Reports of at Least 20 Victims Amid Active Shooting Incident in San Bernardino

[Nice Squirrel]

Ask any American gun nutter.

Why would you ask us "gun nutters"? The folks I know who have four or more guns don't see "the job" as one of mass murder of innocents. Ask the those in that line of work.

So if they don't see these killings as mass murder, what do the see them as?

 

[ImGod]

Why would you ask us "gun nutters"? The folks I know who have four or more guns don't see "the job" as one of mass murder of innocents. Ask the those in that line of work.

So if they don't see these killings as mass murder, what do the see them as?

Radical Muslim terrorism. It happened in Paris where guns are all but banned. Why wouldn't it happen here where Pipe bombs are banned?

 

[Rhea]

Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
Why have a hundred guns if the job only requires 4?

Ask any American gun nutter.

Why would you ask us "gun nutters"? The folks I know who have four or more guns don't see "the job" as one of mass murder of innocents. Ask the those in that line of work.

Max is right. I get why the gun nutters have dozens and hundreds of guns. I do not get why a jihadist would.
(I actually do understand the gun netters. I am related to several and close family probably owns a fleet of 300-400 weapons among a handful of owners. I don't agree with them, but I understand their reasons to the extent that I can accurately predict their actions and answers.)

However, I may have misinterpreted the San Bernadino stash. Further reveal suggests it was lots of ammo and only a few guns, and it was indeed with them. So that matched jihadi-psych after all.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

"Prosper" is a bit of a stretch, but regardless, how quickly immigrants will learn the new language enough to "prosper" will be impacted heavily by the overlap in the languages. Spanish speaking immigrants to the US are only having to learn a language with the same alphabet, where most words have the same roots, and where a sizable % of the people in their new country have at least some familiarity with their native language. None of those are true of Arabic speaking immigrants who not only have a different alphabet and different word roots, but the language is written and read in the opposite direction (right to left).

Being married to an immigrant I'll add one more big factor: Who they marry. Those that marry people who do not speak the immigrant's language almost always have far better English than those who marry people who do speak their language. Having a partner that you have to learn English to communicate with effectively is quite a driving force, and having such a partner is also a big help in learning. (And, yes, it's possible to fall in love with a substantial language barrier. When you're looking up words all the time communication is slow, it's not impossible.)

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What is crazy is they had a six month old infant. Almost a convergence of terrorism/workplace violence/suicide pact.

I think the plan for this was that of terrorism. Here is why: they had military gear, many pipe bombs in the home, and they brought with them a remote controlled car with a triple pipe bomb rolled into 1.

What I think happened is that something went wrong or differently than the longer term plan which had them do a shoot em up style reaction instead. Examples of possibilities: (1) got extremely angry at party so initiated the plan too soon and used guns to attack the targets instead of bombs; (2) brought the remote car to bomb the whole place but it failed to initiate; (3) suspected that they had been tracked down by agents and so had to hurry and do something; or (4) they were going to use the remote car next and then flee to the house; the pipe bombs were for throwing at police cars giving chase but the police dept was actually doing a drill nearby which completely reduced their plans.

I'm thinking the bombs were backup in case they were needed but they turned out not to be.

My thought is they shot the place up and then were going home to post video of their attack. They had bad luck and ran into a bunch of police. It's possible they became aware of the police and bailed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And the six month old baby. Why have a baby if you're planning to go out in a blaze of glory? I suppose there are reasons for this one.

It looks like he was recently radicalized. He probably wasn't planning an attack when the baby was conceived.

 

[Tigers!]

Looking as an outsider I will offer my 2 bob's worth
1. Guns seem too easy to get. I cannot understand why?
2. In general I am astounded at how you yanks seem to hate each other. Your 1st recourse, instead of your last, seems to be a gun. Ignoring incidents like San Bernardino where foreigners seem to be involved.

 

[Colonel Sanders]

Looking as an outsider I will offer my 2 bob's worth
1. Guns seem too easy to get. I cannot understand why?

It's a deeply embedded part of the culture. I don't really know how else to explain it. It's just the way it's always been. It doesn't help that our 2nd Amendment has been so stubbornly interpreted by conservative Supreme Courts. It is an unfortunate happenstance that when pertinent cases have come before SCOTUS that there has been a firm conservative majority. Call it bad luck or bad timing.

And the strange thing is that the vast majority, somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% want gun reform.

2. In general I am astounded at how you yanks seem to hate each other. Your 1st recourse, instead of your last, seems to be a gun. Ignoring incidents like San Bernardino where foreigners seem to be involved.

Believe it or not, despite the internet and media portrayal to the contrary, we don't hate each other on the scale that it appears. It's understandable how someone from another nation could see it that way, but of course sensationalism makes the headlines.

"Mary Johnson shares turkey sandwich with Lorraine Smith when Smith forgets to bring her lunch to work" isn't a very gripping headline.

I try to think of it like Facebook. There are these good people that I've known for 35 years, who if I didn't know otherwise would think they were monsters. Some of the shit they spout is jaw dropping. But I put that down to most people not really understanding on a level they should that there really are people on the other side of the screen. It's like the mind speaking without the social inhibition combined with an accurate understanding that those words are read by others.

Second, if our first recourse was to use a gun, the American population would be halved overnight. There are as many guns here as there are people.

 

[ImGod]

Looking as an outsider I will offer my 2 bob's worth
1. Guns seem too easy to get. I cannot understand why?
2. In general I am astounded at how you yanks seem to hate each other. Your 1st recourse, instead of your last, seems to be a gun. Ignoring incidents like San Bernardino where foreigners seem to be involved.

You watch the news and think thats the way it is. Buying a gun from a store or at most gun shows requires a federal background check. In California private sales require a background check.

We have a gang problem driven by drug prohibition similar to what happened during our alcohol prohibition phase. There are lots of gun suicides.

The rest of the country is actually safe and has violence levels on par or below most developed countries. Property crime and violent crimes not involving death tend to be low also. So no, we don't settle disputes with guns. Criminals settle their disputes with guns because they can't use the legal system.

I've not been able to find any correlation between volume and access to guns and gun crimes. Areas with easy access to guns and areas where guns are prohibited either have gun crime or don't. The correlation tends to be economic and drug route related rather than due to the inanimate object used in the crime.

Now that we're starting to add crazy religious to the mix, they'll probably buy more effective fully automatic guns smuggled through central america with drugs to keep them off the books.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Looking as an outsider I will offer my 2 bob's worth
1. Guns seem too easy to get. I cannot understand why?
2. In general I am astounded at how you yanks seem to hate each other. Your 1st recourse, instead of your last, seems to be a gun. Ignoring incidents like San Bernardino where foreigners seem to be involved.

The shooter was American.

 

[dismal]

Looking as an outsider I will offer my 2 bob's worth
1. Guns seem too easy to get. I cannot understand why?
2. In general I am astounded at how you yanks seem to hate each other. Your 1st recourse, instead of your last, seems to be a gun. Ignoring incidents like San Bernardino where foreigners seem to be involved.

The shooter was American.

Well, that explains why he would be enraged by the US occupation of his country (the US).

 

[ImGod]

The president wants this to be workplace violence. But it's not. It's a terrorist cell. Workplace violence would fit into his political push to use Executive Orders to curb gun rights. ISIS in the US looses his party political points and strengthens his opponents position on the Syrian refugee issue. In that, ISIS may infiltrate the US with the refugees.

His anger, frustration, sadness, thoughts, prayers...whatever are political mechanisms to use events to further his party's chances at winning elections.

He picked this one wrong. San Bernardino shooting: Attacker pledged allegiance to ISIS, officials say

 

[Tom Sawyer]

The president wants this to be workplace violence. But it's not. It's a terrorist cell. Workplace violence would fit into his political push to use Executive Orders to curb gun rights. ISIS in the US looses his party political points and strengthens his opponents position on the Syrian refugee issue. In that, ISIS may infiltrate the US with the refugees.

How does a US citizen committing an act of terror strengthen his opponents' position on the Syrian refugee issue? I get it from the irrational fear mongering point of view, but do you feel there's a way that his opponents' positions are actually legitimately strengthened?

 

[laughing dog]

The president wants this to be workplace violence. But it's not. It's a terrorist cell. Workplace violence would fit into his political push to use Executive Orders to curb gun rights. ISIS in the US looses his party political points and strengthens his opponents position on the Syrian refugee issue. In that, ISIS may infiltrate the US with the refugees.

His anger, frustration, sadness, thoughts, prayers...whatever are political mechanisms to use events to further his party's chances at winning elections.

He picked this one wrong. San Bernardino shooting: Attacker pledged allegiance to ISIS, officials say

While it is very likely the two are members of a terrorist cell, it is premature to conclude that this incident was purely an act of terror. Your very own link indicates it is possible it was a reaction to his workplace environment. I think it is too early to jump to conclusions about the motivation behind this horrendous act.

 

[KeepTalking]

The president wants this to be workplace violence.

I don't see how you can jump to this conclusion, given his statement: "It is possible that this is terrorist-related, but we don't know. It's also possible this was workplace-related."

But it's not. It's a terrorist cell.

It is most likely both terrorism, and workplace violence, as these two things are not mutually exclusive.

Workplace violence would fit into his political push to use Executive Orders to curb gun rights.

Workplace violence would also fit into the fact that he attacked his co-workers after leaving the office Christmas party and returning. It was likely something that occurred at that party that set him off prematurely.

ISIS in the US looses his party political points and strengthens his opponents position on the Syrian refugee issue. In that, ISIS may infiltrate the US with the refugees.

As others have noted, neither of the shooters was a Syrian refugee, and one was natural born US citizen.

His anger, frustration, sadness, thoughts, prayers...whatever are political mechanisms to use events to further his party's chances at winning elections.

That's kind of what politicians do, and there are numerous politicians from both sides of the political spectrum doing exactly the same thing.

He picked this one wrong. San Bernardino shooting: Attacker pledged allegiance to ISIS, officials say

That does not make either shooter a Syrian refugee. Remember, the refugees are the ones who are refusing to pledge allegiance to ISIS, and are, in fact, fleeing from ISIS.

 

[ImGod]

If you confuse rational thinking and politics your arguments make sense. These weren't Syrian refugees and they may have targeted his workplace because Karl's a dick and steals his food (or some other dumb reason).

You have a president one week removed from trying to tell people ISIS isn't coming with refugees and don't be afraid of women and children who's now standing up saying "wait and see" it could be workplace violence rather than terrorism. While pushing gun control as if this shooting is the same as any other shooting when it likely has more in common with the Boston Marathon bombing.

Here is a DHS "vetted" woman from the middle east who came here, armed herself, took up kitchen bomb making as a hobby, was part of a plot that shot and killed a bunch of people, and pledged allegiance to ISIS. Commiting the crime with a state government employee who I assume was screened at some point. Yet, the White House's position is it wouldn't happen with the people actually coming from ISIS controlled territory. It doesn't take a lot to convince voters that Obama's position is not sound.

We all like to say the left is great at loosing elections they should win. I have a feeling, a couple more of these types of events and Obama won't be standing next to many candidates in the next election cycle.

 

[ZiprHead]

It was reported that the gunman had a heated discussion on religion and politics with a Jewish co-worker the day before. The co-worker is one of the dead.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

If you confuse rational thinking and politics your arguments make sense. These weren't Syrian refugees and they may have targeted his workplace because Karl's a dick and steals his food (or some other dumb reason).

You have a president one week removed from trying to tell people ISIS isn't coming with refugees and don't be afraid of women and children who's now standing up saying "wait and see" it could be workplace violence rather than terrorism. While pushing gun control as if this shooting is the same as any other shooting when it likely has more in common with the Boston Marathon bombing.

Here is a DHS "vetted" woman from the middle east who came here, armed herself, took up kitchen bomb making as a hobby, was part of a plot that shot and killed a bunch of people, and pledged allegiance to ISIS. Commiting the crime with a state government employee who I assume was screened at some point. Yet, the White House's position is it wouldn't happen with the people actually coming from ISIS controlled territory. It doesn't take a lot to convince voters that Obama's position is not sound.

We all like to say the left is great at loosing elections they should win. I have a feeling, a couple more of these types of events and Obama won't be standing next to many candidates in the next election cycle.

What's important is that we prevent these type events, not who wins the next election.

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It was reported that the gunman had a heated discussion on religion and politics with a Jewish co-worker the day before. The co-worker is one of the dead.

Fuck, I have those discussions all the time.

 

[TSwizzle]

What's important is that we prevent these type events, {snip}

Which means if you see suspicious activity going on at your neighbors house, call it in. Apparently Syed's neighbors were suspicious of some of the things going on at his house and didn't say anything.

 

[repoman]

Not sure if discussed before, but the number of rounds and pipe bombs at their home makes me wonder if they were going to do another attack. Also I saw a report of several men going to their home in recent days (which was unusual for them?) but that may mean nothing.

Also, I wonder if he was planning an attack that was not at his job (but got angry for some reason and decided to attack his work) and would have been able to get away with it for long enough to be able to do another attack.

 

[PyramidHead]

If you confuse rational thinking and politics your arguments make sense. These weren't Syrian refugees and they may have targeted his workplace because Karl's a dick and steals his food (or some other dumb reason).

You have a president one week removed from trying to tell people ISIS isn't coming with refugees and don't be afraid of women and children who's now standing up saying "wait and see" it could be workplace violence rather than terrorism. While pushing gun control as if this shooting is the same as any other shooting when it likely has more in common with the Boston Marathon bombing.

Here is a DHS "vetted" woman from the middle east who came here, armed herself, took up kitchen bomb making as a hobby, was part of a plot that shot and killed a bunch of people, and pledged allegiance to ISIS. Commiting the crime with a state government employee who I assume was screened at some point. Yet, the White House's position is it wouldn't happen with the people actually coming from ISIS controlled territory. It doesn't take a lot to convince voters that Obama's position is not sound.

We all like to say the left is great at loosing elections they should win. I have a feeling, a couple more of these types of events and Obama won't be standing next to many candidates in the next election cycle.

The DHS is not the PreCrime division from Minority Report. People who are vetted and allowed into the country may one day turn out to be violent killers, even if they were polite and law-abiding when they immigrated. Nobody has any control over that, and it isn't a uniquely middle eastern problem. If this is an argument against allowing Syrian refugees into the US, it works for any country that has potentially violent people in it--in other words, any country.