religion. Roman Catholicism is popular. But people who don't like it sometimes do call it a cult. Citation: Chick Tracts.

That's not the definition of a cult. The RCC does fit the definition of a cult.

 

[Politesse]

Cult = an unpopular religion. Roman Catholicism is popular. But people who don't like it sometimes do call it a cult. Citation: Chick Tracts.

That's not the definition of a cult. The RCC does fit the definition of a cult.

"Cult" is an pejorative descriptor, not some sort of technical term.

Merriam-Webster defines a cult as a "small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous." I think that's a pretty good summary of how the term is generally used. The case here, of arguably the largest religious organization in the world being described as a cult, is an obvious consequence of gradual semantic drift as attitudes toward hierarchical faiths have shifted from respectability to anti-authoritarian suspicion. No one can say whether Steve is right or wrong in this, his emotional bearings toward the Vatican are his own. I'm not feeling particularly chummy toward them either at the moment, so you won't find me arguing that they ought not be insulted or anything like that. But I do think the assignment of "cult" or "not cult" generally tends toward the arbitrary.

 

[Coleman Smith]

"The difference between a religion and a cult is real estate."

(Quote of unknown origin)

 

[steve_bank]

The RCC has global real estate.

In the 80s as a international business it was ranked around the top 10 corporations.

There have been several scandals with the Vatican bank, one involving organized crime.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I agree that the word "cult" has a negative connotation but all religions do begin as cults. However, the working definition of a cult minus the negative bias fits standard religious practice. The negativism associated with the word cult is likely the same as the negativism associated with the word heresy, and religions also begin as heresies until they gather enough heretics. The RCC is both heresy and cult in it's foundational beginnings. In practice there is no difference between religions and cult religions.

I think it is cultish to ritually eat your god's flesh and drink its blood as Catholics do but because the practice is so normailzed and sanitized it isn't appreciated for what it is.

 

[southernhybrid]

Some religions fit the definition of a cult. I think Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Scientology and probably some others that I don't know enough about are cults. Other branches of religion have some cult like properties, but they aren't true cults. They are cultish. I'm making this claim based on the link that Keith posted. I think we can probably included evangelical Christianity as a cult, for the most part, but most evangelicals don't disown their family members if they lose their believes, so again, perhaps cult like is a better description. Or maybe cult light.

 

[Politesse]

I agree that the word "cult" has a negative connotation but all religions do begin as cults. However, the working definition of a cult minus the negative bias fits standard religious practice. The negativism associated with the word cult is likely the same as the negativism associated with the word heresy, and religions also begin as heresies until they gather enough heretics. The RCC is both heresy and cult in it's foundational beginnings. In practice there is no difference between religions and cult religions.

For the most part, yes. The cultus of State and other forms of civil religion are different; they begin as a manifestation of purebred social legitimacy, and only accrue esoteric ritual and mystic elements over time. Take Keith's example. The Navy didn't begin as a "cult", but it accumulated increasingly obscure and authoritarian practices over time until such a listing seemed plausible. Because while we might not like to admit it, humans actually crave such contrivances, and they certainly make an organized body function more effectively.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Someone once said that the difference between a cult and a religion is that a cult has someone at the top who knows it's all fake. With a religion, that person has died.

 

[TheItinerantAtheist]

"The difference between a religion and a cult is real estate."

(Quote of unknown origin)

The FLDS had lots of real estate. Since their kids were taken by CPS, who were required to provide them special deconditioning care because they had been taught to be terrified of the color red and to be terrified of outsiders - there is a somewhat objective standard that their beliefs were considered dangerous.

 

[TheItinerantAtheist]

I agree that the word "cult" has a negative connotation but all religions do begin as cults. However, the working definition of a cult minus the negative bias fits standard religious practice. The negativism associated with the word cult is likely the same as the negativism associated with the word heresy, and religions also begin as heresies until they gather enough heretics. The RCC is both heresy and cult in it's foundational beginnings. In practice there is no difference between religions and cult religions.

For the most part, yes. The cultus of State and other forms of civil religion are different; they begin as a manifestation of purebred social legitimacy, and only accrue esoteric ritual and mystic elements over time. Take Keith's example. The Navy didn't begin as a "cult", but it accumulated increasingly obscure and authoritarian practices over time until such a listing seemed plausible. Because while we might not like to admit it, humans actually crave such contrivances, and they certainly make an organized body function more effectively.

I think the part of the meaning of cult that is most focused on is 'dangerous beliefs'. The word 'cult' gets attached to more standard and accepted religions by those people who detect 'dangerous beliefs' in those institutions, such as patriarchy, misogyny and bigotry. The size is less of a defining characteristic. The group of people which ritualize dangerous beliefs simply gets viewed as a 'large cult'.

I disagree that the contrivances of a cult make an organized body function more effectively. It seems that the achievement of culthood status is often a precursor to a moment of reckoning, and a an abrupt disorganizing or re-organizing of the community. One aspect of cults is the individual or small group that leads the cult. Too much power is concentrated in these individuals, and then the cult magnifies their flaws until the cult's imperfections draw too much attention to ignore at which point society intervenes to 'fix the problem'. This also raises an interesting point. One might argue that the 'cult' in the Catholic church is not the entire body of the church, but the small group who weilds the power and dogmatically follows the rituals.

Cults, though, typically come and go. When too many women get raped by members of the military, there's a call for reform, and the military has to give up some of its cultish ways as investigators crawl up their 'traditions' with a microscope. When there's a suspicion children are getting raped, the FLDS gets raided. When the Branch Davidians are rumored to be stockpiling weapons, there's a raid. Or, the cultists themselves take care of the problem themselves by 'drinking the Koolaid'. Cults often do themselves in, because while its own active members (not the ones who escape and complain) will often tolerate their 'dangerous beliefs', when those beliefs start impacting on the outside world in some way, the outside world, being bigger, reacts to eliminate the threat. If the Catholic Church were viewed as a cult, the cult is now undergoing some reorganization due to the pedophilia scandal as the outside world is forced to take notice and break through some of the veil of secrecy.

 

[steve_bank]

Aside from a texttbook definition of a cult, colloquially it invokes an image of mindless followers doungg the bidding of the leader. Absolute loyalty ad obedince.

Stalin, Hitler were personality cults. Trump represents a personality cult. , and Kim Jong Un in North Korea.

Some followers swoon at the thought of Jesus. To me Jesus is a personality cult. Devotees have a personal relationship with Jesus.

 

[TomC]

"Cult" is an pejorative descriptor, not some sort of technical term.

Cult is one of those many important words in this discussion that have little meaning, but lots of connotation.

From God to morality to Scripture to religion, the list of words that people take as having a clear meaning when they don't is endless.
Tom

 

[TheItinerantAtheist]

Aside from a texttbook definition of a cult, colloquially it invokes an image of mindless followers doungg the bidding of the leader. Absolute loyalty ad obedince.

Stalin, Hitler were personality cults. Trump represents a personality cult. , and Kim Jong Un in North Korea.

Some followers swoon at the thought of Jesus. To me Jesus is a personality cult. Devotees have a personal relationship with Jesus.

I agree with the concept of the Jesus cult, aka Christ cult, aka Christianity.

However, Christ is a manufactured persona, not the real historical person with that name. It the persona of all the things written about him, and all the things people say about him today. As he is a martyr, the true cult leaders, the 'influencers' inside of the cult of Christianity, are the true cult leaders.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

From God to morality to Scripture to religion, the list of words that people take as having a clear meaning when they don't is endless.

I don't think they ever consider what those words mean. It's how those words make them feel. Their "meaning" is an emotional response, not an intellectual examination.

 

[TomC]

From God to morality to Scripture to religion, the list of words that people take as having a clear meaning when they don't is endless.

I don't think they ever consider what those words mean. It's how those words make them feel. Their "meaning" is an emotional response, not an intellectual examination.

Who is "they"?

A huge part of the problem here is that nobody understands those words. Non-theists aren't any better at understanding the words than hard-core religionists.

It's a constant problem.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

From God to morality to Scripture to religion, the list of words that people take as having a clear meaning when they don't is endless.

I don't think they ever consider what those words mean. It's how those words make them feel. Their "meaning" is an emotional response, not an intellectual examination.

Who is "they"?

A huge part of the problem here is that nobody understands those words. Non-theists aren't any better at understanding the words than hard-core religionists.

It's a constant problem.
Tom

This is very much the case, yes. You'll note that whenever I weigh in on these sorts of things, I try to be rather clear about what I'm talking about, and even then have a hard time discussing it with people because even though I defined whatever-it-is, I still end up getting responses directed towards different definitions.