RussiaGate

[barbos]

I am not completely unsympathetic to your anti-hegemony views. However, this is my country. I believe in democracy and I am doing my small part to make it better. I don't need or want Russia interfering.

US is de-facto a World Police which is elected only by americans. How is that a democracy?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I am not completely unsympathetic to your anti-hegemony views. However, this is my country. I believe in democracy and I am doing my small part to make it better. I don't need or want Russia interfering.

US is de-facto a World Police which is elected only by americans. How is that a democracy?

It's a representative democracy because we vote. Anyway, this thread isn't about whether Russia should have interfered in US elections, but instead about whether they did... Note the difference. And, of course, the thread is also about to what extent the Trump campaign/administration was involved in trying to get them to interfere.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Anyway, this thread isn't about whether Russia should have interfered in US elections, but instead about whether they did

And now we at least have definitive proof--as affirmed by Barr, the most biased possible source in the Trump occupancy beside Trump himself--that there was in fact a deliberate and concentrated effort with one specific goal: to put Trump in the WH.

So, no matter what else may be discussed, it is now no longer an open question as to whether or not Russia acted with specific intent. They did. So, barbos, you can no longer hide behind flak regarding general bumfuckery or whataboutism or any of the other nonsense you've regurgitated repeatedly.

No matter what America (or any other country for that matter) may or may not have done, it is no longer a question that Putin acted and did so with the express purpose of overturning our government and placing his own very clearly pro-Putin "asset" into the WH.

So now the questions become, was Trump compromised/blackmailed, or a willing participant, or was he simply a useful idiot? The Barr letter does not tell us much in this regard, only the cherry-picked sentence fragmented that I broke apart in the "Mueller investigation" thread, partially repeated here:

There's no doubt that Trump has been--at the very least--a carefully watched and likely cultivated Russian "target" for decades. This isn't just my speculation/assertion. These three articles contain the evidence:

Czechoslovakia spied on Donald and Ivana Trump, communist-era files show

Czechoslovakia ramped up spying on Trump in late 1980s, seeking US intel

Will Trump Be Meeting With His Counterpart — Or His Handler?

There's also no doubt that Trump has openly and personally praised Putin numerous times--before and during his presidency--and certainly behaved as if he were under Putin's influence on a multitude of measures that are otherwise inexplicable. Even if it were simply a matter of Trump protecting the interests of a business partner, it still amounts to the same treasonous acts.

As I've argued from the beginning, none of this started with the meeting in Trump Tower, or even the Miss Universe pageant. That was just when I believe this particular phase was started.

And, again, all we have so far from the Mueller report in regard to "collusion" is this cherry-picked sentence:

[T]he investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.¹

Where "1" is this carefully worded footnote:

¹ In assessing potential conspiracy charges, the Special Counsel also considered whether members of the Trump campaign “coordinated” with Russian election interference activities. The Special Counsel defined “coordination” as an “agreement—tacit or express—between the Trump Campaign and the Russian government on election interference.”

So, only in regard to "coordination," apparently, does Mueller make clear that the standard was in regard to an agreement (i.e., volitional) and that is then further broken down into "tacit or express." Why? And why does Barr even make it a footnote or include that in his summation? And why not the same condition regarding "conspired" (i.e., "tacit or express")?

Regardless, an agreement is not the question to be answered if we are trying to see whether or not Trump was a Russian asset being used by Putin. It's a question of legal standards, to be sure, but not a question of what actually happened, so if we take out the "coordinated" part and go strictly with the "conspired" part we have:

[T]he investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired with the Russian government in its election interference activities.

Which, likewise, if that were the entire thought and not a cherry-picked one (as the brackets around "[T]he" indicate) merely tells us that Mueller did not have a smoking gun (i.e., could not legally establish) that the "Trump Campaign" and the Russian government conspired. But without the same clarification of "tacit or express," does this cherry-picking affirm that Mueller could find no evidence of express conspiring, but could find evidence of tacit conspiring (which would therefore not rise to the legal standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt")?

Plus, once again, Stone was NOT a part of the Trump Campaign (he was fired after only two months) and he did allegedly conspire with Wikileaks and with Guccifer 2.0, a Russian hacker, not a member of the government.

So, once again, we are left with more questions than answers. Indeed, based on the exact same vaguaries Barr cherry-picked, we could easily write:

The investigation established that affiliates of the Trump Campaign conspired with Wikileaks and Russian hackers acting at the direction of the Russian government in its election interference activities.

Or, even:

While we could find no express evidence of conspiring, the investigation did establish that members of the Trump Campaign tacitly conspired with the Russian government in its election interference activities.

Both sentences are perfectly in keeping with everything presented in the Barr letter.

 

[barbos]

It's a representative democracy because we vote.

Well, I did not get to vote, why should I deserve the government you voted in?

 

[Copernicus]

It's a representative democracy because we vote.

Well, I did not get to vote, why should I deserve the government you voted in?

We don't deserve the government that you voted in, but so what? We also did not deserve Russian meddling in our elections. Putin did gain some rather obvious short term benefit from his intelligence operations against Western governments. Unfortunately, the blowback is only going to make things worse for Russia's diplomatic relations and economy in the future.

 

[Gun Nut]

It's a representative democracy because we vote.

Well, I did not get to vote, why should I deserve the government you voted in?

If you can't vote in an American Election, then you are not good enough a person to vote... you either failed to be born here, failed to show value to us to immigrate here, failed to hack your way in, failed to manipulate others in social media... your total failure is the reason you are not granted a vote... so just go along like the rest of the world and live how we say you should... or stop failing at being American.

 

[barbos]

It's a representative democracy because we vote.

Well, I did not get to vote, why should I deserve the government you voted in?

We don't deserve the government that you voted in, but so what? We also did not deserve Russian meddling in our elections.

I think you did.

Putin did gain some rather obvious short term benefit from his intelligence operations against Western governments. Unfortunately, the blowback is only going to make things worse for Russia's diplomatic relations and economy in the future.

Russian Meddling was a blowback in the first place. You have very short and selective memory.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I am not completely unsympathetic to your anti-hegemony views. However, this is my country. I believe in democracy and I am doing my small part to make it better. I don't need or want Russia interfering.

US is de-facto a World Police which is elected only by americans. How is that a democracy?

It's democratic.

The thing is nobody else has thrown their hat into the ring for sheriff. In an uncontested election 1 vote wins.

We prefer a world where we are sheriff to a world where there is no sheriff. We try to get others to step up to the plate but none do to a meaningful degree. Look how little the European powers did about the genocide in Yugoslavia, including handing over several thousand people to be killed because the troops there had no actual ability to apply meaningful force.

 

[PyramidHead]

I am not completely unsympathetic to your anti-hegemony views. However, this is my country. I believe in democracy and I am doing my small part to make it better. I don't need or want Russia interfering.

US is de-facto a World Police which is elected only by americans. How is that a democracy?

It's democratic.

The thing is nobody else has thrown their hat into the ring for sheriff. In an uncontested election 1 vote wins.

We prefer a world where we are sheriff to a world where there is no sheriff. We try to get others to step up to the plate but none do to a meaningful degree. Look how little the European powers did about the genocide in Yugoslavia, including handing over several thousand people to be killed because the troops there had no actual ability to apply meaningful force.

Please don't assume to speak for all of us with the word "we" accompanying this abject ignorance, it makes me throw up in my mouth

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Julian Assange has been captured by the United States.

Since Mueller's investigation is done, there will be no access to critical information.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

So "Russiagate", is that the entranceway through Trump's wall?

 

[J842P]

It's a representative democracy because we vote.

Well, I did not get to vote, why should I deserve the government you voted in?

We don't deserve the government that you voted in, but so what? We also did not deserve Russian meddling in our elections. Putin did gain some rather obvious short term benefit from his intelligence operations against Western governments. Unfortunately, the blowback is only going to make things worse for Russia's diplomatic relations and economy in the future.

Actually, whatever meddling the Russians did, it is quite small compared to what the US might deserve, from an unbiased point of view.

Of course, what the US deserves is neither here nor there.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

We don't deserve the government that you voted in, but so what? We also did not deserve Russian meddling in our elections. Putin did gain some rather obvious short term benefit from his intelligence operations against Western governments. Unfortunately, the blowback is only going to make things worse for Russia's diplomatic relations and economy in the future.

Actually, whatever meddling the Russians did, it is quite small compared to what the US might deserve, from an unbiased point of view.

Of course, what the US deserves is neither here nor there.

Trump being President is pretty bad. Somewhere between Pearl Harbor and 9/11.

 

[blastula]

Julian Assange has been captured by the United States.

Since Mueller's investigation is done, there will be no access to critical information.

He wasn't charged over the Russian hacks.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Julian Assange has been captured by the United States.

Since Mueller's investigation is done, there will be no access to critical information.

He wasn't charged over the Russian hacks.

Yet. Regardless, he is now in a position to give up information on the Russian hacks, to lessen his sentence in regard to other crimes he has been charged with. And since Stone is still sitting in the hot seat, my guess (hope) is that Assange's balls are being tightly viced as you read this.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Julian Assange has been captured by the United States.

Since Mueller's investigation is done, there will be no access to critical information.

He wasn't charged over the Russian hacks.

My point is that the wrong people have captured him at the wrong time.

 

[ZiprHead]

Julian Assange has been captured by the United States.

Since Mueller's investigation is done, there will be no access to critical information.

He wasn't charged over the Russian hacks.

Yet. Regardless, he is now in a position to give up information on the Russian hacks, to lessen his sentence in regard to other crimes he has been charged with. And since Stone is still sitting in the hot seat, my guess (hope) is that Assange's balls are being tightly viced as you read this.

Assange seems like the kind of guy that would make Joe Pesci pop his eye out before he would spill.

 

[Keith&Co.]

And since Stone is still sitting in the hot seat, my guess (hope) is that Assange's balls are being tightly viced as you read this.

...or they're ignoring all attempts to plea it out.

"Oh, that investigation is over. You should have turned yourself in a month ago...."

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Are the people interrogating Assange Trump loyalists or other? There are a lot of Trump loyalists in the military and FBI, CIA, etc. I hope luck is on the people's side and if he tries to spill the beans to make a deal, someone reports it through proper channels but as it stands now, the head of the FBI seems like he has crushed opposition to Trump.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Yet. Regardless, he is now in a position to give up information on the Russian hacks, to lessen his sentence in regard to other crimes he has been charged with. And since Stone is still sitting in the hot seat, my guess (hope) is that Assange's balls are being tightly viced as you read this.

Assange seems like the kind of guy that would make Joe Pesci pop his eye out before he would spill.

Really? He strikes me as a coward hiding away in embassies rather than facing the music.