Romantic commitments and marriages

[Loren Pechtel]

Some observations:

1) The data on how long marriages last is misleading as the data is very unevenly distributed. Some people have many marriages, many have only one.

2) In general I feel marriage is for when you've decided to have children. Until then you should only be tied by the heartstrings. Sometimes there are other factors, though--we married so she could stay.

3) There is considerable value in having a long term partner you can really trust. You'll never get that from a series of short term relationships.

 

[ruby sparks]

I think that's a stereotype that is given more weight than most people think.

Speaking for ourselves, on our first night at home with all of the kids officially out of the house (at least for that time being): we ate bad junk food and sat on the couch, watching tv while we ate, laughing at the indulgence of it--we would NEVER have allowed this when even our college aged kids were home for holidays.

Being on your own together for the first time in a couple of decades or more does mean a shift in the relationship. For us, it was more gradual as we had kids living locally with varying schedules so we never knew when someone would just pop in. So, spontaneous sex in the middle of the living room was not necessarily immediately on the menu. Although we were cognizant that if we DID just happen to be surprised by a newly minted adult stopping by to raid the fridge or say hello, we would very quickly no longer have to worry about what would happen if the kids caught us--we valued having the kids stop by unannounced so we practiced restraint.

Right now, our constraints are more centered around our elderly dog. Even stay at home hubby is talking about spontaneous trips when we are also canine free....

I will admit that we've adopted a bigger habit of having the tv on than I think we should, tho.

Yes, it's a stereotype, so as such maybe it's overused. I think most couples who experience it (the empty nest phase) do find it at least different, and often probably a bit of a challenge perhaps, but as you say, many will find that it's only something that requires adjustments and indeed for many people, it may be a good and liberating experience and a chance to get to know each other again and recover the exclusivity that was there in the yers BC (Before Children). Actually, that's ideally how I'd like it to turn out. I'm not so sure about my wife. She seems to sometimes hanker for being without me, to only have several poodles, a quieter life and regular visits from the kids, unfortunately (finding a new man is not on her list of priorities, though I'm sure that by the same token it could happen for her). And ultimately, if that's what she wants, I'm not going to stand in her way.

 

[ruby sparks]

It is hard. If I had my way (and money enough to make it happen), I would definitely like a small lakeside home, with room to do a little gardening and no neighbors close by--but close enough to run for groceries or to stop for cups of coffee, etc. I like my alone time but I also need my social time. Hubby, on the other hand, would rather stay put or move into a more urban area. Just thinking about living in a city during warm weather months makes me feel so claustrophobic I can barely write about it. It's not the people: it's the concrete and the noise. I think the people are a bonus as long as I don't have to share a roadway with them. Should we ever strike it rich, though, I think that we could manage to have both: a city home and a lake home. I'm sure I'd spend more time at the lake than he would but that would work, as well. I like having him about but I am not afraid to be on my own for stretches of time, either.

What I am hoping to do is to be able to rent a place at the lake for longer term--at month, at least, summers. He can come when he wants, and go back home when he's done with country life. For myself: I love looking at the water, and I love the forested landscape and small towns as well.

Maybe something like that would be possible for you and your wife: splitting time between city and country?

That's one of the ways it might play out, for us. It has been talked about. Imo, it's a potentially very good option, because having two smaller homes rather than sharing one bigger one would allow us to see if we want to stay married, but the fallback is that if we do, the two smaller homes, each in a place that the other likes but giving both the chance to mix and match, would still work, even if we both ended up living and sleeping in the same one most of the time and went to each home alternatively (weekdays in the city, weekends in the country at the sea etc for example) together.

Obviously it's more expensive though, to live that way, and should it come to pass that we divorce, both of us would want enough space so that grown up children could stay over when visiting.

One way or the other I think we'll work it out. One good thing is that we will not be enemies about it. At the moment, as I said, we're in a sort of enforced limbo, because the housing market is flat as a pancake, partly due to Brexit. But at least this has given us both a bit of breathing space to think and talk and decide what we will do when we do sell, which we will be doing soon no matter what, because we need to downsize for several reasons (for one thing, we have 2 acres of ground that I will not be able to keep maintaining as I get into my 60's). Most importantly perhaps, it has given me time to try to convince her that staying with me is the best option. Lol. I'm working on it and I'm optimistic.

It sounds like the two homes thing would work well for you, and for many couples who are married and staying that way. As you say, it does depend on being able to afford it (or afford it and not be financially stretched or be prevented from doing other nice activities). One thing about NI is that it is so small and there is so much coastline that it would be possible to find a compromise solution where one could be both at the seaside, in a fairly rural setting, and still be only 15-20 minutes by public transport or car from the hubbub of the city centre (Belfast being pretty small and compact too, but with a lively and thriving urban centre).

 

[ruby sparks]

Yea I tend to think that supportive, truly happy relationships aren't really that common. Biology has no need for affection, just that offspring are raised into adulthood. People spend their twenties trying tirelessly to get laid, and eventually marriage/children just happen. Whatever happens after that is an insignificant detail.

Mostly, I think the problem comes down to self awareness and communication. If you don't understand the ways your partner quietly resents you, and they have no way to communicate it to you then.. ? So often you get two partners together, doing dumb shit they don't even realize they're doing, and once the relationship becomes too inconvenient it just falls apart.

Very true indeed. I myself am a big fan of relationship counselling. But what I often hear is that only one partner is up for that and the other isn't, usually the one who isn't seems to be the man, but definitely not always.

I will add one more thought. The reason I emphasised that you were seeing your parents' relationship from your pov is that sometimes (and of course I'm not saying this is true in your case) there can still be a mutual bond between parents that kids don't see. I think this was true of my parents, who had a truly awful marriage as far as could be seen, and my dad was the typical selfish male and my mum was the typical female giver.

I remember the moment when I was in therapy that my therapist suggested to me that perhaps my parents' relationship was not quite as bad as I thought. In my case, I may have had particular psychological reasons for not seeing that aspect of their relationship.

Though at the same time, that is only a nuance, even if possibly a very important one, and there is no doubt their marriage was in many ways bad, and that had they lived today, in a place where divorce was possible and even relatively easy (it wasn't even legally possible in Ireland in those days, except in extreme cases) they might not have stuck it out. And financially, it would have been a disaster for my mum if she divorced.

I will freely admit that one of the reasons I am sticking it out is fear of change. I don't do flux and uncertainty particularly well. I like stability. This isn't of course a particularly good or rational reason to stick it out, and perhaps even 'cling on' would be a better phrase, but it is a reason nonetheless, to do with my psychology and my insecurities. In my heart, I know it's irrational in many ways. I similarly stuck it out in a job that I did not enjoy (because of the boss, not the work itself) for decades, and when I lost that, one of my worst fears was realised, but it has very much turned out to be a change for the better.

 

[ruby sparks]

My current marriage has lasted almost forty years and we are still madly in love with each other. While my husband was a fantastic step dad, we decided not to have any children ourselves. We still have a fantastic sex life, which not everyone does at our age. I think of it like two dance partners that have learned the right steps and with each passing year the performance gets better. But, I do know people in sexless marriages that seem happy. Friendship is the most important thing in a successful marriage. We are best friends as well as lovers, so we have a lot going for us. We are both atheists, both dog lovers, both home bodies who no longer enjoy travel, both liberals politically, both New York Times and Washington Post junkies who love to discuss politics all day long. Plus, while my ex wasn't at all affectionate, my current husband is very affectionate, which is something that I love. We have so much in common that I can't imagine finding someone more compatible. We can argue without holding a grudge. Now that we are both retired, we spend most of our time together and we're never bored.

As I'm sure you appreciate, the two of you are very lucky to have found each other, second time around in your case. And I'm also sure it isn't all just luck, that you are both good at maintaining things too. And it's always great to hear about such marriages. And I'm sure it's not always plain sailing, and that the future holds uncertainties (vis a vis one of you being left without the other) but it sounds pretty good in compatibility terms. And of course it is well known that both reciprocated affection and a healthy and regular sex life can strengthen (or maintain) a loving relationship and the emotional bonds involved.

I agree with all the other things you said too.

 

[Brian63]

ruby,

You had mentioned looking into living separately from each other, even if still romantically involved with each other. That would have both benefits and costs of course, emotionally and financially. Another option is just taking a very brief break away from living in the same household. Couples take vacations together to get away from their constant work-life for example. When a couple gets tired of being in the same building together, they could also just take a very brief 1-week or 2-week, etc. vacation where either one goes to a hotel. They may start to miss the other one more and so be happier upon return, or may find that they find the solitude very comfortable. You could get a better idea of what fits you best without making a huge emotional and financial upheaval of your lives, just take brief breaks from each other once in a while.

 

[ruby sparks]

ruby,

You had mentioned looking into living separately from each other, even if still romantically involved with each other. That would have both benefits and costs of course, emotionally and financially. Another option is just taking a very brief break away from living in the same household. Couples take vacations together to get away from their constant work-life for example. When a couple gets tired of being in the same building together, they could also just take a very brief 1-week or 2-week, etc. vacation where either one goes to a hotel. They may start to miss the other one more and so be happier upon return, or may find that they find the solitude very comfortable. You could get a better idea of what fits you best without making a huge emotional and financial upheaval of your lives, just take brief breaks from each other once in a while.

Yeah. I guess one reason we haven't done that is that living in a hotel or rented accommodation, quite apart from the expense, doesn't really work for either of us (I for example need access to my home office and all the equipment) and long vacations, while possible, yes, aren't that feasible (again, for me, as I get few holidays from work, which is typical of the self-employed). And the home place needs constant daily attention, not least because we also run a small pet kennelling business. But point taken and thank you for the suggestion. I think the real eventual but postponed possibility of selling and buying two places, although it has proved not possible so far, has been our number 1 hypothetical option at the expense of exploring others, and part of the recent limbo and the inertia. You may also have grasped by now that of the two of us, I am currently the one strongly in favour of not splitting. At this time at least.

We do take (and enjoy) breaks away from each other. She's in Berlin as I write, for about 5 days (staffing a school trip). I regularly travel to 3-day weekends away to play in basketball tournaments. I'm just back from Glasgow. Next week (school Easter holidays) she's taking the 'kids' and the poodles to a seaside cottage, again for about 5 days.

But, I think your suggestion is generally a good idea for a lot of people. And possibly even me/us. I should give it more consideration.

Because I'm starting to feel that in my posts I'm making the topic about me, I'm going to ask you about your own story (or stories). If you are ok with sharing I mean.

 

[Brian63]

You are a nice guy and it is a pleasure to chat with you, and about you.

Since you ask though, my own self-assessment for my reasons for the views that I hold---

I have never told anyone all this below, either in person or on the internet, but when I was a boy growing up I realized that I was developing very interests from my mom. She was (and still is) a very kind person, but also very stereotypical and uninteresting and even annoying in terms of personality. Her hobbies are entirely focused on cooking/baking and sewing/quilting, nothing unique or abstract or thought-provoking. When I was young I was incredibly bored by her interests, and was loving science (especially astronomy). She frankly just bored the hell out of me to be around, not someone who I would be friends with, much less want to be married to. Dad was much more interesting. So from an early point I looked at my mom and dad's marriage and realized "If this is what it means to be married, then I do not want to be married." She turned me off to the idea of being married.

Later in life (late teens or early 20's, I forget) when I first started to date, that was still a residual attitude in the back of my mind. Why would I want to promise now to always being in a relationship with a specific individual for all of my life? Just for the sake of being able to carry the title of "married" even though I may get tired of being married to that particular woman? Even before the leap of marriage---why should I commit to being in an exclusive relationship with one woman, when at some later point I may prefer to be in an exclusive relationship with a different woman who I meet? If the latter situation arose, then I would just break off the first relationship and pursue the second. Then what was the point of making the commitment in the first place? It really did not amount to anything, except making it harder (emotionally) to leave even if I wanted to. I was uncomfortable thinking such thoughts and never expressed them to anyone else, because they seemed so against-the-norms, and so there was probably something wrong with me for thinking them. They seemed so obvious to me though. So I was always in a state of mental limbo, quietly, even through the years while I was either in a relationship with a woman or seeking to be in a relationship with a woman.

At one point a particular girlfriend and I split, and I decided to act on my previous hunch and just take a break from dating altogether, and try being single again. Find out who I am individually and what my personality is, rather than feeling as if I had to be one half of a couple and sacrificing my interests to be with her (one evening she wanted to go to some restaurant, and I really wanted to go see some particular movie that was opening, and she won our disagreement. That was a moment of realization that this was not what I wanted to be routinely doing). Being single felt refreshing, and I am still attracted to women but less to the idea of being in a relationship with women where at some point we vow that we will always be together, even if our feelings later change and we do not want to be together. Making such a commitment seems rather vapid, and against what is best for us. If a couple is in a long-term relationship, it would be better if it was NOT because 25 years ago they made the legal promise to forever in the future be together even if they may be unhappy, but that it was always more of a repeating short-term realization that "I want to be with Peter/Nancy right now more than I want to NOT be with him/her." The option to leave though would always be on the table. I would not want a woman to feel trapped in a relationship me, and if I really wanted what is best for her then I would always want to make it easy for her to leave if she wanted out. I would always want to be able to leave easily too, if I desired that.

 

[ruby sparks]

Thanks.

I will read that and get back to you later today. Right now I have to try to summon the energy to go out and mow a very big lawn.

 

[rousseau]

Yea I tend to think that supportive, truly happy relationships aren't really that common. Biology has no need for affection, just that offspring are raised into adulthood. People spend their twenties trying tirelessly to get laid, and eventually marriage/children just happen. Whatever happens after that is an insignificant detail.

Mostly, I think the problem comes down to self awareness and communication. If you don't understand the ways your partner quietly resents you, and they have no way to communicate it to you then.. ? So often you get two partners together, doing dumb shit they don't even realize they're doing, and once the relationship becomes too inconvenient it just falls apart.

Very true indeed. I myself am a big fan of relationship counselling. But what I often hear is that only one partner is up for that and the other isn't, usually the one who isn't seems to be the man, but definitely not always.

I will add one more thought. The reason I emphasised that you were seeing your parents' relationship from your pov is that sometimes (and of course I'm not saying this is true in your case) there can still be a mutual bond between parents that kids don't see. I think this was true of my parents, who had a truly awful marriage as far as could be seen, and my dad was the typical selfish male and my mum was the typical female giver.

I remember the moment when I was in therapy that my therapist suggested to me that perhaps my parents' relationship was not quite as bad as I thought. In my case, I may have had particular psychological reasons for not seeing that aspect of their relationship.

Though at the same time, that is only a nuance, even if possibly a very important one, and there is no doubt their marriage was in many ways bad, and that had they lived today, in a place where divorce was possible and even relatively easy (it wasn't even legally possible in Ireland in those days, except in extreme cases) they might not have stuck it out. And financially, it would have been a disaster for my mum if she divorced.

I will freely admit that one of the reasons I am sticking it out is fear of change. I don't do flux and uncertainty particularly well. I like stability. This isn't of course a particularly good or rational reason to stick it out, and perhaps even 'cling on' would be a better phrase, but it is a reason nonetheless, to do with my psychology and my insecurities. In my heart, I know it's irrational in many ways. I similarly stuck it out in a job that I did not enjoy (because of the boss, not the work itself) for decades, and when I lost that, one of my worst fears was realised, but it has very much turned out to be a change for the better.

I think you're right there with my parents. They both very much annoy each other, but after being together just shy of 40 years there is a kind of comfort and bond there. And the relationship doesn't have so much resentment that it doesn't work.

 

[ruby sparks]

You are a nice guy and it is a pleasure to chat with you, and about you.

Since you ask though, my own self-assessment for my reasons for the views that I hold---

I have never told anyone all this below, either in person or on the internet, but when I was a boy growing up I realized that I was developing very interests from my mom. She was (and still is) a very kind person, but also very stereotypical and uninteresting and even annoying in terms of personality. Her hobbies are entirely focused on cooking/baking and sewing/quilting, nothing unique or abstract or thought-provoking. When I was young I was incredibly bored by her interests, and was loving science (especially astronomy). She frankly just bored the hell out of me to be around, not someone who I would be friends with, much less want to be married to. Dad was much more interesting. So from an early point I looked at my mom and dad's marriage and realized "If this is what it means to be married, then I do not want to be married." She turned me off to the idea of being married.

Later in life (late teens or early 20's, I forget) when I first started to date, that was still a residual attitude in the back of my mind. Why would I want to promise now to always being in a relationship with a specific individual for all of my life? Just for the sake of being able to carry the title of "married" even though I may get tired of being married to that particular woman? Even before the leap of marriage---why should I commit to being in an exclusive relationship with one woman, when at some later point I may prefer to be in an exclusive relationship with a different woman who I meet? If the latter situation arose, then I would just break off the first relationship and pursue the second. Then what was the point of making the commitment in the first place? It really did not amount to anything, except making it harder (emotionally) to leave even if I wanted to. I was uncomfortable thinking such thoughts and never expressed them to anyone else, because they seemed so against-the-norms, and so there was probably something wrong with me for thinking them. They seemed so obvious to me though. So I was always in a state of mental limbo, quietly, even through the years while I was either in a relationship with a woman or seeking to be in a relationship with a woman.

At one point a particular girlfriend and I split, and I decided to act on my previous hunch and just take a break from dating altogether, and try being single again. Find out who I am individually and what my personality is, rather than feeling as if I had to be one half of a couple and sacrificing my interests to be with her (one evening she wanted to go to some restaurant, and I really wanted to go see some particular movie that was opening, and she won our disagreement. That was a moment of realization that this was not what I wanted to be routinely doing). Being single felt refreshing, and I am still attracted to women but less to the idea of being in a relationship with women where at some point we vow that we will always be together, even if our feelings later change and we do not want to be together. Making such a commitment seems rather vapid, and against what is best for us. If a couple is in a long-term relationship, it would be better if it was NOT because 25 years ago they made the legal promise to forever in the future be together even if they may be unhappy, but that it was always more of a repeating short-term realization that "I want to be with Peter/Nancy right now more than I want to NOT be with him/her." The option to leave though would always be on the table. I would not want a woman to feel trapped in a relationship me, and if I really wanted what is best for her then I would always want to make it easy for her to leave if she wanted out. I would always want to be able to leave easily too, if I desired that.

Thanks. That all makes a lot of sense. Yes, your feelings are somewhat against norms, but not that unusual, especially nowadays, and there is certainly nothing at all wrong with them, though it was natural for you to have thought that. Hopefully you either don't still think it or at least think it much less.

As to your parents marriage, I think it's fair to say that most people's views on relationships are coloured by the ones they inhabited, experienced or witnessed as a child.

It sort of sounds as if you've managed to find the right place and the right approach for you. Which is fab. Yes, you are right, it is not necessarily a good thing to feel as if one needs to be one half of a couple (and I speak as someone who is probably addicted to the idea, lol, and might benefit from a detox).

I would only add that saying that staying in or being in a long relationship, even an imperfect one, even perhaps a bad one, is bad for us compared to being in a situation where we are completely free and unencumbered regarding commitment or promise, is a personal viewpoint. Odd as it may seem, some people may in fact be happier with the former. I guess it's complicated. Most marriages, including mine, have benefits and disadvantages at the same time. That said, I am a bit suspicious of polls that seem to show that married people are, on average, happier. I once read that such polls do not typically include a rather large and growing demographic, of people who are not married, but had been (had gotten divorced). If those people's views on the happiness of being married were included in the data on the 'what it's like to be married' side of the tally, I'm not sure it would give the same results.

Getting back to your other, related point about financial incentives for marriage and/or having children, as I said, I am at the end of the day not in favour of either, on balance (despite having to admit we benefitted from both) though as I said I can understand some of the reasons. And indeed some of the reasons are arguably not even good ones (though equally some are). Some of the ones that are arguably not good are to do with maintaining traditions more or less for the sake of maintaining traditions, and of course most of these traditions come from a time when things were less gender neutral than today and often involved patriarchal attitudes.

Singledom (if that's the right word for being single) has tended to be somewhat frowned upon, especially for women, but for men also. There's no good, rational reason for that at all, imo, especially nowadays when for example women in most developed countries can be financially independent. And as far as I can tell, singledom is now becoming much more acceptable. As is not having children. Which imo is a good thing, because it extends free choices.

 

[Toni]

You are a nice guy and it is a pleasure to chat with you, and about you.

Since you ask though, my own self-assessment for my reasons for the views that I hold---

I have never told anyone all this below, either in person or on the internet, but when I was a boy growing up I realized that I was developing very interests from my mom. She was (and still is) a very kind person, but also very stereotypical and uninteresting and even annoying in terms of personality. Her hobbies are entirely focused on cooking/baking and sewing/quilting, nothing unique or abstract or thought-provoking. When I was young I was incredibly bored by her interests, and was loving science (especially astronomy). She frankly just bored the hell out of me to be around, not someone who I would be friends with, much less want to be married to. Dad was much more interesting. So from an early point I looked at my mom and dad's marriage and realized "If this is what it means to be married, then I do not want to be married." She turned me off to the idea of being married.

Later in life (late teens or early 20's, I forget) when I first started to date, that was still a residual attitude in the back of my mind. Why would I want to promise now to always being in a relationship with a specific individual for all of my life? Just for the sake of being able to carry the title of "married" even though I may get tired of being married to that particular woman? Even before the leap of marriage---why should I commit to being in an exclusive relationship with one woman, when at some later point I may prefer to be in an exclusive relationship with a different woman who I meet? If the latter situation arose, then I would just break off the first relationship and pursue the second. Then what was the point of making the commitment in the first place? It really did not amount to anything, except making it harder (emotionally) to leave even if I wanted to. I was uncomfortable thinking such thoughts and never expressed them to anyone else, because they seemed so against-the-norms, and so there was probably something wrong with me for thinking them. They seemed so obvious to me though. So I was always in a state of mental limbo, quietly, even through the years while I was either in a relationship with a woman or seeking to be in a relationship with a woman.

At one point a particular girlfriend and I split, and I decided to act on my previous hunch and just take a break from dating altogether, and try being single again. Find out who I am individually and what my personality is, rather than feeling as if I had to be one half of a couple and sacrificing my interests to be with her (one evening she wanted to go to some restaurant, and I really wanted to go see some particular movie that was opening, and she won our disagreement. That was a moment of realization that this was not what I wanted to be routinely doing). Being single felt refreshing, and I am still attracted to women but less to the idea of being in a relationship with women where at some point we vow that we will always be together, even if our feelings later change and we do not want to be together. Making such a commitment seems rather vapid, and against what is best for us. If a couple is in a long-term relationship, it would be better if it was NOT because 25 years ago they made the legal promise to forever in the future be together even if they may be unhappy, but that it was always more of a repeating short-term realization that "I want to be with Peter/Nancy right now more than I want to NOT be with him/her." The option to leave though would always be on the table. I would not want a woman to feel trapped in a relationship me, and if I really wanted what is best for her then I would always want to make it easy for her to leave if she wanted out. I would always want to be able to leave easily too, if I desired that.

Thanks. That all makes a lot of sense. Yes, your feelings are somewhat against norms, but not that unusual, especially nowadays, and there is certainly nothing at all wrong with them, though it was natural for you to have thought that. Hopefully you either don't still think it or at least think it much less.

As to your parents marriage, I think it's fair to say that most people's views on relationships are coloured by the ones they inhabited, experienced or witnessed as a child.

It sort of sounds as if you've managed to find the right place and the right approach for you. Which is fab. Yes, you are right, it is not necessarily a good thing to feel as if one needs to be one half of a couple (and I speak as someone who is probably addicted to the idea, lol, and might benefit from a detox).

I would only add that saying that staying in or being in a long relationship, even an imperfect one, even perhaps a bad one, is bad for us compared to being in a situation where we are completely free and unencumbered regarding commitment or promise, is a personal viewpoint. Odd as it may seem, some people may in fact be happier with the former. I guess it's complicated. Most marriages, including mine, have benefits and disadvantages at the same time. That said, I am a bit suspicious of polls that seem to show that married people are, on average, happier. I once read that such polls do not typically include a rather large and growing demographic, of people who are not married, but had been (had gotten divorced). If those people's views on the happiness of being married were included in the data on the 'what it's like to be married' side of the tally, I'm not sure it would give the same results.

Getting back to your other, related point about financial incentives for marriage and/or having children, as I said, I am at the end of the day not in favour of either, on balance (despite having to admit we benefitted from both) though as I said I can understand some of the reasons. And indeed some of the reasons are arguably not even good ones (though equally some are). Some of the ones that are arguably not good are to do with maintaining traditions more or less for the sake of maintaining traditions, and of course most of these traditions come from a time when things were less gender neutral than today and often involved patriarchal attitudes.

Singledom (if that's the right word for being single) has tended to be somewhat frowned upon, especially for women, but for men also. There's no good, rational reason for that at all, imo, especially nowadays when for example women in most developed countries can be financially independent. And as far as I can tell, singledom is now becoming much more acceptable. As is not having children. Which imo is a good thing, because it extends free choices.

I wonder if polls that say married people are happier aren't biased. It could be the case that people who are happier--or happier being married are married. Nowadays, it isn't that difficult to get a divorce in most places. It's uglier if kids are involved or if there are a lot of financial entanglements such as co-owning a business or a lot of wealth involved. So, if you are not happy in your marriage, it's easy enough to get out of it.

If you are unhappy, I think it is harder to find/establish a stable relationship. If you are unhappy with your single state, I think that it is harder to change your single state than it is to be divorced.

Here's my unsolicited advice: Married or not, partnered up or not: Don't let your happiness depend on what someone else does or does not do. It's a losing game, every time. Worse, it cheats you of finding a core of resilience, of the capacity for being happy or at least content within yourself. I think that happiness is not dependent on externalities, barring terrible circumstances. But even in the depths of terrible things like war and disease, people can find small ways to feel joy, even if only fleetingly. I also think it's a muscle: it gets stronger the more you work at it.

I hated my job and I hated the long commute which was a huge time suck when the weather was good and much worse in bad weather. But the commute was actually beautiful, usually involved little traffic and often involved seeing some wildlife and sunrises and sunsets (I worked long hours). I loved the winding hills, the farmlands, the small towns. The early morning light. Oh, not every day but there were plenty of days when I absolutely dreaded the coming work day and on my way in, I made a special point to notice the early morning sunlight and the way it fell on the hills and fields, to look for hawks or pheasants, to notice the way the sky looked, if trees were starting to bud again or to change color. It actually made a huge difference in how I felt for the whole day. And it became a habit: to look for something to see the beauty in or to smile about. I am so not a morning person but there were many days when the early morning light is what got me through my work day.

 

[ruby sparks]

I wonder if polls that say married people are happier aren't biased. It could be the case that people who are happier--or happier being married are married. Nowadays, it isn't that difficult to get a divorce in most places. It's uglier if kids are involved or if there are a lot of financial entanglements such as co-owning a business or a lot of wealth involved. So, if you are not happy in your marriage, it's easy enough to get out of it.

If you are unhappy, I think it is harder to find/establish a stable relationship. If you are unhappy with your single state, I think that it is harder to change your single state than it is to be divorced.

Here's my unsolicited advice: Married or not, partnered up or not: Don't let your happiness depend on what someone else does or does not do. It's a losing game, every time. Worse, it cheats you of finding a core of resilience, of the capacity for being happy or at least content within yourself. I think that happiness is not dependent on externalities, barring terrible circumstances. But even in the depths of terrible things like war and disease, people can find small ways to feel joy, even if only fleetingly. I also think it's a muscle: it gets stronger the more you work at it.

I hated my job and I hated the long commute which was a huge time suck when the weather was good and much worse in bad weather. But the commute was actually beautiful, usually involved little traffic and often involved seeing some wildlife and sunrises and sunsets (I worked long hours). I loved the winding hills, the farmlands, the small towns. The early morning light. Oh, not every day but there were plenty of days when I absolutely dreaded the coming work day and on my way in, I made a special point to notice the early morning sunlight and the way it fell on the hills and fields, to look for hawks or pheasants, to notice the way the sky looked, if trees were starting to bud again or to change color. It actually made a huge difference in how I felt for the whole day. And it became a habit: to look for something to see the beauty in or to smile about. I am so not a morning person but there were many days when the early morning light is what got me through my work day.

Great post.

And the point about marital happiness polls is well made. It could be (ie it could be a hidden variable) that people who are generally or naturally happier in the first instance, tend to get married, as you say. I don't know if it's true, but it should be taken into account as a possible factor.