Roe v Wade is on deck

[Gospel]

My mother raised me to never put my penis in a woman unless I was prepared for the possibility of pregnancy and all the responsibilities that come along with it. Yesterday I asked her (because I never honestly thought to before) what her thoughts are on abortion. Her answer was predictable to me (being that I was raised by her) she said (paraphrasing) that a woman has full control over her body when deciding whether or not to have sex & if she gets pregnant she should accept the outcome of that choice. She also said a pregnant woman has 50% control over her body when pregnant. She also mentioned that a complete ban on abortion would be a bad idea (again paraphrasing) because it should be available for cases of rape & unviable pregnancies (medical reasons) as at that point the woman should retain 100% control of her body.

I tried asking her when she believes life starts and she refused to answer (literally sucked her teeth in that Jamaican way) and said (paraphrasing) if you don't want a baby don't have sex until you're ready for one.

I'm sharing this convo because I'm genuinely interested in opinions on my momma's position.

Spoiler: Warning

I love my momma so yall better go easy on her

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Another response to JD Vance, the Republican candidate for US Senate in Ohio:
J.D. Vance on Twitter: "If your worldview tells you that it’s bad for women to become mothers but liberating for them to work 90 hours a week in a cubicle at the New York Times or Goldman Sachs, you’ve been had." / Twitter

But then you have a mother that still has to work 90 hours a week in a cubicle. Conservatives long for the times when the woman stayed home and raised the kids, but also refuse to pay people enough so they can raise a family on one income.

They be saying the quiet parts more loudly now. They want to get rid of birth control because they want woman back 'where they belong'. The majority of America does not approve of this... and we are slipping into a state of tyranny of the minority.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Do you think they lied? If so, which sentences did they utter that were lies?

I said that it’s settled as a precedent of the Supreme Court entitled to respect under principles of stare decisis, and one of the important things to keep in mind about Roe v. Wade is that it has been reaffirmed many times over the past 45 years.

link

On stare decisis...

Stare decisis is the doctrine that courts will adhere to precedent in making their decisions. Stare decisis means “to stand by things decided” in Latin.

Durbin: There is a statement which you made in that book, which has been often quoted, and I want to make sure that I quote it accurately here today. … And I quote, “The intentional taking of human life by private persons is always wrong.” …

How could you square that statement with legal abortion?

Gorsuch: Senator, as the book explains, the Supreme Court of the United States has held in Roe v. Wade that a fetus is not a person for purposes of the 14th Amendment, and the book explains that.

Durbin: Do you accept that?

Gorsuch: That is the law of the land. I accept the law of the land, senator, yes.

link

 

[Toni]

My mother raised me to never put my penis in a woman unless I was prepared for the possibility of pregnancy and all the responsibilities that come along with it. Yesterday I asked her (because I never honestly thought to before) what her thoughts are on abortion. Her answer was predictable to me (being that I was raised by her) she said (paraphrasing) that a woman has full control over her body when deciding whether or not to have sex & if she gets pregnant she should accept the outcome of that choice. She also said a pregnant woman has 50% control over her body when pregnant. She also mentioned that a complete ban on abortion would be a bad idea (again paraphrasing) because it should be available for cases of rape & unviable pregnancies (medical reasons) as at that point the woman should retain 100% control of her body.

I tried asking her when she believes life starts and she refused to answer (literally sucked her teeth in that Jamaican way) and said (paraphrasing) if you don't want a baby don't have sex until you're ready for one.

I'm sharing this convo because I'm genuinely interested in opinions on my momma's position.

Spoiler: Warning

I love my momma so yall better go easy on her

At one point in time, I pretty much agreed with your momma. I was very young and had an idealistic/romantic bent of mind. I knew that I really wanted to have children, and probably a large family.

But then I began to look at abortion differently: what, really, was the difference between a baby conceived through rape or through a loving relationship--or even just teenagers fooling around and things getting out of hand with no precautions taken--or available to take? There is no real difference as far as the fetus is concerned. There is a pretty huge difference as far as the woman is concerned.

However a pregnancy begins, it is an enormous physical and emotional burden for the woman carrying the pregnancy, with many, many implications beyond the physical demands. Even if we lived in an ideal world where there was zero stigma attached to a woman becoming pregnant and zero negative consequences educationally or career wise or socially and even if she has access to the best medical care, secure and good housing, good nutrition, excellent support from all around her--even if her education and her career prospects are not negatively affected at all---pregnancy can cause serious medical complications and can result in the death of the mother. Some of those complications can affect her future fertility and her health for a period of time ranging from short term to permanent. There's also an emotional toll that can be enormous during pregnancy and after childbirth. Many women suffer post partum depression and the effects are not always recognized and are often untreated or under treated. Society has a lot of judgment to offer for the pregnant woman as well. There is an enormous loss of privacy when strangers want to touch your belly, offer you advice or cautionary tales and their opinions--some of which can be uplifting and even amusing and some of which are just awful, unwelcome, intrusive. This does not diminish among friends, family members, members of the medical community. All of this is just for starters.

And of course, we do not live in an ideal world.

I changed my mind as the reality of what pregnancy means and what its implications are became more apparent to me. No one has the right to force that choice on another person. Society does not have the right to force a girl or a woman to carry a pregnancy any more than society has the right to force the woman to terminate a pregnancy or surrender a child unless she has demonstrated she's unfit to raise the child or to insist she raise the child.

People have the right to their own body autonomy. Whether they donate blood or not is their choice. Whether they donate organs is their choice--even after their death, so long as they have made that choice known and recorded. Pregnancy means that the woman's blood and body fluids and tissues and organs are being used by another entity, at her expense and sometimes at the expense of her health, her reproductive capacity, and even her life. She has the right to agree to this or to choose not to carry the pregnancy.

I'm very solidly pro choice.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

My mother raised me to never put my penis in a woman unless I was prepared for the possibility of pregnancy and all the responsibilities that come along with it. Yesterday I asked her (because I never honestly thought to before) what her thoughts are on abortion. Her answer was predictable to me (being that I was raised by her) she said (paraphrasing) that a woman has full control over her body when deciding whether or not to have sex & if she gets pregnant she should accept the outcome of that choice. She also said a pregnant woman has 50% control over her body when pregnant. She also mentioned that a complete ban on abortion would be a bad idea (again paraphrasing) because it should be available for cases of rape & unviable pregnancies (medical reasons) as at that point the woman should retain 100% control of her body.

I tried asking her when she believes life starts and she refused to answer (literally sucked her teeth in that Jamaican way) and said (paraphrasing) if you don't want a baby don't have sex until you're ready for one.

I'm sharing this convo because I'm genuinely interested in opinions on my momma's position.

While it is decent advice to talk about not getting pregnant as a way to avoid accidental pregnancies, the truth is, people in mature relationships have accidents too. And ultimately, we need to step away from the Just Say No argument. There are unwanted pregnancies before Roe, during Roe, and now tragically after Roe. Abortion isn't the cause of unwanted pregnancies. Human nature is. And much like in an ideal world we wouldn't have car accidents, accidental pregnancy among a large group of people, despite precautions is a guarantee.

So the see no evil, hear no evil approach is effectively naïve. We need to address the problem, not pretend we can prevent it all the time.

And we are seeing with some GOP'ers and Justice Thomas, the target is well well beyond abortion. They are aiming at birth control (hence they aren't seeking to eliminate accidental pregnancies) and basic gay rights.

 

[TomC]

I'm sharing this convo because I'm genuinely interested in opinions on my momma's position.

She fuckin' nailed it.

She doesn't appear to buy the culture of entitlement and victimhood. Nobody is entitled to sex, and the predictable outcome doesn't mean you're a victim.
Tom

ETA ~Be sure to tell her that a white, atheist, faggot, Yankee said so.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm sharing this convo because I'm genuinely interested in opinions on my momma's position.

She fuckin' nailed it.

She doesn't appear to buy the culture of entitlement and victimhood. Nobody is entitled to sex, and the predictable outcome doesn't mean you're a victim.
Tom

Who said having self-autonomy over one's body being a right had anything to do with being a victim?

 

[TomC]

Who said having self-autonomy over one's body being a right had anything to do with being a victim?

I don't know anyone who will use those words in that order, it'd be a little too honest.

But let's face it. Fetal children are commonly described as a sort of parasite that pops into existence and tethers themselves to a host.
What Gospel's mom was pointing out is that personal autonomy exists before sex. Exercising it then would eliminate most of the problem.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

11 states have ban abortion (or effectively make access to it impossible ie 6-week ban), without exceptions for rape or incest. It'll shortly become 13 with Utah and Louisiana.

 

[Toni]

Who said having self-autonomy over one's body being a right had anything to do with being a victim?

I don't know anyone who will use those words in that order, it'd be a little too honest.

But let's face it. Fetal children are commonly described as a sort of parasite that pops into existence and tethers themselves to a host.
What Gospel's mom was pointing out is that personal autonomy exists before sex. Exercising it then would eliminate most of the problem.
Tom

The bolded portion above us as dishonest a piece of gobblety goop as I’ve read outside of a transcript of one of Trump’s speeches.

It would be much more honest if you to just state outright that bodily autonomy exists for men but not women, especially if they somehow manage to lose their virginity. Sex is an act that, for women, requires punishment and pregnancy and childbirth, or at least a loss of one’s reputation is fitting punishment. After all, Eve ate fruit from the forbidden tree and then she tempted Adam. Women are nothing but temptresses and the wellspring of all evil. Except, of course, for the Virgin Mary. And your mom.

As for men, boys will be boys.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Who said having self-autonomy over one's body being a right had anything to do with being a victim?

I don't know anyone who will use those words in that order, it'd be a little too honest.

But let's face it. Fetal children are commonly described as a sort of parasite that pops into existence and tethers themselves to a host.
What Gospel's mom was pointing out is that personal autonomy exists before sex. Exercising it then would eliminate most of the problem.
Tom

What does any of that have to do with self-autonomy over one's own body being a right?

Seems red herring this, red herring that, strawman this, strawman that...

...we are still left with people who think the State has the right to intervene on the internal biology of a woman.

 

[laughing dog]

Who said having self-autonomy over one's body being a right had anything to do with being a victim?

I don't know anyone who will use those words in that order, it'd be a little too honest.

It is a non-sequitur. There is nothing illogical or unreasonable to act to avoid a predictable or undesirable outcome.

But let's face it. Fetal children are commonly described as a sort of parasite that pops into existence and tethers themselves to a host.

“Fetal children” is a religious rhetorical term used to avoid the scientifically accurate terms “embryo” and “fetus”.

What Gospel's mom was pointing out is that personal autonomy exists before sex. Exercising it then would eliminate most of the problem.

Anyone remotely familiar with the historical record of human nature sees that as wishful thinking and nothing else.

More interestingly, exercising personal autonomy after sex does eliminate the problem. Yet the theocrats and misogynists act to prevent the exercise of personal autonomy of women who face very serious health and emotional choices.

 

[Gospel]

..we are still left with people who think the State has the right to intervene on the internal biology of a woman.

That's something I failed to ask my mother about. I presume from her approach to many things in life, that she believes she only has power over her own actions. I'll ask her and share later.

Edit: Ok that was fast. Didn't think I'd get her on the phone at this time of day (usually out in the garden away from the phone), She (paraphrasing) says her beliefs only applied to us (my siblings and myself) during the time we were her responsibility. Now that we are adults we can believe whatever we want; she did her best. I guess that means she doesn't believe she has the power over the biology of women.

Edit: I Forgot, to mention her response to the state question specifically (which came before the reply above). She (again paraphrasing) doesn't argue about laws & people decide for themselves what they believe is right or wrong. She's a Jehovah's witness so it's obvious to me that not arguing about laws thing is influenced by that.

 

[TomC]

At one point in time, I pretty much agreed with your momma. I was very young and had an idealistic/romantic bent of mind. I knew that I really wanted to have children, and probably a large family.

Funny how things turn out, innit?

I was in high school when the RvW decision was made. I was a voracious reader. I'd read zillions of opinions, across the spectrum of opinions, for a long time. In 1976, I graduated from 12 years of pricey Catholic Academy firmly believing that abortion was a private medical matter. Nobody's business but the woman and her doctor.

Then, a couple of years later, my own child became the issue. Over the course of around a month Judy and I came to the decision that abortion was our best option. We started looking for an abortion clinic(in a pre-internet world that was a tough one!). Then she miscarried. Our immediate problem was resolved.

But I couldn't stop thinking about what had actually happened. We, both of us, had enthusiastically consented to irresponsible sex. Mostly her really, I was a seriously closeted gay dude. But nevertheless, I was there and knew what I was doing.

I couldn't escape the reality. What we had done, up to the miscarriage, was choose sex, then decide to kill our kid because s/he didn't fit into our plans. That's the reality, ugly as it was. Over the course of another month or two, I became pretty hardcore anti-abortion. Believe it or not, the sharp edges of my then world view concerning reproductive morality have been ground off. I'm a whole lot more cognizant of the human reality. I'm a lot less judgemental than I used to be.

I went from Catholic Pro-Choice to non-theist Pro-Life.

Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

At one point in time, I pretty much agreed with your momma. I was very young and had an idealistic/romantic bent of mind. I knew that I really wanted to have children, and probably a large family.

Funny how things turn out, innit?

I was in high school when the RvW decision was made. I was a voracious reader. I'd read zillions of opinions, across the spectrum of opinions, for a long time. In 1976, I graduated from 12 years of pricey Catholic Academy firmly believing that abortion was a private medical matter. Nobody's business but the woman and her doctor.

Then, a couple of years later, my own child became the issue. Over the course of around a month Judy and I came to the decision that abortion was our best option. We started looking for an abortion clinic(in a pre-internet world that was a tough one!). Then she miscarried. Our immediate problem was resolved.

But I couldn't stop thinking about what had actually happened. We, both of us, had enthusiastically consented to irresponsible sex. Mostly her really, I was a seriously closeted gay dude. But nevertheless, I was there and knew what I was doing.

I couldn't escape the reality. What we had done, up to the miscarriage, was choose sex, then decide to kill our kid because s/he didn't fit into our plans. That's the reality, ugly as it was. Over the course of another month or two, I became pretty hardcore anti-abortion. Believe it or not, the sharp edges of my then world view concerning reproductive morality have been ground off. I'm a whole lot more cognizant of the human reality. I'm a lot less judgemental than I used to be.

I went from Catholic Pro-Choice to non-theist Pro-Life.

Tom

And I fully support your personal choice on the position of being pro-life. Just as I support every woman to make that decision on their own. Granted, it is a little less 'in theory' for pregnant woman than for a guy.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

..we are still left with people who think the State has the right to intervene on the internal biology of a woman.

That's something I failed to ask my mother about. I presume from her approach to many things in life, that she believes she only has power over her own actions. I'll ask her and share later.

I personally don't care what she believes (or why), as long as she is allowed to choose, for herself, what she does with her body.

 

[Toni]

At one point in time, I pretty much agreed with your momma. I was very young and had an idealistic/romantic bent of mind. I knew that I really wanted to have children, and probably a large family.

Funny how things turn out, innit?

I was in high school when the RvW decision was made. I was a voracious reader. I'd read zillions of opinions, across the spectrum of opinions, for a long time. In 1976, I graduated from 12 years of pricey Catholic Academy firmly believing that abortion was a private medical matter. Nobody's business but the woman and her doctor.

Then, a couple of years later, my own child became the issue. Over the course of around a month Judy and I came to the decision that abortion was our best option. We started looking for an abortion clinic(in a pre-internet world that was a tough one!). Then she miscarried. Our immediate problem was resolved.

But I couldn't stop thinking about what had actually happened. We, both of us, had enthusiastically consented to irresponsible sex. Mostly her really, I was a seriously closeted gay dude. But nevertheless, I was there and knew what I was doing.

I couldn't escape the reality. What we had done, up to the miscarriage, was choose sex, then decide to kill our kid because s/he didn't fit into our plans. That's the reality, ugly as it was. Over the course of another month or two, I became pretty hardcore anti-abortion. Believe it or not, the sharp edges of my then world view concerning reproductive morality have been ground off. I'm a whole lot more cognizant of the human reality. I'm a lot less judgemental than I used to be.

I went from Catholic Pro-Choice to non-theist Pro-Life.

Tom

Do I remember correctly that there was never a positive pregnancy test confirming the pregnancy?

Interesting that you see yourself as a lot less judgmental than you used to be. When you had skin in the game, you were enthusiastically looking for an abortion fir the girl. After she miscarried (if a pregnancy had existed), it was easy to change your mind about abortion.

It’s a nice touch that while you both were ‘enthusiastic’ it was ‘mostly her’ since you are gay, although closeted at the time.

 

[TomC]

At one point in time, I pretty much agreed with your momma. I was very young and had an idealistic/romantic bent of mind. I knew that I really wanted to have children, and probably a large family.

Funny how things turn out, innit?

I was in high school when the RvW decision was made. I was a voracious reader. I'd read zillions of opinions, across the spectrum of opinions, for a long time. In 1976, I graduated from 12 years of pricey Catholic Academy firmly believing that abortion was a private medical matter. Nobody's business but the woman and her doctor.

Then, a couple of years later, my own child became the issue. Over the course of around a month Judy and I came to the decision that abortion was our best option. We started looking for an abortion clinic(in a pre-internet world that was a tough one!). Then she miscarried. Our immediate problem was resolved.

But I couldn't stop thinking about what had actually happened. We, both of us, had enthusiastically consented to irresponsible sex. Mostly her really, I was a seriously closeted gay dude. But nevertheless, I was there and knew what I was doing.

I couldn't escape the reality. What we had done, up to the miscarriage, was choose sex, then decide to kill our kid because s/he didn't fit into our plans. That's the reality, ugly as it was. Over the course of another month or two, I became pretty hardcore anti-abortion. Believe it or not, the sharp edges of my then world view concerning reproductive morality have been ground off. I'm a whole lot more cognizant of the human reality. I'm a lot less judgemental than I used to be.

I went from Catholic Pro-Choice to non-theist Pro-Life.

Tom

Do I remember correctly that there was never a positive pregnancy test confirming the pregnancy?

Interesting that you see yourself as a lot less judgmental than you used to be. When you had skin in the game, you were enthusiastically looking for an abortion fir the girl. After she miscarried (if a pregnancy had existed), it was easy to change your mind about abortion.

It’s a nice touch that while you both were ‘enthusiastic’ it was ‘mostly her’ since you are gay, although closeted at the time.

This is the kind of dishonest post I've come to expect from you.

And feminist Wokesters in general.
Tom

 

[Toni]

At one point in time, I pretty much agreed with your momma. I was very young and had an idealistic/romantic bent of mind. I knew that I really wanted to have children, and probably a large family.

Funny how things turn out, innit?

I was in high school when the RvW decision was made. I was a voracious reader. I'd read zillions of opinions, across the spectrum of opinions, for a long time. In 1976, I graduated from 12 years of pricey Catholic Academy firmly believing that abortion was a private medical matter. Nobody's business but the woman and her doctor.

Then, a couple of years later, my own child became the issue. Over the course of around a month Judy and I came to the decision that abortion was our best option. We started looking for an abortion clinic(in a pre-internet world that was a tough one!). Then she miscarried. Our immediate problem was resolved.

But I couldn't stop thinking about what had actually happened. We, both of us, had enthusiastically consented to irresponsible sex. Mostly her really, I was a seriously closeted gay dude. But nevertheless, I was there and knew what I was doing.

I couldn't escape the reality. What we had done, up to the miscarriage, was choose sex, then decide to kill our kid because s/he didn't fit into our plans. That's the reality, ugly as it was. Over the course of another month or two, I became pretty hardcore anti-abortion. Believe it or not, the sharp edges of my then world view concerning reproductive morality have been ground off. I'm a whole lot more cognizant of the human reality. I'm a lot less judgemental than I used to be.

I went from Catholic Pro-Choice to non-theist Pro-Life.

Tom

Do I remember correctly that there was never a positive pregnancy test confirming the pregnancy?

Interesting that you see yourself as a lot less judgmental than you used to be. When you had skin in the game, you were enthusiastically looking for an abortion fir the girl. After she miscarried (if a pregnancy had existed), it was easy to change your mind about abortion.

It’s a nice touch that while you both were ‘enthusiastic’ it was ‘mostly her’ since you are gay, although closeted at the time.

This is the kind of dishonest post I've come to expect from you.

And feminist Wokesters in general.
Tom

How am I being dishonest?

Was there a positive pregnancy test?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

At one point in time, I pretty much agreed with your momma. I was very young and had an idealistic/romantic bent of mind. I knew that I really wanted to have children, and probably a large family.

Funny how things turn out, innit?

I was in high school when the RvW decision was made. I was a voracious reader. I'd read zillions of opinions, across the spectrum of opinions, for a long time. In 1976, I graduated from 12 years of pricey Catholic Academy firmly believing that abortion was a private medical matter. Nobody's business but the woman and her doctor.

Then, a couple of years later, my own child became the issue. Over the course of around a month Judy and I came to the decision that abortion was our best option. We started looking for an abortion clinic(in a pre-internet world that was a tough one!). Then she miscarried. Our immediate problem was resolved.

But I couldn't stop thinking about what had actually happened. We, both of us, had enthusiastically consented to irresponsible sex. Mostly her really, I was a seriously closeted gay dude. But nevertheless, I was there and knew what I was doing.

I couldn't escape the reality. What we had done, up to the miscarriage, was choose sex, then decide to kill our kid because s/he didn't fit into our plans. That's the reality, ugly as it was. Over the course of another month or two, I became pretty hardcore anti-abortion. Believe it or not, the sharp edges of my then world view concerning reproductive morality have been ground off. I'm a whole lot more cognizant of the human reality. I'm a lot less judgemental than I used to be.

I went from Catholic Pro-Choice to non-theist Pro-Life.

Tom

Do I remember correctly that there was never a positive pregnancy test confirming the pregnancy?

Interesting that you see yourself as a lot less judgmental than you used to be. When you had skin in the game, you were enthusiastically looking for an abortion fir the girl. After she miscarried (if a pregnancy had existed), it was easy to change your mind about abortion.

It’s a nice touch that while you both were ‘enthusiastic’ it was ‘mostly her’ since you are gay, although closeted at the time.

This is the kind of dishonest post I've come to expect from you.

And feminist Wokesters in general.
Tom

Her post was an accurate reflection of the points you made yourself. You just might lack the ability of self-reflection to actually see it.

You admit to being more judgmental now than you were... and you were more likely to use abortion because it was convenient when you needed it, and easier to be against it so much longer afterwards.

And then you did push sex responsibility on your wife... I mean word for word.