Roe v Wade is on deck

[Lion IRC]

The war was apparently entirely about slavery according to some people.

You mean the southerners?

No. I mean the people who opposed/supported slavery sufficiently to fight a war over that issue.

 

[Toni]

Have I been unclear about my desire to end abortion - the deliberate homicide of unborn humans?

so, you must then want to support the access to and even distribution of long-acting reversible contraceptives (such as IUDs) for women.

Yes, I'd even make it mandatory.

....if that's the only way to prevent 1 million abortions per year in the US

If there are that many women living in the 21st century, in the wealthiest country on earth, who for some reason are deliberately having unprotected sex, and are carelessly or foolishly unaware that they (biology101) might become pregnant, then prevention is definitely the best option.

As stated in previous posts these are demonstrably among the best ways to reduce abortions. Yes?

You need to ask that question to all those modern, independent, educated, women living in apparent ignorance of biology101.

It seems to me that THEY are the ones who aren't aware of this "best way" to prevent abortion.

All this 'my-body-my-choice' dogmatic ex cathedra preaching from the church of feminism should be dissected to see if these women actually do know what they are choosing to do.

You mean avoiding having a fertile male ejaculate anywhere near their vagina? Unfortunately women are not always able to avoid rape. Nor are they able to with 100% accuracy avoid pregnancy by utilizing any of the current forms of birth control. He’ll, I have a friend whose family regards him as a miracle because he was born after his mother had her tubes tied—a very rare event but it happens.

 

[pood]

That's right.
The war was apparently entirely about slavery according to some people.

You know perfectly well that I was referring to the south. Everyone has seen your reprhensible quote mine, and how you have now turned tail and run away from the thread that you polluted and derailed with your cherry-picking bullshit.

We saw your beliefs on that score completely demolished in the other thread.

It's good that you think your work there is complete.

You’re the one who ran away with your tail between your legs after you were caught out quote-mining. I’m still there. And still filling the thread with content about how Christians in the south trumpeted slavery as a positive good and Christians in the north parroted keeping the union together at all costs. Nothing in either region, especially among Christians, about ending slavery, as you know perfectly well.

ETA: this is off topic for this thread. Let Lion come back to the other thread so we can happily disassemble his disingenuous arguments some more.

 

[Lion IRC]

Have I been unclear about my desire to end abortion - the deliberate homicide of unborn humans?

so, you must then want to support the access to and even distribution of long-acting reversible contraceptives (such as IUDs) for women.

Yes, I'd even make it mandatory.

Well THAT'S certainly a hot take. "Hello, woman of child-bearing age! Here's your appointment to receive your mandatory contraception! And don't you dare give us any of that BS about 'choice,' because it's not your choice! Either you have this, or you have kids. Sorry, ladies, no freedom for you!"

Where did those quotation marks come from? I don't remember saying that.

And you snipped the really good polemical part of my quote. But that's fine because it gives me the invitation to repeat it for good measure. Thanks. Keep doing this please.

Yes, I'd make it mandatory "....if that's the only way to prevent 1 million abortions per year in the US

If there are that many women living in the 21st century, in the wealthiest country on earth, who for some reason are deliberately having unprotected sex, and are carelessly or foolishly unaware that they (biology101) might become pregnant, then prevention is definitely the best option."

 

[Rhea]

so, you must then want to support the access to and even distribution of long-acting reversible contraceptives (such as IUDs) for women.

Yes, I'd even make it mandatory.

Yikes! What kind of person wants to force all women to have mandatory contraceptives!

....if that's the only way to prevent 1 million abortions per year in the US

It’s not, as was clearly shown in the unequivocal data you were shown.
All it takes is removing the barriers to access; education, accessibility, affordability.
You didn’t even have to think those up, since I highlighted them and they they were noted as the major factors of the study.
You were spoon-fed the answer and you still barfed it up all over your shirt.

If there are that many women living in the 21st century, in the wealthiest country on earth, who for some reason are deliberately having unprotected sex, and are carelessly or foolishly unaware that they (biology101) might become pregnant,

I am happy for you that you live a life utterly unaware of the trials of being a woman on this planet. That poverty, poor parenting, lack of education, and yes, low intelligence are not things that cross your mind as life’s hurdles.

How wonderful for you. But how awful for the rest of humanity that you are blind to the causes of human suffering, and thereby ill-equipped to help relieve them.

then prevention is definitely the best option.

It’s always the best option, is it not? In unwanted pregnancy, pollution, religious indoctrination, crime, and workplace safety.

As stated in previous posts these are demonstrably among the best ways to reduce abortions. Yes?

You need to ask that question to all those modern, independent, educated, women living in apparent ignorance of biology101.

So this is curious. What makes you think that all of these women are modern? Or independent? Or educated? Or ever had access to a college biology course? And additionally financially solvent, or even willing partners?

Serious question. Why are modern, independent, educated women the only women that you consider helping?

It seems to me that THEY are the ones who aren't aware of this "best way" to prevent abortion.

Astoundingly astute, my friend. Indeed they are not. You must have read the part of the study that providing sexuality education was a necessary part of the reduction in abortions! Indeed, you may have noticed it in my list of tools to prevent pregnancy! You are a wizard of observation!

All this 'my-body-my-choice' dogmatic ex cathedra preaching from the church of feminism should be dissected to see if these women actually do know what they are choosing to do.

I feel like you didn’t read the study at all. You should. It’s very relevant and very important in your quest to reduce abortions.

Or maybe your understanding of women and the pressures they face is as woefully inadequate and shamefully shallow as you accuse their understanding of biology to be. You think that knowing biology is a substitute for knowing psychiatry, developmental psychology, and anthropology.

 

[abaddon]

The majority of Americans disagree with the abortion lobby's (my-body-my-choice) position that abortion should be legal on-demand for any reason at any time during the pregnancy. Most Americans, strictly speaking, are not pro choice.

Link

 

[Jarhyn]

Yes, I'd even make [contraceptives (such as IUDs) for women] mandatory.

If there are that many women... are carelessly or foolishly unaware that they (biology101) might become pregnant, then prevention is definitely the best option.

So, let's examine this for a minute.

The actual best way to prevent abortions is ongoing and structured sex education. This means teaching people effectively how and why pregnancy happens, and teaching people how and why to use birth control.

This means teaching people about their biology, and also teaching about their options. It means giving them terminology about sex, and not trying to convince them not to have sex through fear of disease or pregnancy.

It means really teaching kids about what sex is, from a social point of view as well as a biological one, because being able to recognize and "ride" the effects of hormones is very difficult, and people are always bad at it.

Another issue, though, is that mandatory birth control means the mandatory existence of a gatekeeper on the ability to become pregnant, and this too is problematic: it means some communities may be discriminated against in their desire to actually have kids by the majority population and invasions of bureaucracy and statehouses by racists (and it has been well document this happens).

You might see a pathway to end abortion, I see a pathway too easily leveraged to quiet genocide/ethnocide/____cide

The only answer here is to accept that SOME abortions will happen and that it is the role of education to prevent that.

 

[TomC]

Have I been unclear about my desire to end abortion -

Yes
Yes you have been very clear about that.

You don't care if it ends. You won't lift a finger to do so.

You are very concerned about having the ability to punish people. You want to smite those people. You don't care about ending it, you wanna smite those people.

That's how it looks to me. Feel free to give me a reason to believe something else.
Tom

 

[Ford]

Have I been unclear about my desire to end abortion - the deliberate homicide of unborn humans?

so, you must then want to support the access to and even distribution of long-acting reversible contraceptives (such as IUDs) for women.

Yes, I'd even make it mandatory.

Well THAT'S certainly a hot take. "Hello, woman of child-bearing age! Here's your appointment to receive your mandatory contraception! And don't you dare give us any of that BS about 'choice,' because it's not your choice! Either you have this, or you have kids. Sorry, ladies, no freedom for you!"

Where did those quotation marks come from? I don't remember saying that.

And you snipped the really good polemical part of my quote. But that's fine because it gives me the invitation to repeat it for good measure. Thanks. Keep doing this please.

Yes, I'd make it mandatory "....if that's the only way to prevent 1 million abortions per year in the US

If there are that many women living in the 21st century, in the wealthiest country on earth, who for some reason are deliberately having unprotected sex, and are carelessly or foolishly unaware that they (biology101) might become pregnant, then prevention is definitely the best option."

I "snipped" it because it is irrelevant. You want to remove any and all choice from women, and your tarted-up "polemical part" can't hide that.

You want to enforce prevention on women, full stop. And should that prevention fail, you want to force them to carry to term. Would you like to strap them to a table in a prison for both procedures as well?

Of course you would. Because "...if that's the only way to prevent 1 million abortions...."

 

[Rhea]

You want to enforce prevention on women, full stop. And should that prevention fail, you want to force them to carry to term. Would you like to strap them to a table in a prison for both procedures as well?

Of course you do. Because "...if that's the only way to prevent 1 million abortions...."

Despite being handed a different solution on a silver platter. Smack that platter to the ground and shout how hungry he is.

 

[Lion IRC]

You mean avoiding having a fertile male ejaculate anywhere near their vagina? Unfortunately women are not always able to avoid rape.

OK. Lets ban all abortions except for rape pregnancy.


YAY! Smiley face.
That will eliminate 99% of abortions.

Sad face.
Unfortunate that there will still be two victims of rape. The mother and the baby who will never get to know their mother and have a chance at life.

Nor are they able to with 100% accuracy avoid pregnancy by utilizing any of the current forms of birth control.

If birth control is 100% effective for 99% of women I'm surprised there's over a million abortions in America per year.

 

[ZiprHead]

The majority of Americans disagree with the abortion lobby's (my-body-my-choice) position that abortion should be legal on-demand for any reason at any time during the pregnancy. Most Americans, strictly speaking, are not pro choice.

If you're going to make your own micro definitions taht would be true. But actually it's bullshit.

 

[ZiprHead]

OK. Lets ban all abortions except for rape pregnancy.

So you're okay with killing fetuses that come from rape. Are those fetuses less human than the others?

 

[TomC]

OK. Lets ban all abortions except for rape pregnancy.

My own mom would have died from that.

I'm trying not to be as viciously honest as I have a tendency to be, because it gets me in trouble with the staff.
But trust me when I say, Rhea and company are protecting you from me.
Tom

 

[Lion IRC]

so, you must then want to support the access to and even distribution of long-acting reversible contraceptives (such as IUDs) for women.

Yes, I'd even make it mandatory.

Yikes! What kind of person wants to force all women to have mandatory contraceptives!

Not all women.
Just the ones who are ignorant of biology101 and who say they don't want to get pregnant or have an abortion.

....if that's the only way to prevent 1 million abortions per year in the US

It’s not, as was clearly shown in the unequivocal data you were shown.

I was told it is demonstrably one of the best ways to avoid and prevent abortion.

All it takes is removing the barriers to access; education, accessibility, affordability.

If some women are unable to stop themselves from getting pregnant and having abortions they need mandatory controls.

If there are that many women living in the 21st century, in the wealthiest country on earth, who for some reason are deliberately having unprotected sex, and are carelessly or foolishly unaware that they (biology101) might become pregnant,

I am happy for you that you live a life utterly unaware of the trials of being a woman on this planet.

Are you agreeing with me that there ARE huge numbers of women living in the 21st century, in the wealthiest country on earth, who for some reason are deliberately having unprotected sex, and are carelessly or foolishly unaware that they (biology101) might become pregnant?

That poverty, poor parenting, lack of education, and yes, low intelligence are not things that cross your mind as life’s hurdles.

If there are women who are unable to stop themselves from getting pregnant and having abortions then, for their own benefit, they need mandatory controls on their behaviour.

...assuming they don't want to get pregnant and have abortions. (Nobody wants to have an abortion - am I right?)

then prevention is definitely the best option.

It’s always the best option, is it not?

Yes. Assuming you want to end all abortions.
Dont get pregnant. No abortion.

Im assuming the my-body-my-choice dogma is founded on the notion that women understand biology.

If they don't, then there's a strong case for mandatory preventive measures. Measures which are "demonstrably" the best way to prevent abortion.

As stated in previous posts these are demonstrably among the best ways to reduce abortions. Yes?

You need to ask that question to all those modern, independent, educated, women living in apparent ignorance of biology101.

So this is curious. What makes you think that all of these women are modern? Or independent? Or educated? Or ever had access to a college biology course? And additionally financially solvent, or even willing partners?

If they arent able to prevent themselves getting pregnant theres a strong case for mandatory interventions on their behalf and in their own interest.

Serious question. Why are modern, independent, educated women the only women that you consider helping?

I dont think that.
So you'll have to find someone who does if thats an argument youre looking for.
(see pood? THATS how you deal with someone you think might be taking you out of context or not knowing what you're actually trying to say.)

It seems to me that THEY are the ones who aren't aware of this "best way" to prevent abortion.

Astoundingly astute, my friend. Indeed they are not.

Great. We agree.
Thats progress.

You must have read the part of the study that providing sexuality education was a necessary part of the reduction in abortions!

Sure.
If theres uneducated women who aren't aware of how to avoid pregnancy and abortion then theres a strong case for mandatory interventions on their behalf and in their own interest. (But I repeat myself.)

Indeed, you may have noticed it in my list of tools to prevent pregnancy! You are a wizard of observation!

Yep. I read people's posts.
And when they use terms like demonstrably and entirely I don't think they mean something different.

Theres no nuance or context to the plainly obvious fact that if you dont want to have an abortion, you should avoid getting pregnant.

All this 'my-body-my-choice' dogmatic ex cathedra preaching from the church of feminism should be dissected to see if these women actually do know what they are choosing to do.

I feel like you didn’t read the study at all. You should. It’s very relevant and very important in your quest to reduce abortions.

Im not sure what you think I'm missing.

Saying....I dont feel like you read the study isn't exactly pinpointing where you think I'm not getting the message that there's lots of things women can do to avoid getting pregnant and having an UNWANTED abortion.

Or maybe your understanding of women and the pressures they face is as woefully inadequate and shamefully shallow as you accuse their understanding of biology to be.

I have spent the last few decades being indoctrinated by the received wisdom that women are equal to men and don't need old-fashioned patriarchal care and nurturing. I take it as an article of faith that women DO know how to avoid pregnancy and abortion.

But if there's a case for mandatory interventions to protect women unable to grasp or manage the basics of becoming pregnant, I'm open-minded.

You think that knowing biology is a substitute for knowing psychiatry, developmental psychology, and anthropology.

I wasn't aware that these were necessary/sufficient requirements to avoid unwanted abortions or that men were the only people who had such an educational advantage in theses fields.

Whether or not sufficient awareness of psychiatry, developmental psychology, anthropology, evolutionary biology, critical gender theory, political science, etc are necessary to avoid getting pregnant might be an interesting discussion but let's just start with women who confuse and conflate the words abortion and contraception.

 

[Lion IRC]

OK. Lets ban all abortions except for rape pregnancy.

So you're okay with killing fetuses that come from rape. Are those fetuses less human than the others?

No. I'm opposed to all abortion but I'm willing to make a deal if it eliminates 99% of abortions.

Are you authorized by the abortion lobby to negotiate that deal.

 

[Lion IRC]

OK. Lets ban all abortions except for rape pregnancy.

My own mom would have died from that.

I'm talking about elective abortions.
If an abortion is medically necessary in cases where you can either save only the mother or only the unborn baby, this is an unavoidable situation and morally neutral.

I'm trying not to be as viciously honest as I have a tendency to be, because it gets me in trouble with the staff.

The hospital staff?
I dont understand.

But trust me when I say, Rhea and company are protecting you from me.
Tom

If you are so emotionally triggered as to think I am a threat to you and you need protection from me, you should protect yourself and put me on ignore.

 

[Ford]

If some women are unable to stop themselves from getting pregnant and having abortions they need mandatory controls.

So it's about control, then. Those emotional, ignorant women-folk need to be controlled.

Got it.

 

[Lion IRC]

If some women are unable to stop themselves from getting pregnant and having abortions they need mandatory controls.

So it's about control, then.

Well if they cant control themselves what other alternative is there?

They dont want to get pregnant and they certainly don't want to have an abortion - NOBODY wants to have an abortion. Right?

So who is going to help them if they can't stop themselves?

Those emotional, ignorant women-folk need to be controlled.

Got it.

I'm glad you get it. Cheers.

Help me persuade others that there are a million abortions a year in America which (presumably) could have been avoided if only someone would intervene to help these women avoid getting pregnant and having a completely avoidable abortion.

 

[Ford]

If some women are unable to stop themselves from getting pregnant and having abortions they need mandatory controls.

So it's about control, then.

Well if they cant control themselves what other alternative is there?

They dont want to get pregnant and they certainly don't want to have an abortion - NOBODY wants to have an abortion. Right?

So who is going to help them if they can't stop themselves?

Well let's go down your list of questions. The answer to your first question is (apparently) that they must be subjugated to your will.

Second question. No, YOU don't want them to have an abortion. In fact, you want complete control over their reproduction. YOU tell them when to have a child, when to have sex, how to have it, and YOU decide what consequences a woman must suffer for daring to do so.

Third question. Again, you've appointed yourself the final arbiter for all decisions that a woman might have the temerity to attempt to make for herself.

What right do you have to make all these decisions for a woman? Are you trying to be more like Diddy?