Reports of at Least 20 Victims Amid Active Shooting Incident in San Bernardino

[ZiprHead]

Seems to me there's a central theme running through all this. The presence of guns.

The more central theme is the presence of crazy - or mental illness - or just the way nature works against the best intentions sometimes. Or perhaps humans are just living that legacy of aggression, fear, conquest, tribalism, you name it. It ain't good but it sure is there and isn't going to pretend itself away anytime soon. We're stuck with our rat brains.

I think, though, the problem isn't really weapons but how deadly guns are compared to things like knives, swords, clubs, spears or baseball bats. If the Sandy Hook shooter was using a machete instead of an assault rifle, he could have been more easily confronted and taken down. But that wouldn't mean we need to keep machetes out of people's homes either. Individual people want to defend themselves. It's as simple as that. We have to find a solution that doesn't disarm the innocent person. I know lots of people who have guns and NRA memberships. They're not criminals.

There's lot of crazy or mental illness around. Generally they are harmless, until they get guns.

 

[ksen]

Around 300 million guns in the US. Someone remind me how many times a 2nd amendmenteer stopped a mass shooting.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Which is legal, correct?

Apparently the transfer of guns was done legally.

Straw purchases are illegal (I don't know if Arizona is still lax about it). But even if murderers were not able to purchase guns themselves, there is no magic barrier to prevent straw purchases.

This is particularly big problem in Mexico where most (all?) gun sales are illegal. That doesn't stop a constant stream of legally purchased guns into Mexico from US.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Most of the guns in Mexico don't come from the US. The reported percentage was of those traced which included only those guns which were legal for sale in the US and thus could reasonably have come from the US.

 

[RavenSky]

Around 300 million guns in the US. Someone remind me how many times a 2nd amendmenteer stopped a mass shooting.

Ironically, on some "true crime" type show yesterday, there was a guy with a gun who may have stopped a mass shooting. The killer had already killed his ex-wife and a cop, and was pointing his gun at his son when the guy with a gun opened fire on the killer. The killer turned and started shooting at the guy with the gun.

Witnesses credit him with probably saving the boy and possibly buying enough time for the other cops to capture the killer. The killer survived (is in prison). The guy with the gun died at the scene. I'm not sure that's what the 2nd amendmenters have in mind, though.

 

[Roller]

Apparently the transfer of guns was done legally.

Straw purchases are illegal (I don't know if Arizona is still lax about it). But even if murderers were not able to purchase guns themselves, there is no magic barrier to prevent straw purchases.

This is particularly big problem in Mexico where most (all?) gun sales are illegal. That doesn't stop a constant stream of legally purchased guns into Mexico from US.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Most of the guns in Mexico don't come from the US. The reported percentage was of those traced which included only those guns which were legal for sale in the US and thus could reasonably have come from the US.

If this study is to be believed, some 250,000 guns purchased in US make it to Mexico yearly. That sounds crazy high to me.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/world/article24746863.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[whichphilosophy]

Isn't anyone going to blame Muslims?

Not all 1.8 billion were involved in this instance

 

[Roller]

Around 300 million guns in the US. Someone remind me how many times a 2nd amendmenteer stopped a mass shooting.

Not very often. Both Columbine and Virginia Tech had armed guards. I don't see how armed people are any sort of deterrent when attackers are ready to die. And knowing who is armed helps to shoot at those people first.

Here is one article with many links to more material:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/10/oregon-shooting-gun-laws-213222



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ford]

Around 300 million guns in the US. Someone remind me how many times a 2nd amendmenteer stopped a mass shooting.

Well there's the rub. The pro-gun folks will point out (correctly) that only a vanishingly small percentage of those 300 million guns are ever used in a mass shooting, therefore we can't burden the "responsible gun owners" with any further restrictions.

Yet while the number of Muslims who've carried out mass shootings currently stands at 3, we're supposedly perfectly justified in profiling Muslims, denying entry of refugees who happen to be Muslim, and generally acting like Muslims are the greatest threat to this country that has ever existed.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Around 300 million guns in the US. Someone remind me how many times a 2nd amendmenteer stopped a mass shooting.

Well there's the rub. The pro-gun folks will point out (correctly) that only a vanishingly small percentage of those 300 million guns are ever used in a mass shooting, therefore we can't burden the "responsible gun owners" with any further restrictions.

Yet while the number of Muslims who've carried out mass shootings currently stands at 3, we're supposedly perfectly justified in profiling Muslims, denying entry of refugees who happen to be Muslim, and generally acting like Muslims are the greatest threat to this country that has ever existed.

...also bombing them wholesale which doesn't in any way factor into radicalization.

 

[ronburgundy]

Good luck with that. It's not illegal to make your own. I'm going to put one together using an 80% lower and some hand tools. No serial number needed.

It damn well should be illegal to make guns anywhere without a license and without registering every gun made. Also, very few petty criminals have the skills or resources to make their own guns. So, cutting of the flow of guns from resales by legal gun purchasers would greatly reduce the # of guns in the hands of criminals.

Next thing you know people will be asking for government registration to exercise your 1st ammendment rights too. .

Unlike guns, speech is not inherently designed to kill as quickly and easily as possible. But don't let that stop your paranoid false equivalencies.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Here is a clip from ABC News back in 2010. It shows the difficulty of stopping a shooter. Never mind the issue of figuring out who are the good guys.

http://youtu.be/8QjZY3WiO9s


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Gun-grabber propaganda. They put an untrained person in about the worst possible scenario--of course he failed. That does not say one way or another about other scenarios.

Ahh using the term "Gun-grabbers". This term means that you are not engaged in rational discussion. I am kind of wondering what training you have had to handle an active shooter scenario. I have to go through it on a yearly basis.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Here is a clip from ABC News back in 2010. It shows the difficulty of stopping a shooter. Never mind the issue of figuring out who are the good guys.

http://youtu.be/8QjZY3WiO9s


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Gun-grabber propaganda. They put an untrained person in about the worst possible scenario...

Which is exactly the scenario what the gun-rights crowd have pointed to, AGAIN AND AGAIN, as the answer to all of our problems.

But he failed, exactly as reason and common sense suggests he would. This because contrary to the bravado of gun nuts, carrying a gun doesn't make you a badass, it doesn't magically turn you into Bruce Willis, instant action hero, just add bad guy. A skilled professional trained to handle himself in those kinds of stressful situations could indeed use a weapon to intercept and disable a shooter without making a bad situation worse. An untrained civilian in that same situation can only hope to get lucky.

Unless that civilian happens to be black. Then, of course, he is called "armed and dangerous."

 

[marc]

In a way the armed civilians approach was put to the test by a pro-gun group in Texas, and it failed. They recreated the Charlie Hebdo attack, but arming some of the civilians. In the multiple times they ran through scenarios, they still failed to stop the terrorists.

 

[iolo]

The American obsession with bang-bangs means people live in fear, all and every day, and the fantasy that it creates effective 'self-defence' implies that everyone has to be armed to the teeth, all and every day, or it can't possibly work - and God send I never have to take a class of armed infants! Poor dabs - you made a desperate mistake leaving this (at least relatively) sane Island to be 'free' of sanity over there.

 

[ImGod]

It damn well should be illegal to make guns anywhere without a license and without registering every gun made. Also, very few petty criminals have the skills or resources to make their own guns. So, cutting of the flow of guns from resales by legal gun purchasers would greatly reduce the # of guns in the hands of criminals.

Next thing you know people will be asking for government registration to exercise your 1st ammendment rights too. .

Unlike guns, speech is not inherently designed to kill as quickly and easily as possible. But don't let that stop your paranoid false equivalencies.

They put them one right after the other in the document. The fact you agree there is a 1st but don't want the 2nd is of no concern. Constitutional rights are not subject to your opinion or a first past the post vote. There is a method to change it that has been used in the past.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

A skilled professional trained to handle himself in those kinds of stressful situations could indeed use a weapon to intercept and disable a shooter without making a bad situation worse. An untrained civilian in that same situation can only hope to get lucky.

This is an important point and I would not argue against it. Obviously those who wrote our constitution believed the same thing. No doubt they assumed persons owning weapons would appreciate this aspect of ownership. It likely did not occur to them that someone would arm themselves if they were incapable of operating that weapon safely. It's no different than operating other items for which we require proficiency and licensing.

 

[George S]

The American obsession with bang-bangs means people live in fear, all and every day, and the fantasy that it creates effective 'self-defence' implies that everyone has to be armed to the teeth, all and every day, or it can't possibly work - and God send I never have to take a class of armed infants! Poor dabs - you made a desperate mistake leaving this (at least relatively) sane Island to be 'free' of sanity over there.

There are two philosophies at war in the good old USA today. One is epitomized by the self-sufficient small town. These people subscribe to old-school family values and just don't understand the city folk with their crime, and guns (even with so-called strict gun control), and single moms (whom they see themselves as supporting). They live in fear; fear of the day the money runs out (national debt and failing dollar) and the criminals and single moms with seven kids leaving the cities and invading the countryside.

The modern gun rights advocates want to be in a position to protect themselves with their own weaponry; they do not trust any level of police above the local sheriff to protect them. In fact, they fear the militarization of police, especially at the national level, and are often in the local sheriff's posse.

They will trot out

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/faildxprmt.pdf or
Senator David Leyonhjelm warns the US not to adopt Australia’s gun control laws
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-...es-us-from-adopting-stronger-gun-laws/6948656

In the illegal "immigrant" debate they take the position that these people are residents of another country taking an extended vacation here. Undocumented vacationers entitled to no benefits available to citizens. Not to be counted in any census. Welcome to vacation here, but their children born here are children of vacationers and have the citizenship of their parent's country.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

A skilled professional trained to handle himself in those kinds of stressful situations could indeed use a weapon to intercept and disable a shooter without making a bad situation worse. An untrained civilian in that same situation can only hope to get lucky.

This is an important point and I would not argue against it. Obviously those who wrote our constitution believed the same thing. No doubt they assumed persons owning weapons would appreciate this aspect of ownership. It likely did not occur to them that someone would arm themselves if they were incapable of operating that weapon safely. It's no different than operating other items for which we require proficiency and licensing.

Huh. It's almost like the tenets of a frontier-based philosophy from hundreds of years ago doesn't apply exactly to modern society.

 

[ZiprHead]

The American obsession with bang-bangs means people live in fear, all and every day, and the fantasy that it creates effective 'self-defence' implies that everyone has to be armed to the teeth, all and every day, or it can't possibly work - and God send I never have to take a class of armed infants! Poor dabs - you made a desperate mistake leaving this (at least relatively) sane Island to be 'free' of sanity over there.

An Ordinary American Family Christmas Photo

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11556798

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The American obsession with bang-bangs means people live in fear, all and every day, and the fantasy that it creates effective 'self-defence' implies that everyone has to be armed to the teeth, all and every day, or it can't possibly work - and God send I never have to take a class of armed infants! Poor dabs - you made a desperate mistake leaving this (at least relatively) sane Island to be 'free' of sanity over there.

An Ordinary American Family Christmas Photo

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11556798

The people on the right don't need their firearms. Those on the left couldn't outrun a box turtle with a hernia, and are likely intimidated by same. So maybe we can cut them some slack.