RussiaGate

[Gun Nut]

I admit poster, this is a good point.

It’s a terrible “point” that betrays a gross or willful ignorance of how every single official investigation unfolds. Even the lowest on the totem pole (local police) follow an investigative procedure wherein all evidence that can possibly be discovered is first compiled and pieced together. Only after the police—i.e., the field investigators—feel they have found sufficient evidence that a particular suspect committed the particular crime do they then go to the DA to try and convince them that they have the case all locked down. Then the DA will review the evidence the police have gathered and make a determination at that point whether or not there is sufficient evidence to move to a grand jury.

If not, then the police need to go out and get more evidence. If so, then depending on what the grand jury rules, the DA will instruct the police who to arrest and who to subpoena as witnesses, etc., etc., etc.

It is always a process; never a “we found the smoking gun, so everything must happen right now.”

I think you watch too much Law & Order or CSI shows where everyone in law enforcement always does things by the book, never makes mistakes and has no biases.

Keep dreaming! Keep spinning!

so it's a witch hunt to you because they are following procedure and not leaking the information that you would like to have. got it. Precisely what I needed to understand about your point of view to dismiss it.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

Good point. No puppet you're the puppet

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

 

[ZiprHead]

https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1093268506513149955

 

[ZiprHead]

These Secret Files Show How The Trump Moscow Talks Unfolded While Trump Heaped Praise On Putin

Ahead of Michael Cohen’s testimony, read the original paper trail behind the campaign to build Europe’s tallest tower in Moscow — and how it played out alongside Donald Trump’s presidential campaign.

 

[Worldtraveller]

Such a tasty, juicy nothingburger. It includes all the toppings!

 

[Trausti]

Such a tasty, juicy nothingburger. It includes all the toppings!

Yeah, but the Russia Truthers will keep on truthin'.

 

[Elixir]

Such a tasty, juicy nothingburger. It includes all the toppings!

Too much mustard for my taste!

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Such a tasty, juicy nothingburger. It includes all the toppings!

Yeah, but the Russia Truthers will keep on truthin'.

I love it!

..

 

[lpetrich]

Is The Russia Investigation Really Another Watergate? | FiveThirtyEight has some nice diagrams comparing the Russia scandal to some other notable scandals of the last half-century, like Watergate, the Iran-Contra scandal, and the Whitewater scandal. The Russia-scandal investigation has been for less than two years, but it has resulted in more people indicted than in the Iran-Contra and the Whitewater scandals, and almost as many as in the Watergate one itself. A big difference, however, is that several of those indicted are Russians living outside the US, and they are not likely to set foot in US territory anytime soon. Also, while the Watergate scandal brought down Richard Nixon's presidency, the Iran-Contra scandal did not bring down Ronald Reagan's presidency, and the Whitewater scandal did not bring down Bill Clinton's presidency. So Donald Trump's Presidency might survive this Russia scandal, though I think that it will be badly bruised.

 

[barbos]

indicting russians especially the ones who have never been to US is stupid and incredibly near sighted.
Basically you indicted bunch of russian counter-intelligence officers for doing what they are supposed to do.
By the same logic Russia can indict any CIA/NSA employee.

 

[Copernicus]

indicting russians especially the ones who have never been to US is stupid and incredibly near sighted.
Basically you indicted bunch of russian counter-intelligence officers for doing what they are supposed to do.
By the same logic Russia can indict any CIA/NSA employee.

Any individual caught violating the laws of a country can be indicted by that country. It would be impossible not to indict individuals, especially spies, who are "doing what they are supposed to do"--that is, violating the laws of another country. Spying is illegal. You don't just ignore them, because you think that that's their legitimate job. Russian oligarchs, spies, and mobsters will be indicted if evidence turns up that they have violated our laws. The same will happen to US citizens who violate Russian laws. It's too bad that Russia has chosen not to extradite some of its citizens for serious crimes--e.g. poisoning people--in other countries, but we all understand why they don't do that. No government wants to acknowledge its ham-fisted attempts at sponsoring illegal acts in other countries.

 

[Elixir]

indicting russians especially the ones who have never been to US is stupid and incredibly near sighted.

Well. it has been - what? Over a year? And so far the results are all positive. (Unless you're a Russian or a Republican)

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

(Unless you're a Russian or a Republican)

Is there a difference?

 

[barbos]

indicting russians especially the ones who have never been to US is stupid and incredibly near sighted.
Basically you indicted bunch of russian counter-intelligence officers for doing what they are supposed to do.
By the same logic Russia can indict any CIA/NSA employee.

Any individual caught violating the laws of a country can be indicted by that country. It would be impossible not to indict individuals, especially spies, who are "doing what they are supposed to do"--that is, violating the laws of another country. Spying is illegal. You don't just ignore them, because you think that that's their legitimate job. Russian oligarchs, spies, and mobsters will be indicted if evidence turns up that they have violated our laws. The same will happen to US citizens who violate Russian laws. It's too bad that Russia has chosen not to extradite some of its citizens for serious crimes--e.g. poisoning people--in other countries, but we all understand why they don't do that. No government wants to acknowledge its ham-fisted attempts at sponsoring illegal acts in other countries.

So Germans can, for example, arrest and throw to prison CIA director when he decides to go visit Germany the next time?
And what about saudis? they all, 100% violate US laws while living in SA. Would not it be nice to throw them all in US prison?

 

[barbos]

indicting russians especially the ones who have never been to US is stupid and incredibly near sighted.

Well. it has been - what? Over a year? And so far the results are all positive. (Unless you're a Russian or a Republican)

Yeah, there were a lot of Americans Putin can indict now, starting with Hillary.

 

[Copernicus]

indicting russians especially the ones who have never been to US is stupid and incredibly near sighted.
Basically you indicted bunch of russian counter-intelligence officers for doing what they are supposed to do.
By the same logic Russia can indict any CIA/NSA employee.

Any individual caught violating the laws of a country can be indicted by that country. It would be impossible not to indict individuals, especially spies, who are "doing what they are supposed to do"--that is, violating the laws of another country. Spying is illegal. You don't just ignore them, because you think that that's their legitimate job. Russian oligarchs, spies, and mobsters will be indicted if evidence turns up that they have violated our laws. The same will happen to US citizens who violate Russian laws. It's too bad that Russia has chosen not to extradite some of its citizens for serious crimes--e.g. poisoning people--in other countries, but we all understand why they don't do that. No government wants to acknowledge its ham-fisted attempts at sponsoring illegal acts in other countries.

So Germans can, for example, arrest and throw to prison CIA director when he decides to go visit Germany the next time?
And what about saudis? they all, 100% violate US laws while living in SA. Would not it be nice to throw them all in US prison?

Were the heads of the FSB or GRU indicted by a US prosecutor? I must have missed that. But, in principle, yes. As for the Saudis, I must admit that I would like to see them thrown into a US prison. The reality is that indictments are handed down against people by a grand jury on the basis of evidence that those individuals committed crimes. Their bosses aren't usually indicted, unless there is some credible evidence of their direct involvement.

 

[barbos]

So Germans can, for example, arrest and throw to prison CIA director when he decides to go visit Germany the next time?
And what about saudis? they all, 100% violate US laws while living in SA. Would not it be nice to throw them all in US prison?

Were the heads of the FSB or GRU indicted by a US prosecutor? I must have missed that. But, in principle, yes. As for the Saudis, I must admit that I would like to see them thrown into a US prison. The reality is that indictments are handed down against people by a grand jury on the basis of evidence that those individuals committed crimes. Their bosses aren't usually indicted, unless there is some credible evidence of their direct involvement.

So do you have a problem with indicting foreign government people for something you are doing as well?
I understand that US justice system is independent and all but the only reason why russians are meddling is because you are meddling. If you stop they will stop as well.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

It would probably be okay if American Joe schmoes were getting involved in helping to increase democracy worldwide, but not American oligarchs. Likewise, it would probably be okay if Russian Joe Schmoes were getting involved in helping to increase democracy worldwide, but not Russian oligarchs. What we're talking about here is false representation of the people, corruption, and misleading because of non-transparency. Those things are not only non-democratic, but they are also anti-democratic.

Now, further, we have methods for influence that involve transparency and that mitigate corruption and those involve registering as a foreign agent.

 

[lpetrich]

The biggest political scandal in American history - Axios

Historians tell Axios that the only two scandals that come close to Trump-Russia are Watergate, which led to President Richard Nixon's resignation in 1974, and the Teapot Dome scandal of the early 1920s, in which oil barons bribed a corrupt aide to President Warren Harding for petroleum leases.

But neither of those scandals involved foreign meddling.

Trump and his associates have been involved in:

1. Paying hush money to two of Trump's mistresses, then lying about it.
2. Continuing to negotiate a deal for a Trump Tower in Moscow, then lying about it.
3. Having more than 100 contacts with Russian officials during the 2016 campaign, in which the Russians offered to assist. Complete with not alerting the FBI and other such agencies.
4. Former national security adviser Michael Flynn pleaded guilty to lying about his contacts with Russian officials.
5. Trump fired FBI director James Comey because of the Russia investigation.
6. Trump got a top-secret security clearance for son-in-law Jared Kushner, something that alarmed White House chief of staff John Kelly.

In his investigation, Robert Mueller has indicated 27 people so far. Watergate is still the champion in that, however, with 69 people charged.