• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

“Revolution in Thought: A new look at determinism and free will"



Light at the eye/instant vision is not logical.
It actually is. If you read and reread what he wrote, you would have understood more thoroughly why he was so confident in his claim. He did not say light impulses don't do what they do. They do everything science states, from entering the retina to the optic nerve to being transduced into impulses that the brain receives. What does not occur is the brain's ability to turn these impulses into images. Light does not bounce off of objects taking the information with it through space/time. This is an assumption on the part of science, which Lessans refutes. As far as being logical, it's just as logical as any other version of sight.

That's what doesn't make sense. Light does in fact convey information. The brain as an information processor does in fact generate consciousness based on information acquired by the senses that is integrated with memory function to enable recognition.
 


Light at the eye/instant vision is not logical.
It actually is. If you read and reread what he wrote, you would have understood more thoroughly why he was so confident in his claim. He did not say light impulses don't do what they do. They do everything science states, from entering the retina to the optic nerve to being transduced into impulses that the brain receives. What does not occur is the brain's ability to turn these impulses into images. Light does not bounce off of objects taking the information with it through space/time. This is an assumption on the part of science, which Lessans refutes. As far as being logical, it's just as logical as any other version of sight.

That's what doesn't make sense. Light does in fact convey information. The brain as an information processor does in fact generate consciousness based on information acquired by the senses that is integrated with memory function to enable recognition.
The brain IS an information processor but this does not explain how we see. Memory is also an integral and essential part of how information is retained and used to connect what is learned in everyday life in order to make sense of the world. Without memory nothing would make sense because there would be no way to categorize our experiences to be used for later reference. Consciousness is a prerequisite for life itself. Without consciousness, we would be unaware of our very existence or who we are as individuals.
 

They eye interacting with the brain is how we see. The precise and well-understood process has been explained to you many times.
Pood, explaining the process many times does not PROVE the process is correct. It’s an idea, not proof.
 
This is an emotional for me. It’s my birthday today, the year my father died. I am not asking for sympathy I’m just letting people to know to show they have a heart. I hope I’m making my father proud not because he was my daddy, as Pood tried to use to discredit him, but because I am trying to carry the ball to the best of my ability.
 
Last edited:
The brain IS an information processor but this does not explain how we see.

They eye interacting with the brain is how we see. The precise and well-understood process has been explained to you many times.
Pood, explaining the process many times does not PROVE the process is correct. It’s an idea, not proof.
No, the proof is that we have *entirely reverse engineered the system*.

I'm not sure you understand this, but successful reverse engineering to an executed, functional system is 100% a proof of a theory of operation.

The alternative outcome of an RE is a "cargo cult result", where the apparent operations are merely performative rather than functional and effective.

Also, to remove quote tags in a response that are empty, go to the top of the empty quote and add a line break. This will add a space above the quote. Put a period "." there. Go back to the empty quote and backspace. Delete the period. Go to the top of the top quote. Backspace again to eliminate the original line break. This will delete the quote tags by deleting through them rather than attempting to delete over them.
 

They eye interacting with the brain is how we see. The precise and well-understood process has been explained to you many times.
Pood, explaining the process many times does not PROVE the process is correct. It’s an idea, not proof.
No, the proof is that we have *entirely reverse engineered the system*.

I'm not sure you understand this, but successful reverse engineering to an executed, functional system is 100% a proof of a theory of operation.

The alternative outcome of an RE is a "cargo cult result", where the apparent operations are merely performative rather than functional and effective.
What? I can’t even begin to decode your response. Sorry. It’s my birthday and you won’t ruin it no matter hope right you think you are.
 
The brain IS an information processor but this does not explain how we see.

They eye interacting with the brain is how we see. The precise and well-understood process has been explained to you many times.
Pood, explaining the process many times does not PROVE the process is correct. It’s an idea, not proof.
No, the proof is that we have *entirely reverse engineered the system*.

I'm not sure you understand this, but successful reverse engineering to an executed, functional system is 100% a proof of a theory of operation.

The alternative outcome of an RE is a "cargo cult result", where the apparent operations are merely performative rather than functional and effective.
What? I can’t even begin to decode your response. Sorry. It’s my birthday and you won’t ruin it no matter hope right you think you are.
Seriously, go watch Paycheck or something. Just the first few scenes of the movie will deliver the idea even into the thickest of skulls what reverse engineering is.

The just visit
 cargo cult to see what it looks like when someone fucks it up.

(TLDR: people tried to reverse engineer the causes of ships landing and delivering cargo *by replicating the exact actions and structures of all visible players on the port*. They mistook the theory of operation of a port to not include the *economic ties* and *communication systems* that drive the decision-making of where to make port)

The cargo cult article should make it apparent what the fundamental failure there is, and why RE'ing is readily apparent in its success or failure, but I explained it above.
 
The brain IS an information processor but this does not explain how we see.

They eye interacting with the brain is how we see. The precise and well-understood process has been explained to you many times.
Pood, explaining the process many times does not PROVE the process is correct. It’s an idea, not proof.
No, the proof is that we have *entirely reverse engineered the system*.
Obviously something is amiss!
I'm not sure you understand this, but successful reverse engineering to an executed, functional system is 100% a proof of a theory of operation.

The alternative outcome of an RE is a "cargo cult result", where the apparent operations are merely performative rather than functional and effective.
What? I can’t even begin to decode your response. Sorry. It’s my birthday and you won’t ruin it no matter hope right you think you are.
Seriously, go watch Paycheck or something. Just the first few scenes of the movie will deliver the idea even into the thickest of skulls what reverse engineering is.
I don’t need to do that. All I need to do is prove that this account cannot be awash ax you seem to think.
The just visit
 cargo cult to see what it looks like when someone fucks it up.

(TLDR: people tried to reverse engineer the causes of ships landing and delivering cargo *by replicating the exact actions and structures of all visible players on the port*. They mistook the theory of operation of a port to not include the *economic ties* and *communication systems* that drive the decision-making of where to make port)

The cargo cult article should make it apparent what the fundamental failure there is, and why RE'ing is readily apparent in its success or failure, but I explained it above.
Sorry, but did not explain anything other than the present theory which is not proof!
 
The brain IS an information processor but this does not explain how we see.

They eye interacting with the brain is how we see. The precise and well-understood process has been explained to you many times.
Pood, explaining the process many times does not PROVE the process is correct. It’s an idea, not proof.
No, the proof is that we have *entirely reverse engineered the system*.
Obviously something is amiss!
I'm not sure you understand this, but successful reverse engineering to an executed, functional system is 100% a proof of a theory of operation.

The alternative outcome of an RE is a "cargo cult result", where the apparent operations are merely performative rather than functional and effective.
What? I can’t even begin to decode your response. Sorry. It’s my birthday and you won’t ruin it no matter hope right you think you are.
Seriously, go watch Paycheck or something. Just the first few scenes of the movie will deliver the idea even into the thickest of skulls what reverse engineering is.
I don’t need to do that. All I need to do is prove that this account cannot be awash ax you seem to think.
The just visit
 cargo cult to see what it looks like when someone fucks it up.

(TLDR: people tried to reverse engineer the causes of ships landing and delivering cargo *by replicating the exact actions and structures of all visible players on the port*. They mistook the theory of operation of a port to not include the *economic ties* and *communication systems* that drive the decision-making of where to make port)
Please explain where this proves seeing in real time wrong. I’m asking you to stop using big words and big explanations that can be answered more simply.
The cargo cult article should make it apparent what the fundamental failure there is, and why RE'ing is readily apparent in its success or failure, but I explained it above.
Sorry, but did not explain anything other than the present theory which is not proof!
 

They eye interacting with the brain is how we see. The precise and well-understood process has been explained to you many times.
Pood, explaining the process many times does not PROVE the process is correct. It’s an idea, not proof.
Of course it proves the process is correct. The process has been observed, studied, and reverse-engineered. How we see is fully understood.
 
The brain IS an information processor but this does not explain how we see.

They eye interacting with the brain is how we see. The precise and well-understood process has been explained to you many times.
Pood, explaining the process many times does not PROVE the process is correct. It’s an idea, not proof.
No, the proof is that we have *entirely reverse engineered the system*.
Obviously something is amiss!

Oh, obviously! And why is it obvious? Because your writer does not agree with the facts of how we see. Therefore, something is obviously amiss — not with what he wrote, but with the truth! :rolleyes:
Sorry, but did not explain anything other than the present theory which is not proof!

How we see is not a theory, it is established fact.
 
The brain IS an information processor but this does not explain how we see.

They eye interacting with the brain is how we see. The precise and well-understood process has been explained to you many times.
Pood, explaining the process many times does not PROVE the process is correct. It’s an idea, not proof.
No, the proof is that we have *entirely reverse engineered the system*.
Obviously something is amiss!

Oh, obviously! And why is it obvious? Because your writer does not agree with the facts of how we see. Therefore, something is obviously amiss — not with what he wrote, but with the truth! :rolleyes:
Sorry, but did not explain anything other than the present theory which is not proof!

How we see is not a theory, it is established fact.

If we are confident of the theory of operation of each piece, we can replace parts built on those principles while maintaining function, and we have done so. This does, I am sorry to say to the "science doesn't deal in proofs" crowd. Success of replicated action is self evident, and while it's technically true, science plus engineering DOES deal in "proof".

The fact of the camera is proof. The fact of the eye implant is proof. The fact of the ability to decode image data out of the optic nerve is proof.
 
I have said science deals in probability proof or proof beyond reasonable doubt, but not proof beyond any doubt whatsoever. We could all be deceived — Descarte’s demon, brains in vats, matrix, simulations, etc.
 
This is an emotional for me. It’s my birthday today, the year my father died. I am not asking for sympathy I’m just letting people to know to show they have a heart. I hope I’m making my father proud not because he was my daddy, as Pood tried to use to discredit him, but because I am trying to carry the ball to the best of my ability.
I would advise getting off the internet, at least for today.
 
The brain IS an information processor but this does not explain how we see.

They eye interacting with the brain is how we see. The precise and well-understood process has been explained to you many times.
Pood, explaining the process many times does not PROVE the process is correct. It’s an idea, not proof.
No, the proof is that we have *entirely reverse engineered the system*.
Obviously something is amiss!
I'm not sure you understand this, but successful reverse engineering to an executed, functional system is 100% a proof of a theory of operation.

The alternative outcome of an RE is a "cargo cult result", where the apparent operations are merely performative rather than functional and effective.
What? I can’t even begin to decode your response. Sorry. It’s my birthday and you won’t ruin it no matter hope right you think you are.
Seriously, go watch Paycheck or something. Just the first few scenes of the movie will deliver the idea even into the thickest of skulls what reverse engineering is.
I don’t need to do that. All I need to do is prove that this account cannot be awash ax you seem to think.
The just visit
 cargo cult to see what it looks like when someone fucks it up.

(TLDR: people tried to reverse engineer the causes of ships landing and delivering cargo *by replicating the exact actions and structures of all visible players on the port*. They mistook the theory of operation of a port to not include the *economic ties* and *communication systems* that drive the decision-making of where to make port)
Please explain where this proves seeing in real time wrong. I’m asking you to stop using big words and big explanations that can be answered more simply
The cargo cult article should make it apparent what the fundamental failure there is, and why RE'ing is readily apparent in its success or failure, but I explained it above.
Sorry, but did not explain anything other than the present theory which is not proof!

This is an emotional for me. It’s my birthday today, the year my father died. I am not asking for sympathy I’m just letting people to know to show they have a heart. I hope I’m making my father proud not because he was my daddy, as Pood tried to use to discredit him, but because I am trying to carry the ball to the best of my ability.
I would advise getting off the internet, at least for today.
I’ll be seeing my family later! My children and all 14 grandkids! 🙏
 

They eye interacting with the brain is how we see. The precise and well-understood process has been explained to you many times.
Pood, explaining the process many times does not PROVE the process is correct. It’s an idea, not proof.
Of course it proves the process is correct. The process has been observed, studied, and reverse-engineered. How we see is fully understood.
Reverse engineering may show that light travels and strikes the retina, but it cannot show that the light bounces off an object, taking the information with it through space/time. They cannot prove this.
 
Reverse engineering may show that light travels and strikes the retina, but it cannot show that the light bounces off an object, taking the information with it through space/time. They cannot prove this.

:unsure: You are seriously saying that we can’t prove that light is reflected off of objects??? OMFG there are about a million ways to prove it. You can easily prove it yourself with a flashlight!
 
The brain IS an information processor but this does not explain how we see.

They eye interacting with the brain is how we see. The precise and well-understood process has been explained to you many times.
Pood, explaining the process many times does not PROVE the process is correct. It’s an idea, not proof.
No, the proof is that we have *entirely reverse engineered the system*.
Obviously something is amiss!

Oh, obviously! And why is it obvious? Because your writer does not agree with the facts of how we see. Therefore, something is obviously amiss — not with what he wrote, but with the truth! :rolleyes:
Sorry, but did not explain anything other than the present theory which is not proof!

How we see is not a theory, it is established fact.

If we are confident of the theory of operation of each piece, we can replace parts built on those principles while maintaining function, and we have done so. This does, I am sorry to say to the "science doesn't deal in proofs" crowd. Success of replicated action is self evident, and while it's technically true, science plus engineering DOES deal in "proof".

The fact of the camera is proof. The fact of the eye implant is proof. The fact of the ability to decode image data out of the optic nerve is proof.
A camera doesn't prove that we see in delayed time. It works like the eye, no different. An eye implant has not shown that we see the external world from implanted electrodes. A child can hear when the implant is turned on, why not with an eye implant? This hasn't been shown with the eyes. Seeing shadows of light and dark doesn't prove that these images are coming from the environment. Decoding image data out of the optic nerve does not prove that this decoding is equivalent to true sight either. It is possible that through this decoding, the brain is able to use this data to see the real world as it is, not as a virtual image. It's not proof beyond a reasonable doubt, or any doubt for that matter, but it is understandable why people would think it is. This is what the author was up against.
 
Back
Top Bottom