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“Revolution in Thought: A new look at determinism and free will"

Pg


In your new word who decides how resources globally and locally get consumed, what gets produced and how much of each thing gets produced?

Who decides how much each person gets? Does each person get a car? Does everybody get a house or an apartment?

Who gets to live in North Dakota and who gets to live by the beach in California?

Who decides who does what?
This is not socialism. No one decides who gets what. People get to choose where they want to live, but there is a caveat to this. You will see how this transition will take place without hurting a single soul.
Can you answer how his works in your new world?
I can only post certain excerpts that will give you some idea. I cannot post the whole book and explaining this in my own words will only cause confusion, and I'm not willing to do that.
Yo0ui say there will be no government as we know it. Ok, how does it work and stay stable?

Is there a democratic voting system of some kind?
There will be no political system, but there will be people whose job is to do the hard work of research and development. People will want to do what is best for their country because there will be nothing to stop them from hurting their country if they want to. But how can they want to when they are given complete freedom to do whatever they want (IOW, no one Big Brother will be watching), and at the same time, they will be protected from falling below their standard of living if they cannot meet their expenses. This is all explained in much more depth, but remember, this is only a blueprint of this new world. It would take thousands of pages to enumerate all of the changes that will occur in one book. This is why scientists will need to take over where Lessans left off.
Like I said all you and others like you offer are slogans and cliches.
Where are the slogans and cliches? I'm answering your questions, but you can't expect me to post an entire chapter. He basically gives an entire blueprint of how this can actually take place.
 
You made the claim, so it's your burden to prove. Where is this well-established science? It shouldn't be hard for you to find.

You made the claim that we see in real time, so it is your burden to prove it.
Part of that proof is why dogs and other animals cannot recognize like humans do. You have not shown this to be wrong. I asked anyone to come forward with an experiment that shows that this can occur. I also gave quite a few videos that showed that dogs cannot do this, even when they are right in front of their master, but haven't seen them in a while. They need their sense of smell.
The evidence that many birds, including crows, ravens and pigeons, and perhaps all birds, recognize individual humans, is overwhelming.

Bees recognize individual humans, too.

Of course dogs recognize individual humans by sight alone too. Sorry if that challenges your precious (and idiotic) world view.
This makes me wonder if I'm on the same planet as you. :rofl:I don't know what it's going to take to wake you up!

 
Here in Seattle pigeons and sea gulls are everywhere. No natural predators. Pigeons eat and crap all over. Sea gulls are nasty flying rats.
:sadcheer:

Seagulls, really just gulls, are not nasty flying rats. They are beautiful creatures. I believe it was Dawkins who stated that they are so well designed for flight that it could almost make him believe in a designer.

Gulls, who eat worms, are so smart that they have figured out how do a collective dance on sunny days that sounds like the patter of rain. This makes the worms come out, whom they then eat.

Pigeons are beautiful. They have five cones so they see tens of millions of colors that humans don’t. They are very intelligent, and recognize individual humans. Several years ago, I had a pigeon friend, Brownie, with whom I shared roast chicken on a park bench. He let me pet him and so have other pigeons.

Pigeons and gulls in cities absolutely do have predators: falcons, hawks, owls, racoons, cats, among others. I have seen a falcon in a park grab a pigeon and fly away with it.

Gills are flying rats. They steal from each other. Crap all over.

In Washington state, it is illegal to feed seagulls in all state park areas and in various cities where local ordinances prohibit the practice. While there is no universal statewide ban specifically for seagulls, new 2025 regulations from the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
(WDFW) make it illegal to feed any wildlife if doing so causes deer, elk, or moose to congregate.
Enforcement: Penalties for seagull-feeding offenses can range from small fines to civil penalties of up to $750 depending on the severity and local code.

Environmental and Health Impact

Disease Spread: Feeding encourages gulls to crowd together, which promotes the spread of diseases among birds and potentially to humans.
Public Nuisance: Large congregations of fed gulls can cause defacement and deterioration of public and private property through droppings and litter.

Seagulls are highly opportunistic, omnivorous feeders that eat a wide range of foods, including fish, marine invertebrates (crabs, mussels), insects, eggs, rodents, and refuse. Their diets vary by location, shifting from natural marine prey to scavenging human trash, fast food, and agricultural waste.\

I watched them drop shellfish on rocks to crack the shell. When one gets food in the beak others chase it to take it away.

I watched gulls line up with diving birds and try to go underwater with them.

Observational Learning: Studies show that seagulls watch what people are eating and target those specific items. They are more likely to approach food if they see a human interacting with it first.
Recognizing People: Gulls can remember faces, particularly those of people who have fed them or, conversely, those who have acted aggressively towards them.
Sorry pood, you are just a meal ticket.

Crows can remember faces. I watched a University Washington study on it out on the open. If you piss off crows they will remember you. A guy wore a mask and harassed crows. When he waked past without it no reaction, reacted to the mask. It appeared it could be communicated to other crows.

Pigeons were once trained to spot international orange for open water aircraft search. They would peck on a device to indicate direction.

Pigeons were indeed used in aerial water searches, most notably in a U.S. Coast Guard program called
Project Sea Hunt during the late 1970s and early 1980s. In this program, trained pigeons were used as "pigeon-powered sensors" to spot survivors, life rafts, and debris in the open ocean.
 
Here in Seattle pigeons and sea gulls are everywhere. No natural predators. Pigeons eat and crap all over. Sea gulls are nasty flying rats.
:sadcheer:

Seagulls, really just gulls, are not nasty flying rats. They are beautiful creatures. I believe it was Dawkins who stated that they are so well designed for flight that it could almost make him believe in a designer.

Gulls, who eat worms, are so smart that they have figured out how do a collective dance on sunny days that sounds like the patter of rain. This makes the worms come out, whom they then eat.

Pigeons are beautiful. They have five cones so they see tens of millions of colors that humans don’t. They are very intelligent, and recognize individual humans. Several years ago, I had a pigeon friend, Brownie, with whom I shared roast chicken on a park bench. He let me pet him and so have other pigeons.

Pigeons and gulls in cities absolutely do have predators: falcons, hawks, owls, racoons, cats, among others. I have seen a falcon in a park grab a pigeon and fly away with it.

Gills are flying rats. They steal from each other. Crap all over.

In Washington state, it is illegal to feed seagulls in all state park areas and in various cities where local ordinances prohibit the practice. While there is no universal statewide ban specifically for seagulls, new 2025 regulations from the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
(WDFW) make it illegal to feed any wildlife if doing so causes deer, elk, or moose to congregate.
Enforcement: Penalties for seagull-feeding offenses can range from small fines to civil penalties of up to $750 depending on the severity and local code.

Environmental and Health Impact

Disease Spread: Feeding encourages gulls to crowd together, which promotes the spread of diseases among birds and potentially to humans.
Public Nuisance: Large congregations of fed gulls can cause defacement and deterioration of public and private property through droppings and litter.

Seagulls are highly opportunistic, omnivorous feeders that eat a wide range of foods, including fish, marine invertebrates (crabs, mussels), insects, eggs, rodents, and refuse. Their diets vary by location, shifting from natural marine prey to scavenging human trash, fast food, and agricultural waste.\

I watched them drop shellfish on rocks to crack the shell. When one gets food in the beak others chase it to take it away.

I watched gulls line up with diving birds and try to go underwater with them.

Observational Learning: Studies show that seagulls watch what people are eating and target those specific items. They are more likely to approach food if they see a human interacting with it first.
Recognizing People: Gulls can remember faces, particularly those of people who have fed them or, conversely, those who have acted aggressively towards them.
Sorry pood, you are just a meal ticket.

Crows can remember faces. I watched a University Washington study on it out on the open. If you piss off crows they will remember you. A guy wore a mask and harassed crows. When he waked past without it no reaction, reacted to the mask. It appeared it could be communicated to other crows.

Pigeons were once trained to spot international orange for open water aircraft search. They would peck on a device to indicate direction.

Pigeons were indeed used in aerial water searches, most notably in a U.S. Coast Guard program called
Project Sea Hunt during the late 1970s and early 1980s. In this program, trained pigeons were used as "pigeon-powered sensors" to spot survivors, life rafts, and debris in the open ocean.
These birds definitely have amazing skills, but they cannot recognize faces in a lineup (as far as I can tell) without other cues to help them. They may associate a mask with aggression if they were hurt by someone wearing one (that's no surprise), but this does not prove that the eyes are a sense organ.
 
Pg


In your new word who decides how resources globally and locally get consumed, what gets produced and how much of each thing gets produced?

Who decides how much each person gets? Does each person get a car? Does everybody get a house or an apartment?

Who gets to live in North Dakota and who gets to live by the beach in California?

Who decides who does what?
This is not socialism. No one decides who gets what. People get to choose where they want to live, but there is a caveat to this. You will see how this transition will take place without hurting a single soul.
Can you answer how his works in your new world?
I can only post certain excerpts that will give you some idea. I cannot post the whole book and explaining this in my own words will only cause confusion, and I'm not willing to do that.
Yo0ui say there will be no government as we know it. Ok, how does it work and stay stable?

Is there a democratic voting system of some kind?
There will be no political system, but there will be people whose job is to do the hard work of research and development. People will want to do what is best for their country because there will be nothing to stop them from hurting their country if they want to. But how can they want to when they are given complete freedom to do whatever they want (IOW, no one Big Brother will be watching), and at the same time, they will be protected from falling below their standard of living if they cannot meet their expenses. This is all explained in much more depth, but remember, this is only a blueprint of this new world. It would take thousands of pages to enumerate all of the changes that will occur in one book. This is why scientists will need to take over where Lessans left off.
Like I said all you and others like you offer are slogans and cliches.
Where are the slogans and cliches? I'm answering your questions, but you can't expect me to post an entire chapter. He basically gives an entire blueprint of how this can actually take place.
'When All Believe In Determinism There Will Be Global Peace' is a slogan/cliche. Propaganda.

'When we realize free will does not exist crime and war will go away'.

You provide no details as to how it will be accomplished other than gross generalizations.

A politician cap-aigning may say 'I am going to lower incidence costs!'. When asked how he will make a few general statements and pivot to another topic. Standard politics.
 
Pg


In your new word who decides how resources globally and locally get consumed, what gets produced and how much of each thing gets produced?

Who decides how much each person gets? Does each person get a car? Does everybody get a house or an apartment?

Who gets to live in North Dakota and who gets to live by the beach in California?

Who decides who does what?
This is not socialism. No one decides who gets what. People get to choose where they want to live, but there is a caveat to this. You will see how this transition will take place without hurting a single soul.
Can you answer how his works in your new world?
I can only post certain excerpts that will give you some idea. I cannot post the whole book and explaining this in my own words will only cause confusion, and I'm not willing to do that.
Yo0ui say there will be no government as we know it. Ok, how does it work and stay stable?

Is there a democratic voting system of some kind?
There will be no political system, but there will be people whose job is to do the hard work of research and development. People will want to do what is best for their country because there will be nothing to stop them from hurting their country if they want to. But how can they want to when they are given complete freedom to do whatever they want (IOW, no one Big Brother will be watching), and at the same time, they will be protected from falling below their standard of living if they cannot meet their expenses. This is all explained in much more depth, but remember, this is only a blueprint of this new world. It would take thousands of pages to enumerate all of the changes that will occur in one book. This is why scientists will need to take over where Lessans left off.
Like I said all you and others like you offer are slogans and cliches.
Where are the slogans and cliches? I'm answering your questions, but you can't expect me to post an entire chapter. He basically gives an entire blueprint of how this can actually take place.
'When All Believe In Determinism There Will Be Global Peace' is a slogan/cliche. Propaganda.

'When we realize free will does not exist crime and war will go away'.

You provide no details as to how it will be accomplished other than gross generalizations.
First of all, you didn't ask. Second of all, I am not going to post the entire chapter (it's too long, but I'll post a few paragraphs.
A politician cap-aigning may say 'I am going to lower incidence costs!'. When asked how he will make a few general statements and pivot to another topic. Standard politics.
First, do you understand anything I posted regarding the first three chapters? Do you understand that if man's will is not free, the corollary must be: Thou Shall Not Blame. This IS the basis for his discovery, and it is absolutely amazing what happens when everyone knows IN ADVANCE that if they should hurt someone with a first blow (not a retaliatory blow), they will not be blamed or punished, because everyone knows that they couldn't help themselves since their will is not free, therefore, if they decide to hurt someone WITH A FIRST BLOW (an unprovoked blow), they will already know no one in the entire world is going to blame or punish them. But (here is the other side of this equation) they haven't hurt anyone yet; it is still under consideration, and when it fully dawns on them that the whole world must excuse them for doing what they cannot justify (remember, we are talking about first blows, not retaliatory blows, which are justified), they are compelled to relinquish this desire to strike because it can give them no satisfaction under the changed conditions. I need to know if you understand this, or it will be a waste for me to continue. Determinism is not a slogan or a gross generalization, but certain things must take place in the environment for this principle to work. You are making assumptions that this can't work without even showing any real curiosity as to how he completes his blueprint. This knowledge is for everyone's benefit, not just mine.
 
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Do you understand that if man's will is not free, the corollary must be: Thou Shall Not Blame.
But it's not though, is it?

People are quite capable of blaming, even when the target of that blame is inanimate, and free will isn't even a possibility.



And frankly, you can't really blame them for that.
 
it is absolutely amazing what happens when everyone knows IN ADVANCE that if they should hurt someone with a first blow (not a retaliatory blow), they will not be blamed or punished, because everyone knows that they couldn't help themselves since their will is not free. The world knows they could not have acted otherwise. But they haven't hurt anyone yet; this is still under consideration, and when it dawns on them that the whole world must excuse them for doing what cannot be justified, they are compelled to relinquish this desire to strike because it can give them no satisfaction to do so under the changed conditions.
See, that's bollocks, too. The premise that this depends upon entirely, is that people act only after consideration of the consequences of their actions.

That this is laughably false should be obvious to anybody.
 
Here in Seattle pigeons and sea gulls are everywhere. No natural predators. Pigeons eat and crap all over. Sea gulls are nasty flying rats.
:sadcheer:

Seagulls, really just gulls, are not nasty flying rats. They are beautiful creatures. I believe it was Dawkins who stated that they are so well designed for flight that it could almost make him believe in a designer.

Gulls, who eat worms, are so smart that they have figured out how do a collective dance on sunny days that sounds like the patter of rain. This makes the worms come out, whom they then eat.

Pigeons are beautiful. They have five cones so they see tens of millions of colors that humans don’t. They are very intelligent, and recognize individual humans. Several years ago, I had a pigeon friend, Brownie, with whom I shared roast chicken on a park bench. He let me pet him and so have other pigeons.

Pigeons and gulls in cities absolutely do have predators: falcons, hawks, owls, racoons, cats, among others. I have seen a falcon in a park grab a pigeon and fly away with it.

Gills are flying rats. They steal from each other. Crap all over.

Pretty much the same as humans, except for our lack of wings. The current imbecile in chief in the White House is stealing from all of us, and it has been widely reported that he craps his pants.
In Washington state, it is illegal to feed seagulls in all state park areas and in various cities where local ordinances prohibit the practice. While there is no universal statewide ban specifically for seagulls, new 2025 regulations from the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
(WDFW) make it illegal to feed any wildlife if doing so causes deer, elk, or moose to congregate.
Enforcement: Penalties for seagull-feeding offenses can range from small fines to civil penalties of up to $750 depending on the severity and local code.

Environmental and Health Impact

Disease Spread: Feeding encourages gulls to crowd together, which promotes the spread of diseases among birds and potentially to humans.
Public Nuisance: Large congregations of fed gulls can cause defacement and deterioration of public and private property through droppings and litter.

Seagulls are highly opportunistic, omnivorous feeders that eat a wide range of foods, including fish, marine invertebrates (crabs, mussels), insects, eggs, rodents, and refuse. Their diets vary by location, shifting from natural marine prey to scavenging human trash, fast food, and agricultural waste.\

I watched them drop shellfish on rocks to crack the shell. When one gets food in the beak others chase it to take it away.

I watched gulls line up with diving birds and try to go underwater with them.

Yeah. And?

During the 2020 Covid crisis here in NYC, when everything was in lockdown, I often went out to Coney Island, which was fully open, to get away from it all. One day I bought a huge chicken dinner at Nathan’s, and took it to outdoor seating, I forgot napkins so went back inside to get some, while leaving the food on the table. When I got back a huge gull was descending on the meal. I shooed it away, but then fed it numerous scraps as it hung around. Beautiful birds!
Observational Learning: Studies show that seagulls watch what people are eating and target those specific items. They are more likely to approach food if they see a human interacting with it first.
Recognizing People: Gulls can remember faces, particularly those of people who have fed them or, conversely, those who have acted aggressively towards them.
Sorry pood, you are just a meal ticket.

That’s OK!

But I also think many animals have emotional attachments to humans.
 
Do you understand that if man's will is not free, the corollary must be: Thou Shall Not Blame.
But it's not though, is it?

People are quite capable of blaming, even when the target of that blame is inanimate, and free will isn't even a possibility.



And frankly, you can't really blame them for that.

Thou Shall Not Blame is a corollary to not having free will, for how can you blame anyone for doing what they could not help but do at any given moment?

Therefore (try to follow his reasoning instead of challenging him before you even understand how this works) you cannot blame them for anything once they sign an agreement to become a citizen, which requires that they won’t blame anyone for anything either. In return, they will receive a guarantee that will help them in their time of need if they fall below the standard of living that was created at the time they became a citizen.
 
CHAPTER SIX

THE NEW ECONOMIC WORLD


And now my friends, you are about to behold an actual miracle as the knowledge that man’s will is not free and what this means not only puts a mathematical end to the possibility of war and crime but completely changes the entire economic system to one of complete security. As you begin reading this chapter, it is assumed that you thoroughly understand the two-sided equation; otherwise, the rest of the book will appear like a fairytale. Remember, at one time landing men on the moon seemed like nothing more than science fiction until it was understood how this apparent miracle could be accomplished. From here on in, each move I make is equivalent to the forced moves in a chess game; consequently, no attempt is necessary because checkmate cannot be avoided, nor can the Golden Age be stopped. In other words, it is mathematically impossible to stop the development of something everybody wants. If the rich and poor, the capitalistic and communist countries, plus everybody else not mentioned, desire what I am about to show, is it possible for this Golden Age not to become a reality? How is it humanly possible to be dissatisfied with the solution when it is impossible not to be satisfied? I am going to reduce the differences between people to a common denominator that satisfies the whole human race. God shows no partiality, and since I have been sent here on a mission by God Himself, everybody to me is equal, regardless of his color, race, creed, gender, sexual orientation, or anything else you care to throw in. Consequently, the United States, though I live here, is no more a problem to me than Russia or China. Besides, nobody asked to be born, and once it is understood that man’s will is not free, and what this means, how is it possible to blame an individual for anything when both sides of this human equation understand the principles? This is a discovery that no one ever knew about; therefore, the experts in every field are also inadequately prepared to judge its ability to accomplish what was never before possible: the prevention of war and crime. At this juncture, my friend and I continued our dialogue.

“Something puzzles me very much because it seems under certain conditions this principle can have no effect. If man is compelled to move in the direction of greater satisfaction, and the conditions of the environment cause him as a solution to his particular problem to prefer the lesser of two evils, how is it possible to remove the evil when his choice, no matter what he selects is still evil? Self-preservation is the first law of nature and if he can’t satisfy his needs without hurting others, the knowledge that they will never blame him for this hurt to them can never prevent him from moving in this direction because he has no choice.”

“You are 100% correct because he is already being hurt by the environment and under such conditions he is justified to retaliate.”

“This is the only thing that had me puzzled; otherwise, your reasoning is flawless.”

“It is important to understand that in order to solve a problem, even with our basic principle, we must know what we are faced with and in the economic world there are three aspects of hurt. The first is not being able to fulfill our basic needs. The second is the inability to maintain the standard of living that was developed. And the last is to be denied an opportunity, if desired, to improve one’s standard of living.”

Before I demonstrate how this hurt in the economic world is removed, it is necessary to remind you of this key fact: Man’s will is not free because he never has a choice, as with aging, and then it is obvious that he is under the normal compulsion of living regardless of what his particular motion at any moment might be, or he has a choice and then is given two or more alternatives of which he is compelled, by his very nature, to prefer the one that gives him greater satisfaction whether it is the lesser of two evils, the greater of two goods, or a good over an evil. The natural law implicit in the two-sided equation cannot prevent man from finding greater satisfaction in hurting others when not to do this makes matters worse for himself as would be the case if he were forced, beyond his control, to lose his source of income and be placed in a position where he could not meet his living expenses or acquire the necessaries of life. Just the possibility that this could happen (this pervasive insecurity) activates and justifies the law of self-preservation to lie, cheat, steal, and even kill if there is no other way to get the money he needs or might need for survival. It is also important to realize that when man is compelled to give up his desire to hurt others because he knows there will be no blame, he is not choosing the greater of two goods or the lesser of two evils, but a good over an evil. But if by not hurting others he makes matters worse for himself, then he is compelled to prefer the lesser of two evils and this is what happens where the first two aspects of hurt are concerned.

Consequently, if we find ourselves unable to get what we need, then we are compelled to blame and even hurt those who have it. An example of this occurs when employees, who find their income falling short of the mark because of rising prices, blame their employer for having too much money and strike to take some of it away. The employer, in turn, who has discovered that the strike has lowered his income, and the government, finding itself unable to meet its needs under the present tax structure, blame the people for having too much money and decide to take some of it away by increasing prices and taxes. The people, falling below their needs because of this increase, blame the government and anybody else they can cheat to get back what they lost. The manufacturers, wholesalers, and retailers are compelled to lay off their surplus employees when consumption slows down and to prevent this, since there is no way the United States can consume all it produces (I am using the United States as an example since I live here, but this applies to any country that produces more than it consumes), the government is forced to do everything humanly possible to keep its foreign markets open and reduce unnecessary competition; otherwise, a recession and perhaps depression could result. It is true that war keeps millions of people employed, reduces the already overcrowded earth and the chances of a depression, so what is the better choice? Everywhere we look, man is compelled to prefer the lesser of two evils, and under these conditions our basic principle can have no effect. Therefore, to solve our problem, since this is the kind of situation that exists in the economic world, it is necessary to remove the first blow. To clarify this, if A is compelled to hurt B because the alternative of not doing this is still worse, then A has no choice but to hurt B, as when the unions strike, when prices and taxes are increased, when layoffs occur, when government prefers war, etc. But if there is no possibility for A to make matters worse for himself by not hurting B, then this aspect of justification has been removed, and it then becomes possible to prevent man from desiring to hurt others when he knows there will be no blame, which compels him, beyond his control, to choose a good (not to hurt anybody) over an evil (to do so). Now the question arises at this point: “How can we create an environment that would remove the conditions which make it necessary to select the lesser of two evils as a solution to our problems?”

“I really don’t know, especially since you already said that the basic principle cannot be used here.”

“It can’t be used in a positive, but it can in a negative sense. Obviously, before the removal of all blame can prevent man from desiring to strike a first blow, which is to gain (to improve his standard of living) at the expense of others, it is absolutely necessary to remove the possibility that an individual is necessarily hurting others in order to prevent himself from becoming a loser (from going below his standard of living), and there is only one way this can be accomplished. Let me explain what I mean.

If someone was hurt and yelling, ‘Help! Help! Help!’ and you were in a position to render assistance without hurting yourself while knowing that you would never be blamed if you didn’t, is it humanly possible for you to find satisfaction in ignoring this cry, especially if you know absolutely and positively that all mankind, should you ever find yourself in a similar position, would never fail to help you?”

“Under such conditions I believe that my friend and I would desire to help this individual.”

“Well, believe it or not, this is the key to the economic solution. Since we have already established the two conditions that strike the first blow of hurt, and since those who fall below their standard of living along with those who cannot acquire the necessaries of life are hurt (drowning, so to speak) and yelling for help but will never blame us if we don’t, although they know we can if we want to (for over this I will demonstrate that we have mathematical control), we are given no choice but to unite in such a way without blaming anybody for anything (because everything developed out of mathematical necessity) that all mankind, notwithstanding, will be guaranteed against the possibility of this hurt. By allowing everybody complete freedom to improve their standard of living without the slightest fear of punishment or retaliation, they will be compelled of their own free will to prefer good, that is, not starting anything evil (striking a first blow), because no satisfaction can be gotten otherwise… under the changed conditions.”

“This sounds good if nothing else. And you seem to have all the answers, but how is it possible to meet the extra cost of raising all those who are not receiving the necessaries of life to this basic standard plus meeting the entire guarantee? If 50 billion dollars was needed for one week and all that could be raised without anybody going below his basic standard was 30 billion, you’re in trouble. And what about those who cannot understand what it means that man’s will is not free, which knowledge is necessary to prevent a hurt when man is given his freedom? He must understand the principles in order to consider this hurt to others the worst possible choice. And even if he does understand but your guarantee fails to work because there is just not enough money-labor, he would be compelled as a motion in the direction of greater satisfaction to take advantage of not being blamed to select the lesser of two evils, that is, to take what he needs from others one way or another rather than go below his standard. Furthermore, guaranteeing his standard of living is a negative benefit if he is not at all satisfied with it, which means that he might prefer the insecurity of going below, as a gambler will do, to the security that could deny him the opportunity of improving. But even giving you the benefit of the doubt that the principles can be taught, the guarantee made to work, and the overall benefits will be positive as well as negative, how is it humanly possible to get such a world started when communism and capitalism have opposing ideologies? Last but far from least, what do you mean by a standard of living?”

All of your questions will be answered, but you must be patient as I cannot answer everything at once. It is extremely important to understand that there are three forms to this first blow, and we have been discussing the second form only, which cannot be prevented until the first form, struck by the law of self-preservation, is permanently removed. Let me explain.
 
P_g

To me the book is nonsense, period.

You do not appear to have read anything but the book, certainly not science. Lessans was behind the science curve when he wrote, more so today it is way behind current science.

You post the book like a communist quotes Marx.

I post a study tat shows crows recognize and remember human faces, you say 'but, but ....' as usual.

The last excerpt says nothing. I an asking about how it works with real human beings and real human dynamics. How do you arbitrate disputes?

Do you think we will bnecome an ant colony?

Watch the old movie Lost Horizons. Should be available free. The book cmje out of the Utopian movement.

James Hilton (1900–1954) is
widely regarded as a significant figure in utopian literature due to his 1933 novel Lost Horizon, which introduced the concept of Shangri-La. While the novel is a foundational text of the modern utopian myth, scholars and critics often describe it as a complex blend of utopian and dystopian elements.

There were different visions of a Utopia,. Before the reality of Stalin became known some looked to Russian communism was a Utopia.


"Utopian socialism" is the term often used to describe the first current of modern socialism and socialist thought as exemplified by the work of Henri de Saint-Simon, Charles Fourier, Étienne Cabet, and Robert Owen.[1] Utopian socialism is often described as the presentation of visions and outlines for imaginary or futuristic ideal and socialist societies that pursue ideals of positive inter-personal relationships separate from capitalist mechanisms. However, later socialists such as the Marxists and the critics of socialism both disparaged utopian socialism as not being grounded in actual material conditions of existing society. Utopian socialist visions of ideal societies compete with revolutionary and social democratic movements.[2]

Later socialists have applied the term utopian socialism to socialists who lived in the first quarter of the 19th century. They used the term as a pejorative in order to dismiss the ideas of the earlier thinkers as fanciful and unrealistic.[3] Ethical socialism, a similar school of thought that emerged in the early 20th century, makes the case for socialism on moral grounds and is sometimes also disparaged.[4]


A utopia (/juːˈtoʊpiə/ ⓘ yoo-TOH-pee-ə) is an imagined community or society that possesses highly desirable or near-perfect qualities for its residents. The term was coined by Sir Thomas More for his 1516 book Utopia, which describes a fictional island society in the New World,[1] but some utopian visions predate it.

Hypothetical utopias and existing intentional communities that have utopian elements focus on, among other things, equality in the areas of economics, government and justice, with the method and structure of proposed implementation varying according to ideology.[2] Lyman Tower Sargent argues that the nature of a utopia is inherently contradictory because societies are not homogeneous. Their members have desires that conflict and therefore cannot simultaneously be satisfied. To quote:

There are socialist, capitalist, monarchical, democratic, anarchist, ecological, feminist, patriarchal, egalitarian, hierarchical, racist, left-wing, right-wing, reformist, free love, nuclear family, extended family, gay, lesbian and many more utopias [ Naturism, Nude Christians, ...] Utopianism, some argue, is essential for the improvement of the human condition. But if used wrongly, it becomes dangerous. Utopia has an inherent contradictory nature here.

— Lyman Tower Sargent, Utopianism: A very short introduction (2010)[3]

The prblem with any systm is preventing tyrany.

Way back in the time of Henry 8th Thomas More wrote society creates the conditions in which people have to resort to crime to survive, then punishes them for it.

Lessans is crude and amateurish compared to he history of utopian thought.
 
In my view determinism and free will are basically the same thing. You cannot have the latter without the former.

That has been debated for centuries. Libertarians disagree, incompatibilists disagree.....who is right? Everyone thinks that they are right.

In the case of instant vision, projection and determinism as a means to world peace, there is no debate, it's just a bad idea.
DBT, you are mixing his discoveries up. Stick with his first discovery, which is why we can be prevented from striking a first blow.


There is no discovery. There is no real time/instant vision, no projection, and how some form of tweaked determinism is supposed to bring about world peace has not, despite numerous requests, been explained.
I am trying, as I said earlier, but this is not the way to discuss a book that has NOT been read. I must have been dreaming when I thought this could work, but there is no way it can. It's not the fault of the discovery, but how it's being delivered. There is no demonstration given in a step-by-step fashion. Look at what Pood is doing? He's doing the very same thing he did at FF. He's trying to yank sentences out of context and make them look ridiculous. I've learned my lesson. When I leave here, I'm not doing this again. Every bit of desire has been drained out of me.


I assume that you have read the book, that you should be familiar with the authors contentions, so it shouldn't be a problem to explain the link between his modified version of determinism and how that relates to world peace....plus how real time seeing relates to this claim.

Maybe give a definition of his modified form of determinism as a start. That would help.
I'm curious. Did you read the first three chapters that I posted or not? It begins on post 5473. The modified form of the definition is necessary because determinism, the way it is defined, talks about antecedent events CAUSING a chain of events that are determined without any possibility of it being any different. This is 100% true. But, according to Lessans, the past is nothing more than a memory; it cannot cause... because it doesn't exist. We make choices based on our current knowledge and use what we remember to guide our next decision in the direction that offers us greater satisfaction. The other side of this is that nothing can make us do what we make up our mind not to do. We have absolute control over this. I'm beginning to be concerned that no one understands the core of the discovery that are based on these two principles. Please go back to post 5473 and start reading if you haven't already. I cannot do this all alone. People have to meet me halfway if they are truly interested in following these principles, which will put an end to war. I am not getting into the senses again unless his first discovery is understood.

If the definition of determinism is modified to permit events that have not been determined, it's no longer determinism. The author is simply moving the goalposts. That is not a discovery.
 
Here in Seattle pigeons and sea gulls are everywhere. No natural predators. Pigeons eat and crap all over. Sea gulls are nasty flying rats.
:sadcheer:

Seagulls, really just gulls, are not nasty flying rats. They are beautiful creatures. I believe it was Dawkins who stated that they are so well designed for flight that it could almost make him believe in a designer.

Gulls, who eat worms, are so smart that they have figured out how do a collective dance on sunny days that sounds like the patter of rain. This makes the worms come out, whom they then eat.

Pigeons are beautiful. They have five cones so they see tens of millions of colors that humans don’t. They are very intelligent, and recognize individual humans. Several years ago, I had a pigeon friend, Brownie, with whom I shared roast chicken on a park bench. He let me pet him and so have other pigeons.

Pigeons and gulls in cities absolutely do have predators: falcons, hawks, owls, racoons, cats, among others. I have seen a falcon in a park grab a pigeon and fly away with it.

Gills are flying rats. They steal from each other. Crap all over.

In Washington state, it is illegal to feed seagulls in all state park areas and in various cities where local ordinances prohibit the practice. While there is no universal statewide ban specifically for seagulls, new 2025 regulations from the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
(WDFW) make it illegal to feed any wildlife if doing so causes deer, elk, or moose to congregate.
Enforcement: Penalties for seagull-feeding offenses can range from small fines to civil penalties of up to $750 depending on the severity and local code.

Environmental and Health Impact

Disease Spread: Feeding encourages gulls to crowd together, which promotes the spread of diseases among birds and potentially to humans.
Public Nuisance: Large congregations of fed gulls can cause defacement and deterioration of public and private property through droppings and litter.

Seagulls are highly opportunistic, omnivorous feeders that eat a wide range of foods, including fish, marine invertebrates (crabs, mussels), insects, eggs, rodents, and refuse. Their diets vary by location, shifting from natural marine prey to scavenging human trash, fast food, and agricultural waste.\

I watched them drop shellfish on rocks to crack the shell. When one gets food in the beak others chase it to take it away.

I watched gulls line up with diving birds and try to go underwater with them.

Observational Learning: Studies show that seagulls watch what people are eating and target those specific items. They are more likely to approach food if they see a human interacting with it first.
Recognizing People: Gulls can remember faces, particularly those of people who have fed them or, conversely, those who have acted aggressively towards them.
Sorry pood, you are just a meal ticket.

Crows can remember faces. I watched a University Washington study on it out on the open. If you piss off crows they will remember you. A guy wore a mask and harassed crows. When he waked past without it no reaction, reacted to the mask. It appeared it could be communicated to other crows.

Pigeons were once trained to spot international orange for open water aircraft search. They would peck on a device to indicate direction.

Pigeons were indeed used in aerial water searches, most notably in a U.S. Coast Guard program called
Project Sea Hunt during the late 1970s and early 1980s. In this program, trained pigeons were used as "pigeon-powered sensors" to spot survivors, life rafts, and debris in the open ocean.
These birds definitely have amazing skills, but they cannot recognize faces in a lineup (as far as I can tell) without other cues to help them. They may associate a mask with aggression if they were hurt by someone wearing one (that's no surprise), but this does not prove that the eyes are a sense organ.

For heavens sake, animals need to recognize objects in their environment in order to interact with it, find food, shelter, avoid danger. That is what sight enables. The eyes detect light and the brain generates sight.
 
In my view determinism and free will are basically the same thing. You cannot have the latter without the former.

That has been debated for centuries. Libertarians disagree, incompatibilists disagree.....who is right? Everyone thinks that they are right.

In the case of instant vision, projection and determinism as a means to world peace, there is no debate, it's just a bad idea.
DBT, you are mixing his discoveries up. Stick with his first discovery, which is why we can be prevented from striking a first blow.


There is no discovery. There is no real time/instant vision, no projection, and how some form of tweaked determinism is supposed to bring about world peace has not, despite numerous requests, been explained.
I am trying, as I said earlier, but this is not the way to discuss a book that has NOT been read. I must have been dreaming when I thought this could work, but there is no way it can. It's not the fault of the discovery, but how it's being delivered. There is no demonstration given in a step-by-step fashion. Look at what Pood is doing? He's doing the very same thing he did at FF. He's trying to yank sentences out of context and make them look ridiculous. I've learned my lesson. When I leave here, I'm not doing this again. Every bit of desire has been drained out of me.


I assume that you have read the book, that you should be familiar with the authors contentions, so it shouldn't be a problem to explain the link between his modified version of determinism and how that relates to world peace....plus how real time seeing relates to this claim.

Maybe give a definition of his modified form of determinism as a start. That would help.
I'm curious. Did you read the first three chapters that I posted or not? It begins on post 5473. The modified form of the definition is necessary because determinism, the way it is defined, talks about antecedent events CAUSING a chain of events that are determined without any possibility of it being any different. This is 100% true. But, according to Lessans, the past is nothing more than a memory; it cannot cause... because it doesn't exist. We make choices based on our current knowledge and use what we remember to guide our next decision in the direction that offers us greater satisfaction. The other side of this is that nothing can make us do what we make up our mind not to do. We have absolute control over this. I'm beginning to be concerned that no one understands the core of the discovery that are based on these two principles. Please go back to post 5473 and start reading if you haven't already. I cannot do this all alone. People have to meet me halfway if they are truly interested in following these principles, which will put an end to war. I am not getting into the senses again unless his first discovery is understood.

If the definition of determinism is modified to permit events that have not been determined, it's no longer determinism. The author is simply moving the goalposts. That is not a discovery.
WTF, this is not changing the goalposts. Are you serious DBT? Do you not understand the definition at all? 😲
 
Here in Seattle pigeons and sea gulls are everywhere. No natural predators. Pigeons eat and crap all over. Sea gulls are nasty flying rats.
:sadcheer:

Seagulls, really just gulls, are not nasty flying rats. They are beautiful creatures. I believe it was Dawkins who stated that they are so well designed for flight that it could almost make him believe in a designer.

Gulls, who eat worms, are so smart that they have figured out how do a collective dance on sunny days that sounds like the patter of rain. This makes the worms come out, whom they then eat.

Pigeons are beautiful. They have five cones so they see tens of millions of colors that humans don’t. They are very intelligent, and recognize individual humans. Several years ago, I had a pigeon friend, Brownie, with whom I shared roast chicken on a park bench. He let me pet him and so have other pigeons.

Pigeons and gulls in cities absolutely do have predators: falcons, hawks, owls, racoons, cats, among others. I have seen a falcon in a park grab a pigeon and fly away with it.

Gills are flying rats. They steal from each other. Crap all over.

In Washington state, it is illegal to feed seagulls in all state park areas and in various cities where local ordinances prohibit the practice. While there is no universal statewide ban specifically for seagulls, new 2025 regulations from the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
(WDFW) make it illegal to feed any wildlife if doing so causes deer, elk, or moose to congregate.
Enforcement: Penalties for seagull-feeding offenses can range from small fines to civil penalties of up to $750 depending on the severity and local code.

Environmental and Health Impact

Disease Spread: Feeding encourages gulls to crowd together, which promotes the spread of diseases among birds and potentially to humans.
Public Nuisance: Large congregations of fed gulls can cause defacement and deterioration of public and private property through droppings and litter.

Seagulls are highly opportunistic, omnivorous feeders that eat a wide range of foods, including fish, marine invertebrates (crabs, mussels), insects, eggs, rodents, and refuse. Their diets vary by location, shifting from natural marine prey to scavenging human trash, fast food, and agricultural waste.\

I watched them drop shellfish on rocks to crack the shell. When one gets food in the beak others chase it to take it away.

I watched gulls line up with diving birds and try to go underwater with them.

Observational Learning: Studies show that seagulls watch what people are eating and target those specific items. They are more likely to approach food if they see a human interacting with it first.
Recognizing People: Gulls can remember faces, particularly those of people who have fed them or, conversely, those who have acted aggressively towards them.
Sorry pood, you are just a meal ticket.

Crows can remember faces. I watched a University Washington study on it out on the open. If you piss off crows they will remember you. A guy wore a mask and harassed crows. When he waked past without it no reaction, reacted to the mask. It appeared it could be communicated to other crows.

Pigeons were once trained to spot international orange for open water aircraft search. They would peck on a device to indicate direction.

Pigeons were indeed used in aerial water searches, most notably in a U.S. Coast Guard program called
Project Sea Hunt during the late 1970s and early 1980s. In this program, trained pigeons were used as "pigeon-powered sensors" to spot survivors, life rafts, and debris in the open ocean.
These birds definitely have amazing skills, but they cannot recognize faces in a lineup (as far as I can tell) without other cues to help them. They may associate a mask with aggression if they were hurt by someone wearing one (that's no surprise), but this does not prove that the eyes are a sense organ.

For heavens sake, animals need to recognize objects in their environment in order to interact with it, find food, shelter, avoid danger. That is what sight enables. The eyes detect light and the brain generates sight.
I am not talking about light. I am talking about recognition. Where have you been whole this time?
 
P_g

To me the book is nonsense, period.

You do not appear to have read anything but the book, certainly not science. Lessans was behind the science curve when he wrote, more so today it is way behind current science.

You post the book like a communist quotes Marx.

I post a study tat shows crows recognize and remember human faces, you say 'but, but ....' as usual.

The last excerpt says nothing. I an asking about how it works with real human beings and real human dynamics. How do you arbitrate disputes?

Do you think we will bnecome an ant colony?

Watch the old movie Lost Horizons. Should be available free. The book cmje out of the Utopian movement.

James Hilton (1900–1954) is
widely regarded as a significant figure in utopian literature due to his 1933 novel Lost Horizon, which introduced the concept of Shangri-La. While the novel is a foundational text of the modern utopian myth, scholars and critics often describe it as a complex blend of utopian and dystopian elements.

There were different visions of a Utopia,. Before the reality of Stalin became known some looked to Russian communism was a Utopia.


"Utopian socialism" is the term often used to describe the first current of modern socialism and socialist thought as exemplified by the work of Henri de Saint-Simon, Charles Fourier, Étienne Cabet, and Robert Owen.[1] Utopian socialism is often described as the presentation of visions and outlines for imaginary or futuristic ideal and socialist societies that pursue ideals of positive inter-personal relationships separate from capitalist mechanisms. However, later socialists such as the Marxists and the critics of socialism both disparaged utopian socialism as not being grounded in actual material conditions of existing society. Utopian socialist visions of ideal societies compete with revolutionary and social democratic movements.[2]

Later socialists have applied the term utopian socialism to socialists who lived in the first quarter of the 19th century. They used the term as a pejorative in order to dismiss the ideas of the earlier thinkers as fanciful and unrealistic.[3] Ethical socialism, a similar school of thought that emerged in the early 20th century, makes the case for socialism on moral grounds and is sometimes also disparaged.[4]


A utopia (/juːˈtoʊpiə/ ⓘ yoo-TOH-pee-ə) is an imagined community or society that possesses highly desirable or near-perfect qualities for its residents. The term was coined by Sir Thomas More for his 1516 book Utopia, which describes a fictional island society in the New World,[1] but some utopian visions predate it.

Hypothetical utopias and existing intentional communities that have utopian elements focus on, among other things, equality in the areas of economics, government and justice, with the method and structure of proposed implementation varying according to ideology.[2] Lyman Tower Sargent argues that the nature of a utopia is inherently contradictory because societies are not homogeneous. Their members have desires that conflict and therefore cannot simultaneously be satisfied. To quote:

There are socialist, capitalist, monarchical, democratic, anarchist, ecological, feminist, patriarchal, egalitarian, hierarchical, racist, left-wing, right-wing, reformist, free love, nuclear family, extended family, gay, lesbian and many more utopias [ Naturism, Nude Christians, ...] Utopianism, some argue, is essential for the improvement of the human condition. But if used wrongly, it becomes dangerous. Utopia has an inherent contradictory nature here.

— Lyman Tower Sargent, Utopianism: A very short introduction (2010)[3]

The prblem with any systm is preventing tyrany.

Way back in the time of Henry 8th Thomas More wrote society creates the conditions in which people have to resort to crime to survive, then punishes them for it.

Lessans is crude and amateurish compared to he history of utopian thought.
Then why are you here? I would not stay if I thought something was nonsense. You can leave and find something more to your liking.
 
Pg
Why am I here? WOW! When you really think about it why is anyone anywhere? That's a doozy of question. I am flummoxed.

You post a claim of a revolutionary discovery that will end war and crime and bring world peace. I disagree and think the arguments are nonsense.

Watch the 1937 movie Lost Horizons. I think it may depict what you are trying to describe. Everyone is cooperating without conflict all the time.

When I thought about it I think you and Lessans are aptly called utopians. A utopian viiosn of the future.

Yes, particularly in the 1920s and 1930s, Russian communism was viewed by a notable segment of the American left-leaning intelligentsia, intellectuals, and reformers as a promising, "utopian" alternative to industrial capitalism
. This perception was driven by a desire to overcome the inequality and economic crises associated with the West, rather than a detailed understanding of the realities in the Soviet Union.

You refuse to take off your blinders and look at a greater context of your claims insisting Lessans is competently original.

Maybe you inherited that from Lessans.

You claim in the new worldth ere will be no government as we know it. I simply ask what happens in the new world when somebody dries not want to go along with the new order.

Same question I ask anarchists and I never get an answer. American anarchists go back to the 19th cenetury.

Anarchist voluntary cooperation is the foundational principle that society can function through horizontal, self-organized relationships rather than state coercion. It relies on mutual aid, voluntary association, and shared responsibility to manage social needs, aiming for equitable, non-hierarchical community organization often termed "social freedom"
.


Anarchism in the United States began in the mid-19th century and started to grow in influence as it entered the American labor movements, growing an anarcho-communist current as well as gaining notoriety for violent propaganda of the deed and campaigning for diverse social reforms in the early 20th century. By around the start of the 20th century, the heyday of individualist anarchism had passed[1] and anarcho-communism and other social anarchist currents emerged as the dominant anarchist tendency.[2]


A I said the idea of a syst5em without government and people just getting along without hierarchical structures is not new.

As I said before you have a lot of competition from well established organized philosophies.

There is today a well sheathed communist faction in the USA. One had been on our city council tor for years. She advocated getting rid of police and having communities police themselves.
 
Here in Seattle pigeons and sea gulls are everywhere. No natural predators. Pigeons eat and crap all over. Sea gulls are nasty flying rats.
:sadcheer:

Seagulls, really just gulls, are not nasty flying rats. They are beautiful creatures. I believe it was Dawkins who stated that they are so well designed for flight that it could almost make him believe in a designer.

Gulls, who eat worms, are so smart that they have figured out how do a collective dance on sunny days that sounds like the patter of rain. This makes the worms come out, whom they then eat.

Pigeons are beautiful. They have five cones so they see tens of millions of colors that humans don’t. They are very intelligent, and recognize individual humans. Several years ago, I had a pigeon friend, Brownie, with whom I shared roast chicken on a park bench. He let me pet him and so have other pigeons.

Pigeons and gulls in cities absolutely do have predators: falcons, hawks, owls, racoons, cats, among others. I have seen a falcon in a park grab a pigeon and fly away with it.

Gills are flying rats. They steal from each other. Crap all over.

In Washington state, it is illegal to feed seagulls in all state park areas and in various cities where local ordinances prohibit the practice. While there is no universal statewide ban specifically for seagulls, new 2025 regulations from the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
(WDFW) make it illegal to feed any wildlife if doing so causes deer, elk, or moose to congregate.
Enforcement: Penalties for seagull-feeding offenses can range from small fines to civil penalties of up to $750 depending on the severity and local code.

Environmental and Health Impact

Disease Spread: Feeding encourages gulls to crowd together, which promotes the spread of diseases among birds and potentially to humans.
Public Nuisance: Large congregations of fed gulls can cause defacement and deterioration of public and private property through droppings and litter.

Seagulls are highly opportunistic, omnivorous feeders that eat a wide range of foods, including fish, marine invertebrates (crabs, mussels), insects, eggs, rodents, and refuse. Their diets vary by location, shifting from natural marine prey to scavenging human trash, fast food, and agricultural waste.\

I watched them drop shellfish on rocks to crack the shell. When one gets food in the beak others chase it to take it away.

I watched gulls line up with diving birds and try to go underwater with them.

Observational Learning: Studies show that seagulls watch what people are eating and target those specific items. They are more likely to approach food if they see a human interacting with it first.
Recognizing People: Gulls can remember faces, particularly those of people who have fed them or, conversely, those who have acted aggressively towards them.
Sorry pood, you are just a meal ticket.

Crows can remember faces. I watched a University Washington study on it out on the open. If you piss off crows they will remember you. A guy wore a mask and harassed crows. When he waked past without it no reaction, reacted to the mask. It appeared it could be communicated to other crows.

Pigeons were once trained to spot international orange for open water aircraft search. They would peck on a device to indicate direction.

Pigeons were indeed used in aerial water searches, most notably in a U.S. Coast Guard program called
Project Sea Hunt during the late 1970s and early 1980s. In this program, trained pigeons were used as "pigeon-powered sensors" to spot survivors, life rafts, and debris in the open ocean.
These birds definitely have amazing skills, but they cannot recognize faces in a lineup (as far as I can tell) without other cues to help them. They may associate a mask with aggression if they were hurt by someone wearing one (that's no surprise), but this does not prove that the eyes are a sense organ.

For heavens sake, animals need to recognize objects in their environment in order to interact with it, find food, shelter, avoid danger. That is what sight enables. The eyes detect light and the brain generates sight.
I am not talking about light. I am talking about recognition. Where have you been whole this time?

I was talking about recognition. Read the first sentence. First the eyes detect light, convey information via the optic nerve, then the brain processes that information and generated conscious experience, including recognition.

Animals are able to recognize objects because they have eyes to detect light and brains that use that information to form mental imagery of the external world, they see and they recognize their surroundings.
 
Do you understand that if man's will is not free, the corollary must be: Thou Shall Not Blame.
But it's not though, is it?

People are quite capable of blaming, even when the target of that blame is inanimate, and free will isn't even a possibility.



And frankly, you can't really blame them for that.

😂:LOL::rofl:
 
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