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Running police forces in the USA

Tigers!

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Sep 19, 2005
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On the wing, waiting for a kick.
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Bible believing revelational redemptionist (Baptist)
Find it hard to believe that so many policeman in the USA are shooting people, seemingly at random and without seemingly any cause.

Are all these police forces run autonomously? Are they based upon states or cities? How is the training and disciplining done?

How is it that for years now police shoot so many and nothing seems to change? Are the police in an area are not looking at another and saying that we can do better than them?

Does the political leadership make any discernible difference i.e. are Republican led states/cities more likely to shoot people that Democratic led? And vice-versa? (I use the term 'led' very loosely here)
 
Find it hard to believe that so many policeman in the USA are shooting people, seemingly at random and without seemingly any cause.

Are all these police forces run autonomously? Are they based upon states or cities? How is the training and disciplining done?

How is it that for years now police shoot so many and nothing seems to change? Are the police in an area are not looking at another and saying that we can do better than them?

Does the political leadership make any discernible difference i.e. are Republican led states/cities more likely to shoot people that Democratic led? And vice-versa? (I use the term 'led' very loosely here)
Yes, there are way too many different police agencies in the US, with widely varying degrees of quality. According to wikipedia, "There are 17,985 U.S. police agencies in the United States which include City Police Departments, County Sheriff's Offices, State Police/Highway Patrol and Federal Law Enforcement Agencies." This is actually similar to the education problem in the US, every town/county has their own school system, again, with widely varying degrees of quality from world-class to downright embarassing.

The other problem is that the United States has very high levels of violent crime for a "developed" nation. Definitely much higher than you would predict by, say, GDP per capita. Also, everyone is armed. In this sense, it's not really random. Since 2015, the Washington post has documented 5397 police shootings. Of these shootings, 356 were people that were unarmed, and the great majority who were shot and killed were armed with a gun, 3184. Of those that were unarmed, about half directly attack police, either shooting at them with a gun or using another weapon. The rest were varying degrees of threat.

Here is the raw data: https://github.com/washingtonpost/data-police-shootings


And cops are basically trained to avoid getting killed. A lot of this training would be born out of the experiences in the late 70s and 80s, when something like 100 cops would get shot and killed a year. Nowadays, this has gone down, but America in the 80s was an extremely violent place. It still is, by developed world standards.
 
Find it hard to believe that so many policeman in the USA are shooting people, seemingly at random and without seemingly any cause.

Are all these police forces run autonomously? Are they based upon states or cities? How is the training and disciplining done?

How is it that for years now police shoot so many and nothing seems to change? Are the police in an area are not looking at another and saying that we can do better than them?

Does the political leadership make any discernible difference i.e. are Republican led states/cities more likely to shoot people that Democratic led? And vice-versa? (I use the term 'led' very loosely here)

None of what this guy explains could happen in Australia:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaD84DTGULo[/youtube]

EDIT: If you can find it, read "The Silent War", by John Silvester and Andrew Rule about the Victorian shootings in the 90's and compare and contrast to today with regards to scrutiny in US cop shootings. I suspect you are old enough to know the stereotype the Victorian Police Force had during the 90's, specifically the Armed Robbery Squad. Change only occurred through investigation and accountability.
 
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Find it hard to believe that so many policeman in the USA are shooting people, seemingly at random and without seemingly any cause.

Are all these police forces run autonomously? Are they based upon states or cities? How is the training and disciplining done?

How is it that for years now police shoot so many and nothing seems to change? Are the police in an area are not looking at another and saying that we can do better than them?

Does the political leadership make any discernible difference i.e. are Republican led states/cities more likely to shoot people that Democratic led? And vice-versa? (I use the term 'led' very loosely here)

None of what this guy explains could happen in Australia:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaD84DTGULo[/youtube]

EDIT: If you can find it, read "The Silent War", by John Silvester and Andrew Rule about the Victorian shootings in the 90's and compare and contrast to today with regards to scrutiny in US cop shootings. I suspect you are old enough to know the stereotype the Victorian Police Force had during the 90's, specifically the Armed Robbery Squad. Change only occurred through investigation and accountability.

Oh I can remember the Vic police in the 90s. We had a fellow at church who was then on general policing duties then and he was most scathing and uncomplimentary about the Armed Robbery and the Drug squad (or as he called it the 'one ounce at a time' squad). During the gangland shootings I am most grateful that no bystanders were hit.
And the NSW plods have been corrupt since the Rum Corp days. And then Qld for quite a while. We have had our share of rotten apples. Every few years a great cleanup is necessary. But we seem (thank God) to have avoided the large shooting of civilians.

I remember that book. My father had a copy. i shall see if he still has it.
 
Oh I can remember the Vic police in the 90s. We had a fellow at church who was then on general policing duties then and he was most scathing and uncomplimentary about the Armed Robbery and the Drug squad (or as he called it the 'one ounce at a time' squad). During the gangland shootings I am most grateful that no bystanders were hit.
And the NSW plods have been corrupt since the Rum Corp days. And then Qld for quite a while. We have had our share of rotten apples. Every few years a great cleanup is necessary. But we seem (thank God) to have avoided the large shooting of civilians.

I remember that book. My father had a copy. i shall see if he still has it.

So what's your take on gypsy cops?
 
Oh I can remember the Vic police in the 90s. We had a fellow at church who was then on general policing duties then and he was most scathing and uncomplimentary about the Armed Robbery and the Drug squad (or as he called it the 'one ounce at a time' squad). During the gangland shootings I am most grateful that no bystanders were hit.
And the NSW plods have been corrupt since the Rum Corp days. And then Qld for quite a while. We have had our share of rotten apples. Every few years a great cleanup is necessary. But we seem (thank God) to have avoided the large shooting of civilians.

I remember that book. My father had a copy. i shall see if he still has it.

So what's your take on gypsy cops?
If it is in the book I will need to read it.
Though the term does imply the cops wander from place to place, probably to keep ahead of self-inflicted trouble. Happens to teachers, ministers, CEOs etc.

Too many movements in too short a time should cause questions to be asked by the next organisation.
 
Oh I can remember the Vic police in the 90s. We had a fellow at church who was then on general policing duties then and he was most scathing and uncomplimentary about the Armed Robbery and the Drug squad (or as he called it the 'one ounce at a time' squad). During the gangland shootings I am most grateful that no bystanders were hit.
And the NSW plods have been corrupt since the Rum Corp days. And then Qld for quite a while. We have had our share of rotten apples. Every few years a great cleanup is necessary. But we seem (thank God) to have avoided the large shooting of civilians.

I remember that book. My father had a copy. i shall see if he still has it.

So what's your take on gypsy cops?
If it is in the book I will need to read it.
Though the term does imply the cops wander from place to place, probably to keep ahead of self-inflicted trouble. Happens to teachers, ministers, CEOs etc.

Too many movements in too short a time should cause questions to be asked by the next organisation.

Gypsy cops isn't in the book I recommended. It was in the video I provided. If you saw the video you would know that.
 
Normally, I don't double post, and normally I don't reply with read my youtube link.

What the original post was asking kinda requires it though, in my opinion. There were a lot of questions asked, and a lot of ignorance admitted. I believed a mere 20 minute video would answer some but certainly not all of the questions raised. I was even expecting at least a comment on how old the video was. No response. No comment on gypsy cops or body cams.


It makes me wonder...you know...if angelo and Tigers! "speak from the same sockpuppet" so to speak.
 
Find it hard to believe that so many policeman in the USA are shooting people, seemingly at random and without seemingly any cause.

Are all these police forces run autonomously? Are they based upon states or cities? How is the training and disciplining done?

How is it that for years now police shoot so many and nothing seems to change? Are the police in an area are not looking at another and saying that we can do better than them?

Does the political leadership make any discernible difference i.e. are Republican led states/cities more likely to shoot people that Democratic led? And vice-versa? (I use the term 'led' very loosely here)

US cops are trained an average of less than 4 months. Compare that to 3 years in Norway, after which most cops are still not allowed to carry a gun.

US cops are trained to have the mentality that they are a military force occupying enemy territory and they treat the public as such. Part of the problem is that ex-military are 4 times more likely to be cops, partly b/c police forces give preferential treatment to vets over superior applicants with fewer mental health concerns. Many vets have mental health issues and there is little valid standardized screening or treatment of these by police departments.
 
The following is related to my above comment about US cops being disproportionately military vets, many with mental health issues that are not properly screened and treated.

Cops are more likely to commit suicide than any other profession in the US. While some of that may be job stressors, some of it is likely the type of people who become cops. Military vets are more than 3 times as likely to be cops as non-vets, and male vets are about 50% more likely to commit suicide than civilian males.

Defenders of police violence like to use the expression "suicide by cop", and there are such cases such as many mass shooters who kill themselves if the cops do not. But it's likely that many civilians are victims of suicidal and mentally unstable cops.
 
Are all these police forces run autonomously? Are they based upon states or cities? How is the training and disciplining done?

How is it that for years now police shoot so many and nothing seems to change? Are the police in an area are not looking at another and saying that we can do better than them?

The video that Patooka posted answers all of these questions pretty succinctly, but I get that not everyone likes watching video, so here's a summary of the key points:

People have a reasonable concern about police accountability in the US because there have been many "controversial" instances of police killing people, but either the police officers, nor the departments they work for, are held accountable. Oliver names three victims: Alton Sterling, Philando Castile and Tamir Rice, the last of whom was only twelve years old when he was shot.

Oliver cites some police officers and conservative commentators who excuse these incidents as the actions of "bad apples". Oliver rejects this defence on several grounds. Firstly, bad apples "erode trust" in the police. Secondly, it doesn't address the bad laws that police are required to enforce. Thirdly, no-one actually knows how many "bad apples" there are, because law enforcement isn't even keeping track. The most damning critique of this "few bad apples" defence comes from the fact that cases of misconduct are covered up.

Cover-ups come in several forms:
  • Police departments are responsible for investigating themselves, and so they have a strong incentive to drag their feet and be gentle on investigated officers.
  • Police who report their fellow officers for misconduct are labelled as traitors and their fellow police officers abandon them without support in dangerous situations on the streets.
  • Some jurisdictions allow disciplinary records to be destroyed, sometimes after a very short time (e.g. 18 months), erasing evidence of police misconduct.
  • Police officers avoid disciplinary action, and prosecution for crimes, by resigning and moving to a department in another county. The officer who shot Tamir Rice was one such "gypsy cop"; he was hired by the Cleveland PD while still under investigation in his previous department, where a supervisor recorded that he was not fit to be a police officer.
  • Police are seldom prosecuted, and when they are, they are seldom convicted. Part of the problem is that the prosecutors and police are co-workers. Prosecutors rely on police, and work with them in the same officers, so it's only natural that they're reluctant to prosecute, and if they do prosecute, they sometimes sabotage their own cases. Officers often enjoy a presumption of innocence, both from judges and from juries, because then general public tend to trust police officers.

Lastly, police unions are unwilling to take the initiative to improve the conduct of their members. They oppose the implementation of body cameras.

So to answer your questions:

Are all these police forces run autonomously? Are they based upon states or cities? How is the training and disciplining done?

No police force is autonomous: they work for a city, country, or state. However, as J842P has pointed out, this means that there are almost 18 thousand police departments in the country. This is a massive contrast with our experience in Australia, where a state's police department is responsible for all of the policing that would done by city, county and state police departments in the US.

The consolidated nature of our Australian police departments means that they can consolidate critical resources and responsibilities, such as recruiting, training, communication, records, allocating personnel and other resources, and funding. This means that our state police are consistently selected, trained, resourced and then held to a high standard that is matched by only the best police departments in the US.

You think our police departments are badly behaved? Most of the police departments in the US are worse, and some are far worse.

How is it that for years now police shoot so many and nothing seems to change? Are the police in an area are not looking at another and saying that we can do better than them?


  1. Lack of accountability.
  2. Police unions actively oppose police reforms.
  3. Police risk their careers, and potentially put their lives in danger, if they speak out against misconduct.
  4. Some Americans are fine with the way the police conduct themselves, because they themselves are unlikely to be on the receiving end of police brutality.
  5. Some people believe that police should use brutal tactics to deal with offenders, up to and including shooting them when if it could be avoided.

Lastly, our police in Australia have an easier job than US police do. Firstly, Australians are rarely armed, so traffic stops and emergency dispatches are far less likely to put our police officers in lethal danger. Secondly, Australia isn't plagued with the same social problems found in the US, such as widespread and severe poverty and lack of infrastructure and services, so it's easier to our police to keep the peace.
 
Normally, I don't double post, and normally I don't reply with read my youtube link.

What the original post was asking kinda requires it though, in my opinion. There were a lot of questions asked, and a lot of ignorance admitted. I believed a mere 20 minute video would answer some but certainly not all of the questions raised. I was even expecting at least a comment on how old the video was. No response. No comment on gypsy cops or body cams.


It makes me wonder...you know...if angelo and Tigers! "speak from the same sockpuppet" so to speak.

I will put your worried mind at rest.
Angelo and I are not the same sock puppet - he is in WA and i am in Vic. Plus we follow different footy teams. I am the Tigers and Angelo, sadly, the Eagles.
Though I cannot guarantee Angelo is not a sock puppet for someone else.
 
If it is in the book I will need to read it.
Though the term does imply the cops wander from place to place, probably to keep ahead of self-inflicted trouble. Happens to teachers, ministers, CEOs etc.

Too many movements in too short a time should cause questions to be asked by the next organisation.

Gypsy cops isn't in the book I recommended. It was in the video I provided. If you saw the video you would know that.

I haven't watched the video yet though Bigfield was kind enough to post a precis.
 
Find it hard to believe that so many policeman in the USA are shooting people, seemingly at random and without seemingly any cause.

Are all these police forces run autonomously? Are they based upon states or cities? How is the training and disciplining done?

How is it that for years now police shoot so many and nothing seems to change? Are the police in an area are not looking at another and saying that we can do better than them?

Does the political leadership make any discernible difference i.e. are Republican led states/cities more likely to shoot people that Democratic led? And vice-versa? (I use the term 'led' very loosely here)

US cops are trained an average of less than 4 months. Compare that to 3 years in Norway, after which most cops are still not allowed to carry a gun.

US cops are trained to have the mentality that they are a military force occupying enemy territory and they treat the public as such. Part of the problem is that ex-military are 4 times more likely to be cops, partly b/c police forces give preferential treatment to vets over superior applicants with fewer mental health concerns. Many vets have mental health issues and there is little valid standardized screening or treatment of these by police departments.

Is the short training time a function of cost i.e. get them out the door quickly?

If they have the mentality that you mention then that is a worrying situation. Does not easily make for good relations between the parties.
 
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