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Richard Carrier’s “On the Historicity of Jesus” now out

The Gospels state that he had a big following, and that he got a hero's welcome in Jerusalem. You could try to quantify that.

Lpetrich, he wasn't a king or any sort of ruler, his mum and dad weren't a king or queen, and he didn't reign at all, never mind uneventfully.
The very first words of the New Testament are Matthew's lining up of the lineage that connects Jesus not just with David, but with Abraham, and with the exile, and with numerical significance (14 generations!!!). I believe this is the first known written case of False (Religious) Authority Fallacy. This person is clearly being driven up to being extremely significant! He isn't the son of a King. He is the fulfillment of prophecy, and this lineage proves it! Otherwise, why the exposition?
 
Cute. Now you've decided to gaslight your conversant.

Talk about chestnuts...

Did phands teach you that? Or, did you actually go to troll school?

I honestly don't know why you would not answer the simple question, 'do you think the Docetists believed that their non-corporeal Jesus had appeared on earth?'

But that it up to you. Whatever.

If your answer had been yes, then there was no point appealing to Docetism to help an ahistoricist case, imo.

If your answer had been no, then the next question would have been, 'where do you think they might have believed he appeared?'
 
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Cute. Now you've decided to gaslight your conversant.

Talk about chestnuts...

Did phands teach you that? Or, did you actually go to troll school?

I honestly don't know why you would not answer the simple question, 'do you think the Docetists believed that their non-corporeal Jesus had appeared on earth?'

But that it up to you. Whatever.

If your answer had been yes, then there was no point appealing to Docetism to help an ahistoricist case, imo.

If your answer had been no, then the next question would have been, 'where do you think they might have believed he appeared?'

I take it you ascribe all the supernatural elements of the Jesus tale to literary license but think there really was this dude who did and said the more mundane things.
 
I take it you ascribe all the supernatural elements of the Jesus tale to literary license but think there really was this dude who did and said the more mundane things.

Regarding the supernatural elements, it depends which ones you mean. That someone went around attempting faith-healing miracles and claiming other magic powers for instance, and was credited with success by followers, is very plausible and not at all unusual in the history of world religions and superstitions generally, even up to the present day.

When it comes to the mundane things, I think it's possible that at least a somewhat more militant rebel messianic claimant existed and that his more militant deeds were played down after he was killed.

I don't, on balance, subscribe to the idea that the supposedly earthly events in his supposed existence, corporeal or otherwise, were originally believed to have happened in outer space, but I'm not totally ruling it out.
 
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One thing that puts me off the Doherty/Carrier 'Outer Space' hypotheses (which are related but different) is the high total number of individual pieces of written evidence that have to be interpreted in a speculative way, often by different means. The use of the word 'anthropos' for man is only one example of this from many. The consistency with which the epistles use this word to mean earthly man are set aside in favour of citing an exception, and an (allegedly) equivalent use from a different context is co-opted instead.

Incidentally, does Carrier, when (questionably in the first place, according to some critiques of the maths) using Bayes Theorem on the issue, take into account the prior probability that if a certain word is used one way, dozens of times, in a closely-related set of texts, its use in one instance is likely related to the consistent usage? I don't think so. I Believe, and stand to be corrected, that he departs from BT there and opts instead for explanation-by-conjecture. If that is the case, I can't think of a good reason to selectively do that.

The other thing that bothers me about those two hypotheses is the number of supposed pieces of written evidenced that have to be speculated existed. Carrier's/Doherty's early christian ahistorists are arguably more ahistorical than anything else they are investigating. For example, Docetists who believed their Jesus did not appear on earth, or the writers of a supposed missing version of this or that document (Ascension of Isiah for example) that would, if it existed, support the case.

Ascension of Isiah is such a cornerstone of Carrier's hypothesis that he has called it 'a blueprint for cosmic Jesus' but that only works well if certain references to Jesus, apparently on earth, are taken out of it and a supposedly-missing version of A of I, which doesn't have them, is speculated about instead. That's a different use of the phrase 'is a blueprint' than I'm used to. 'Would be a blueprint if it existed' perhaps.

Finally, another thing that occurs to me is that some mythicists, when reading early christian texts, appear to not take sufficiently into account that they were all, without exception, written after the supposed figure was dead, and supposedly celestial at the time of writing, so of course there are a lot of references to a celestial figure. Ditto for a pre-existing celestial figure. But the idea that the figure was believed not to have at any time temporarily visited earth in-between celestially pre-existing and celestially post-existing just isn't there in the written evidence. One might even say, loosely, that this missing evidence is quasi-'mythical'.
 
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Regarding supposedly missing 'mundane evidence', some believe that a missing text contains a passage where Jesus goes down to the shop to buy milk because he had run out of it and coming back home with the milk afterwards without doing any magic or causing any sort of fuss. Dairy products being a staple part of the ancient Jewish diet, the prior probability of this event is considered very high.

Others argue that virtually all of the mundane evidence was redacted out.

Even others say that Jesus arguably not really doing anything especially mundane in any of the texts is a 'bizarre silence'.
 
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Really not sure what you're saying in those last three posts. I'm merely asking if you think the miracle tales are just literary license, the same thing you'd find in literature that isn't religious. Did the gospel protagonist return to life after execution? Did he raise the dead?
 
Say, joedad....If we can accept that one or more, or all, of the 'miracle stories' are just literary license, why can't we just extend that to assume that the entire story is literary license?
 
Really not sure what you're saying in those last three posts. I'm merely asking if you think the miracle tales are just literary license

See below.

..the same thing you'd find in literature that isn't religious.

You can find magic stuff in different sorts of books. The main difference in some cases is the intent of the writers and the beliefs of the readers. We can't really make a call on either of those in this case, especially given the large number of different documents (going way outside the gospels or even just the NT to include all Early Christian writings) but it does appear as if the readers believed what they read (or heard) in a religious sense and that many of the writers religiously believed them too. This is not unusual in cults.

Did the gospel protagonist return to life after execution? Did he raise the dead?



It doesn't necessarily have to have happened. But that's got little to do with whether it's literary license. Temporarily assuming a healer-preacher man existed (and they usually do) then allegedly doing miracles is par for the course, including raising the dead. All it takes is for gullible or superstitious people to believe it. It's still happening today in the USA for instance:

deadraisers_3113347b.jpg

No, those are not meant as joke T-shirts.


" “There was a guy in a hospital who’d died,” he says. “We stood and prayed. The next day we came back to pray for a friend. Her husband told us the doctors were astounded because the dead guy was being wheeled to the morgue and suddenly came back. Totally alive! No doctor could make sense of it. I don’t know his name or anything.” When did this happen? “Maybe 2009? I don’t remember what month.” "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...cals-who-believe-they-can-raise-the-dead.html

As to whether Jesus (if he existed) returned from the dead, is that a serious question? The answer is almost certainly not, but I think you must mean was he believed by some gullible superstitious people to have done so, in which case, sure, why not? That still happens today too. Even in that article above:

"You saw actual physical Jesus? “Yeah. With my eyes.” What did he look like? “He was more Arab looking that the common image.” Did he have a beard? “He didn’t,” he says. “But I wouldn’t be surprised if he grows it out once in a while.” "







And moving away from Christianity, this Indian guy, Sai Baba of Shirdi, who died in 1918, is credited with doing all sorts of miracles and coming back from the dead:

Shirdi_sai2.jpeg

http://www.saibabaofshirdi.net/

Basically, once you get to read up about faith healing and gurus, this sort of thing is commonplace.
 

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Heh...Next up, ruby will play with venomous snakes.

Or walk on coals, or cure someone of cancer, or make the lame walk...or whatever. Basically, if we are talking about supposed gurus or faith-healers, unusual claims are as common as muck and the stories about this figure are not surprising. And followers believe them. And believers who write about them afterwards generally believe what they write. That doesn't mean all writers are or were true believers or that all writers truly believe everything they write, but it's often the case when it comes to religions and/or cults.
 
Do not doubt the power of placebo.

The relevant genre here is 'Religious texts', specifically, 'religious texts pertaining to a recent cult that supposedly had a cult leader'. Certainly not history as a genre, and probably not fiction as a genre either.

Of course this doesn't mean there wasn't at least some literary license. Have you seen the film, 'Captain Philips'? Mostly factual events but with Martin Philip's character skewed:

"Real life crew members, however, described Phillips as “arrogant” and “foolish,” ignoring emails that warned about pirate attacks and jeopardizing his crew, with one member stating that “No one wants to sail with him.”...These qualities were swapped out for heroism and strong leadership in the film."
 
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Eden?
global flood?
exodus?
Christ?
Gabriel?
Moroni?
 
Heh...Next up, ruby will play with venomous snakes.

Or walk on coals, or cure someone of cancer, or make the lame walk...or whatever. Basically, if we are talking about supposed gurus or faith-healers, unusual claims are as common as muck and the stories about this figure are not surprising. And followers believe them. And believers who write about them afterwards generally believe what they write. That doesn't mean all writers are or were true believers or that all writers truly believe everything they write, but it's often the case when it comes to religions and/or cults.
Actually: walk on coals is no magic. Just physics and know how...
 
Lpetrich, he wasn't a king or any sort of ruler, his mum and dad weren't a king or queen, and he didn't reign at all, never mind uneventfully.
The very first words of the New Testament are Matthew's lining up of the lineage that connects Jesus not just with David, but with Abraham, and with the exile, and with numerical significance (14 generations!!!). I believe this is the first known written case of False (Religious) Authority Fallacy. This person is clearly being driven up to being extremely significant! He isn't the son of a King. He is the fulfillment of prophecy, and this lineage proves it! Otherwise, why the exposition?
Good point.

Although it must be noted that Jesus Christ was hardly alone in prophecy fulfillment. Several other legendary heroes have fulfilled prophecies, heroes like Zeus, Oedipus, Perseus, Romulus, Krishna, the Buddha, and King Arthur. But well-documented people seldom if ever fulfill prophecies. Especially for people in recent centuries, nobody has the faintest idea that they are coming.
 
Although it must be noted that Jesus Christ was hardly alone in prophecy fulfillment. Several other legendary heroes have fulfilled prophecies, heroes like Zeus, Oedipus, Perseus, Romulus, Krishna, the Buddha, and King Arthur. But well-documented people seldom if ever fulfill prophecies. Especially for people in recent centuries, nobody has the faintest idea that they are coming.

I wish I even had half a clue what you were saying or what point you were making during any part of that.
 
Although it must be noted that Jesus Christ was hardly alone in prophecy fulfillment. Several other legendary heroes have fulfilled prophecies, heroes like Zeus, Oedipus, Perseus, Romulus, Krishna, the Buddha, and King Arthur. But well-documented people seldom if ever fulfill prophecies. Especially for people in recent centuries, nobody has the faintest idea that they are coming.

I wish I even had half a clue what you were saying or what point you were making during any part of that.

I'm not surprised. We're still trying to figure out what planet you are from.
 
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