Russia's Ghost Army in Ukraine

[tupac chopra]

You have not shown that Putin told a lie though.

Putin contrasts two things.

1) Crimea joining Russia (under force)
2) Crimean residents choosing their own destiny, which would include them leaving Ukraine something along the lines of Kosovo.

As there was a referendum with a landslide result, and as 12 months later the Crimeans are happy with their choice, it is pretty clearly option 2.

There is nothing to stop you "calling bullshit" but you have not shown that to actually be the case...have you?

You don't annex a country in a snap of fingers unless you have planned it in advance. But I don't have to speculate one bit, because we now know that there was indeed a plan not only to annex Crimea but to do the same to Eastern Ukraine.

So according to your source someone had a a plan to annex Crimea and this plan came across Putin's desk in February 2014. Then In March 2014 someone asked Putin if he had considered forcibly annexing Crimea to which he replied that any decision like that would be a decision made by the residents of Crimea and not a decision that should be forced on them.

Then later in March the residents of Crimea overwhelmingly chose to return to Russia, when the question was put to them.
No one forced them to, though with Nazi's from Kiev murdering Crimeans, and chaos in much of Ukraine and a Russian military base in Sevastopol it hardly surprising they decided to return.

In other words I don't think your links don't say what you appear to want them to.

 

[barbos]

Failed to fix it for you.

Fixed that for you. And if it pleases you, I changed my original wording to match the exact question in case you felt that the word "annex" is somehow biased.

Look, Crimea is gone.
You can use it for internal propaganda but bringing it up will not get you anywhere with russians.

Keep in mind that this was just one of his lies. In the same interview you can find him deny the little green men being Russian, and of course, he is untruthful about believing in people living in a given territory determining their own future, as Russia hasn't recognized Kosovo's independence.

Actually, you will need to show a quote for this, cause he never denied it, he merely deflected the question.

It's pretty clear.

QUESTION: Mr President, a clarification if I may. The people who were blocking the Ukrainian Army units in Crimea were wearing uniforms that strongly resembled the Russian Army uniform. Were those Russian soldiers, Russian military?

VLADIMIR PUTIN: Why don’t you take a look at the post-Soviet states. There are many uniforms there that are similar. You can go to a store and buy any kind of uniform.

QUESTION: But were they Russian soldiers or not?

VLADIMIR PUTIN: Those were local self-defence units.

QUESTION: How well trained are they? If we compare them to the self-defence units in Kiev…

VLADIMIR PUTIN: My dear colleague, look how well trained the people who operated in Kiev were. As we all know they were trained at special bases in neighbouring states: in Lithuania, Poland and in Ukraine itself too. They were trained by instructors for extended periods. They were divided into dozens and hundreds, their actions were coordinated, they had good communication systems. It was all like clockwork. Did you see them in action? They looked very professional, like special forces. Why do you think those in Crimea should be any worse?

QUESTION: In that case, can I specify: did we take part in training Crimean self-defence forces?

VLADIMIR PUTIN: No, we did not.

That's not a deflection, it's pretty clearly saying that the green-clad soldiers were local "self-defense forces", and not trained by Russia which excludes any Russian military (unless there is some special branch that has no training whatsoever).

That's a successful deflection. Some of these troops were in fact local "self-defense forces".
You have a right to be frustrated but that's what politicians do.
That's what US politicians did when they invaded Iraq, that's what NSA chief did when he was asked in congress whether or not they spy on americans. That's what US administration did during Iran-Contras scandal, and that's what Clinton did during his sex scandal.

 

[tupac chopra]

That's a successful deflection. Some of these troops were in fact local "self-defense forces".
.

Which is exactly what these guys look like.
Dad's army

 

[tupac chopra]

Here are his exact words:
.

Thank you for that link too. It's an interesting interview.

The real problem is that none of the previous Ukrainian governments gave proper attention to people’s needs. Here in Russia we have many problems, and many of them are similar to those in Ukraine, but they are not as serious as in Ukraine. Average per capita [monthly] income in Russia, for example, is 29,700 rubles, but in Ukraine, if we convert it into rubles, it is 11,900 rubles, I think – almost three times lower than in Russia. The average pension in Russia is 10,700 rubles, but in Ukraine it is 5,500 rubles – twice lower than in Russia. Great Patriotic War veterans in Russia receive almost as much as the average worker each month. In other words, there is a substantial difference in living standards. This was what the various governments should have been focusing on right from the start. Of course they needed to fight crime, nepotism, clans and so on, especially in the economy. People see what is going on, and this creates lack of confidence in the authorities.

This has continued as several generations of modern Ukrainian politicians have come and gone, and the ultimate result is that people are disappointed and want to see a new system and new people in power. This was the main source of fuel for the events that took place. But let me say again: a change of power, judging by the whole situation, was probably necessary in Ukraine, but it should have taken place only through legitimate means, in respect for and not in violation of the current Constitution.

 

[crispy]

Thank you for that link too. It's an interesting interview.

The real problem is that none of the previous Ukrainian governments gave proper attention to people’s needs. Here in Russia we have many problems, and many of them are similar to those in Ukraine, but they are not as serious as in Ukraine. Average per capita [monthly] income in Russia, for example, is 29,700 rubles, but in Ukraine, if we convert it into rubles, it is 11,900 rubles, I think – almost three times lower than in Russia. The average pension in Russia is 10,700 rubles, but in Ukraine it is 5,500 rubles – twice lower than in Russia. Great Patriotic War veterans in Russia receive almost as much as the average worker each month. In other words, there is a substantial difference in living standards. This was what the various governments should have been focusing on right from the start. Of course they needed to fight crime, nepotism, clans and so on, especially in the economy. People see what is going on, and this creates lack of confidence in the authorities.

This has continued as several generations of modern Ukrainian politicians have come and gone, and the ultimate result is that people are disappointed and want to see a new system and new people in power. This was the main source of fuel for the events that took place. But let me say again: a change of power, judging by the whole situation, was probably necessary in Ukraine, but it should have taken place only through legitimate means, in respect for and not in violation of the current Constitution.

Not very suprising is it? People didn't like the current state, and revolted against the government in hope of changes, and they got a new president. Of course elections are preferable to riots, but thats the way it went down...

 

[Togo]

Look, Crimea is gone.
You can use it for internal propaganda but bringing it up will not get you anywhere with russians.

Sure it will. It's the basic problem - that Russia can not be trusted to either respect the territorial integrity of it's neighbours, nor it's prior agreements, nor it's own statements of intent. Crimea is the problem. No one is ever going to stop brining it up.

 

[barbos]

Look, Crimea is gone.
You can use it for internal propaganda but bringing it up will not get you anywhere with russians.

Sure it will. It's the basic problem - that Russia can not be trusted to either respect the territorial integrity of it's neighbours, nor it's prior agreements, nor it's own statements of intent. Crimea is the problem. No one is ever going to stop brining it up.

No, it won't get you anywhere. Russians don't share your view at all. As I have said many times before,Crimea is considered a russian terrirtory.
Pressing this issue is a waste of time and is actually hurting chances of meaningful discussion of real problems, but I suspect that US side is not interested in that

 

[Ford]

Sure it will. It's the basic problem - that Russia can not be trusted to either respect the territorial integrity of it's neighbours, nor it's prior agreements, nor it's own statements of intent. Crimea is the problem. No one is ever going to stop brining it up.

No, it won't get you anywhere. Russians don't share your view at all. As I have said many times before,Crimea is considered a russian terrirtory.

I actually agree on this point. Like our completely unbiased Russian commenters barbos and tupac (that's sarcasm), Russia and Russians don't give a flying fuck what anyone thinks about their annexation of Crimea or parts of Ukraine. They're going to march into their neighbor's territory and dare the rest of the world to do something about it. Whenever anyone complains, they'll toss out accusations that they're not the problem, and it is "western meddling" at best or "nazi thugs" at worst.

This will continue as Ukraine is slowly assimilated back into Moscow's control. The only question that remains is what they'll do after they've got that done.


My guess is they'll "liberate" Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania.

 

[barbos]

http://www.vantaansanomat.fi/artikk...uutettu-eerola-pahoinpideltiin-ita-ukrainassa
Nice work, After ukainians expelled all russian journalists they have nobody to beat, so they started beating western journalists - finnish, that will teach these non-NATO allied fins not to speak or know russian language.

 

[tupac chopra]

Look, Crimea is gone.
You can use it for internal propaganda but bringing it up will not get you anywhere with russians.

Sure it will. It's the basic problem - that Russia can not be trusted to either respect the territorial integrity of it's neighbours, nor it's prior agreements, nor it's own statements of intent. Crimea is the problem. No one is ever going to stop brining it up.

Crimea is not a problem. The Crimeans are happy.
You are unhappy , but why you should your view matter?

The Crimeans voted to return to Russia. The precedent was set in Kosovo. One year later they are still happy.

What business do you have in trying to make them return to Ukraine?

 

[Juma]

The Crimeans voted to return to Russia.

No they did not. That referendum was a big scam.

 

[barbos]

The Crimeans voted to return to Russia.

No they did not. That referendum was a big scam.

Yes they did vote to go back to Russia. The big scam was Maidan.

 

[tupac chopra]

No, it won't get you anywhere. Russians don't share your view at all. As I have said many times before,Crimea is considered a russian terrirtory.

I actually agree on this point. Like our completely unbiased Russian commenters barbos and tupac (that's sarcasm), Russia and Russians don't give a flying fuck what anyone thinks about their annexation of Crimea or parts of Ukraine. They're going to march into their neighbor's territory and dare the rest of the world to do something about it. Whenever anyone complains,.

Maybe they would care if Crimeans complained. http://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?4022-One-Year-Later-Crimeans-Prefer-Russia

The really weird thing, and I mean really weird, is that you are in America and you are complaining??!!
Yet the Crimeans are happy.
Don't you think it is a bit patronsing that you think you know better than Crimeans.

Eighty-two percent of those polled said they fully supported Crimea's inclusion in Russia, and another 11 percent expressed partial support. Only 4 percent spoke out against it.

- - - Updated - - -

The Crimeans voted to return to Russia.

No they did not. That referendum was a big scam.

If the referendum was a scam then why do we get exactly the same results in an independent poll one year later?

Eighty-two percent of those polled said they fully supported Crimea's inclusion in Russia, and another 11 percent expressed partial support. Only 4 percent spoke out against it.

 

[Togo]

Sure it will. It's the basic problem - that Russia can not be trusted to either respect the territorial integrity of it's neighbours, nor it's prior agreements, nor it's own statements of intent. Crimea is the problem. No one is ever going to stop brining it up.

No, it won't get you anywhere. Russians don't share your view at all.

Why would that matter?

As long as Russian territory can grow by military annexation, despite formal agreements and informal assurances from Russia, other neighbouring countries are not safe. People are going to keep on bringing it up. Whether Russians are inclined to agree is kinda irrelevant.

 

[Axulus]

Some honesty from Putin for a change:

Vladimir Putin has admitted for the first time that the plan to annex Crimea was ordered weeks before the referendum on self-determination.

Mr Putin said on TV he had ordered work on "returning Crimea" to begin at an all-night meeting on 22 February.

The meeting was called after Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych was ousted.

...

On 27 February, unidentified armed men seized the local parliament and local government buildings in Crimea, raising the Russian flag.

Among them appeared to be regular soldiers without military insignia, who were dubbed the "little green men".

Mr Putin subsequently admitted deploying troops on the peninsula to "stand behind Crimea's self-defence forces".

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31796226

 

[Axulus]

Here are his exact words:

Just two weeks later, Russia annexed Crimea. So I call bullshit on Putin saying that he did not "consider the possibility of it joining Russia".

Keep in mind that this was just one of his lies. .

You have not shown that Putin told a lie though.

Putin contrasts two things.

1) Crimea joining Russia (under force)
2) Crimean residents choosing their own destiny, which would include them leaving Ukraine something along the lines of Kosovo.

As there was a referendum with a landslide result, and as 12 months later the Crimeans are happy with their choice, it is pretty clearly option 2.

There is nothing to stop you "calling bullshit" but you have not shown that to actually be the case...have you?

Will you now admit the lie, now that Putin has admitted that he ordered Russia to annex Crimea on Feb 22nd? Will you admit you were duped by Putin's propaganda?

What other things might you be duped on? Have you questioned your own gullibility in regards Putin's propaganda? Are you reassessing what you believe like a rational person should do in light of new facts and information?

 

[crispy]

Some honesty from Putin for a change:

Vladimir Putin has admitted for the first time that the plan to annex Crimea was ordered weeks before the referendum on self-determination.

Mr Putin said on TV he had ordered work on "returning Crimea" to begin at an all-night meeting on 22 February.

The meeting was called after Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych was ousted.

...

On 27 February, unidentified armed men seized the local parliament and local government buildings in Crimea, raising the Russian flag.

Among them appeared to be regular soldiers without military insignia, who were dubbed the "little green men".

Mr Putin subsequently admitted deploying troops on the peninsula to "stand behind Crimea's self-defence forces".

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31796226

If I put my tin foil hat on then I could argue that Putin staged the Maidan riots in order to annex Crimea

Applying tin-foil logic, this conjecture can be proven by the simple fact that it was a too obvious (relative to the thickness of your tin-foil hat) false-flag operation by the west, for it to be true, which means that in reality its a double false flag operation. This is again proven by asking the question of who actually profited from this?!? Putin! He got Crimea!

Im so good at this

 

[tupac chopra]

You have not shown that Putin told a lie though.

Putin contrasts two things.

1) Crimea joining Russia (under force)
2) Crimean residents choosing their own destiny, which would include them leaving Ukraine something along the lines of Kosovo.

As there was a referendum with a landslide result, and as 12 months later the Crimeans are happy with their choice, it is pretty clearly option 2.

There is nothing to stop you "calling bullshit" but you have not shown that to actually be the case...have you?

Will you now admit the lie, now that Putin has admitted that he ordered Russia to annex Crimea on Feb 22nd?

Except Putin did not admit that.

Speaking last year, Mr Putin had said only that he took his final decision about Crimea after secret, undated opinion polls showed 80% of Crimeans favoured joining Russia

Will you admit you were duped by Putin's propaganda?

Feb 18. Coup in Kiev that Putin believes is the work of the USA.
Feb 20 Ukrainian nationalists are murdering Crimeans
Feb 22 Putin begins work on bringing Crimea back to Russia but does "order". In fact everything he says is that this is a decision for the Crimean people.

Some time after this Putin conducts a poll and sees that the overwhelming majority of Crimeans want to return to Russia.
So Putin organizes a referendum knowing it will be a landslide.

Have you questioned your own gullibility in regards Putin's propaganda? Are you reassessing what you believe like a rational person should do in light of new facts and information?

There is nothing really new and nothing inconsistent with what we already knew. One would have to be pretty naive to imagine that with a coup in Kiev and Russian naval bases in Crimea and Crimea previously being part of Russia that these things weren't being considered.

With an overwhelming majority of Crimeans wanting to return to Russia, Putin's job was easy.

What i don't understand is that if the overwhelming majority of Crimeans want to be part of Russia and Russia wants to have them, why you don't want that....can you explain? Thanks

 

[Ford]

Some time after this Putin conducts a poll and sees that the overwhelming majority of Crimeans want to return to Russia.

Amazing! A poll conducted by a Russian who wants to annex Crimea turns out in his favor!

So Putin organizes a referendum knowing it will be a landslide.

A Russian, keen to annex territory, organizes a referendum in that territory and it turns out exactly as he planned. Wow, what a coincidence! Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.

With an overwhelming majority of Crimeans wanting to return to Russia, Putin's job was easy.

So easy he didn't even need to send in Russian troops in order to ensure the desired result.




In other news, an overwhelming majority of North Koreans said in a recent poll that they love Kim Jong Un, and would totally support him in the imminent war with Western Imperialists.

 

[tupac chopra]

Amazing! A poll conducted by a Russian who wants to annex Crimea turns out in his favor!

A poll from Germany's biggest market research firm confirmed this recently. The Crimeans like being part of Russia.

One Year Later, Crimeans Prefer Russia

Ukrainian political scientist Taras Berezovets, a Crimea native, recently started an initiative he called Free Crimea, aided by the Canada Fund for Local Initiatives and aimed at building Ukrainian soft power on the peninsula. He started by commissioning a poll of Crimean residents from the Ukrainian branch of Germany's biggest market research organization, GfK. The poll results were something of a cold shower to Berezovets.

If the Crimeans themselves want to be a part of Russia then who are you to get upset?

So easy he didn't even need to send in Russian troops in order to ensure the desired result.

No Russian troops were sent in. There were already Russian troops in Crimea, up to 25,000 by agreement.

But it was the locals who took control of the airport. Do these guys look like Russian crack commando's to you?