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Sanders and Trump supporters agree on at least one thing ...

But he still fucking won. That is a blot on your country that you can't try to distance yourselves from. Americans talking about how Trump doesn't represent them are starting to sound a whole lot like guys who tell their girlfriends that the only reason they beat them up was because they were drunk and that's not who they really are.

You're the country where Donald Frigging Trump was able to get elected President. That's who you are. Stop trying to say you're something else.

Hey - shit happens. Didn't you have a drug-crazed moron for a mayor in your city at one point? And you don't (afaik) even have an electoral college to blame for that debacle.
I won't try to jam that guy down your throat and tell you "that's who you are", though.
FWIW, I think that in the long run Trump could turn out to be a blessing in disguise. He has certainly tarnished the rethuglican party, which is something of which I approve. Further, I am one of those who really did hold their nose while voting for HRC. As such I have to wonder if, had she been elected, that would have doomed us to decades of neo-con backlash after her tenure, which would have been marked by the same degree of governmental paralysis that is the hallmark of the Cheato "presidency", given a 'pug-controlled congress.

I too can see the possible silver lining here to the Trump debacle. Had Hillary won you would have had another 8 years, possibly 20 something years of more of the same establishment pay to play, corruption, etc that you've had for the past 20 or so years. Trump having his 4 (or less hopefully) years is a real chance to shake things up. Sanders has a bigger following today than he did a year ago and others like him are emerging. Such grass roots people were ignored and dismissed prior to this election of Trump. Now suddenly they are listened to, and that's a good thing. And I include people on the non-mainstream right in that as well. If Trump means a major shake up of the political system, then this may still turn out to be a net good in the long run.

Once Trump is out, there's a real chance now that we could see an ACTUAL draining of the swamp on both sides. At least we can hope.
 
But he still fucking won. That is a blot on your country that you can't try to distance yourselves from. Americans talking about how Trump doesn't represent them are starting to sound a whole lot like guys who tell their girlfriends that the only reason they beat them up was because they were drunk and that's not who they really are.

You're the country where Donald Frigging Trump was able to get elected President. That's who you are. Stop trying to say you're something else.

Hey - shit happens. Didn't you have a drug-crazed moron for a mayor in your city at one point? And you don't (afaik) even have an electoral college to blame for that debacle.
I won't try to jam that guy down your throat and tell you "that's who you are", though.
FWIW, I think that in the long run Trump could turn out to be a blessing in disguise. He has certainly tarnished the rethuglican party, which is something of which I approve. Further, I am one of those who really did hold their nose while voting for HRC. As such I have to wonder if, had she been elected, that would have doomed us to decades of neo-con backlash after her tenure, which would have been marked by the same degree of governmental paralysis that is the hallmark of the Cheato "presidency", given a 'pug-controlled congress.

That was who we were. We done fucked up.

We used it as an opportunity to take a look at ourselves and the assumptions we were making about ourselves as members of a city. Then when his brother was running after the karmic cancer saved us all, we were like "No, we're not going to do this twice because we're better than this and need to make a more positive set of decisions". So we did.

That's the same with you. You, as a country, fucked up. Whether you fucked up voting for Trump, fucked up staying home and holding your breath because Ms Poo-poo Head had beaten out your boo or whatever, this was a major error that you all need to take ownership of and stop pretending that someone else was at fault. So long as your focus is on blaming other people, you're never going to get around to making a more positive set of decisions.
 
This thread is one year old, in case you did not notice.

Shit. That sucks. Let me totally revamp and redraft my question in order to connect it to the current times: "The republicans are just so fucking hypocritical. It's unbelievable. You wanted to lock Hillary up because she might have accidently leaked classified information (although it turns out she didn't). Trump deliberately leaked classified information directly to a rival (the Russians), in order to brag. Where's your cute slogans now?"
Much better! Your previous reply sucked year old rotten eggs Yugely...
 
You, as a country, fucked up.

No argument there! It was a YUUUUGE fuckup. Tremendous. Incredible The Greatest fuckup ever.

Whether you fucked up voting for Trump, fucked up staying home and holding your breath because Ms Poo-poo Head had beaten out your boo or whatever

I did none of those things (except maybe "whatever", if that includes caucusing for Bernie and voting for HRC against Cheato).

this was a major error that you all need to take ownership of and stop pretending that someone else was at fault.

Yup. That is agreed among almost all who didn't vote for Cheato. There is little consensus about what to do about it at this point, though. I don't suppose you have a spare stomach tumor (or whatever killed your Ford guy) you could give to "President Trump", eh?

So long as your focus is on blaming other people, you're never going to get around to making a more positive set of decisions.

My focus is on how to maximize turnout in the 2018 midterms for candidates who will deny Cheato's agenda. If you have any ideas....
I agree that if the Dems position themselves as 'the Anti-Trump Party", they're doomed to failure (except possibly in the very short term). But there seems to be no unifying positive vision for the D Party. Maybe it has to start with a personality as yet unknown, or maybe a simple slogan can touch something off.
My slogan nomination:
RAV
"Restore American Values"

I mean - who would argue against THAT? It might not mean exactly the same thing to any two people, but that's exactly what made Make America Great Again great again. One size fits all, hollow, meaningless, infinitely ambiguous, and most importantly, unarguably POSITIVE.
 
Hey - shit happens. Didn't you have a drug-crazed moron for a mayor in your city at one point? And you don't (afaik) even have an electoral college to blame for that debacle.
I won't try to jam that guy down your throat and tell you "that's who you are", though.
FWIW, I think that in the long run Trump could turn out to be a blessing in disguise. He has certainly tarnished the rethuglican party, which is something of which I approve. Further, I am one of those who really did hold their nose while voting for HRC. As such I have to wonder if, had she been elected, that would have doomed us to decades of neo-con backlash after her tenure, which would have been marked by the same degree of governmental paralysis that is the hallmark of the Cheato "presidency", given a 'pug-controlled congress.

That was who we were. We done fucked up.

We used it as an opportunity to take a look at ourselves and the assumptions we were making about ourselves as members of a city. Then when his brother was running after the karmic cancer saved us all, we were like "No, we're not going to do this twice because we're better than this and need to make a more positive set of decisions". So we did.

That's the same with you. You, as a country, fucked up. Whether you fucked up voting for Trump, fucked up staying home and holding your breath because Ms Poo-poo Head had beaten out your boo or whatever, this was a major error that you all need to take ownership of and stop pretending that someone else was at fault. So long as your focus is on blaming other people, you're never going to get around to making a more positive set of decisions.
The original point is that Trump's victory does not represent the majority views of the electorate since he did not win the popular vote. Trump did win fair and square given the procedures, but it is counterfactual to claim he represented the will of a majority of voters at the time of the election.
 
The original point is that Trump's victory does not represent the majority views of the electorate since he did not win the popular vote. Trump did win fair and square given the procedures, but it is counterfactual to claim he represented the will of a majority of voters at the time of the election.

True! The counterpoint though, is that it remains incumbent upon the majority to counteract the gerrymandering, collusion and Fake News that got Cheato elected. God knows - the Trumpsucking minority aren't going to do anything about any of those things.
If we want to Restore American Values (RAV - see what I did there?) and get a government that at least ostensibly represents the citizenry, it is up to us "losers" (and that includes conservatives with enough brains to see through Cheato's charade) to pull together and defeat the forces of the Dark Side.
 
Shit. That sucks. Let me totally revamp and redraft my question in order to connect it to the current times: "The republicans are just so fucking hypocritical. It's unbelievable. You wanted to lock Hillary up because she might have accidently leaked classified information (although it turns out she didn't). Trump deliberately leaked classified information directly to a rival (the Russians), in order to brag. Where's your cute slogans now?"
Much better! Your previous reply sucked year old rotten eggs Yugely...

Thank you. I actually had to go through five drafts and spent hours updating the statement to mesh with today! Seriously, it's depressing that the republicans get away with so much and are so hypocritical.
 
Yeah. Too little too late for that. The comments below the article are, for the most part, spot on.

But Bernie Bros and other purity testing liberals were just too noble and pure to understand things like the makeup of the Supreme Court and other blindingly fucking obvious issues.

It wasn't just Bernie people. People from all over the political map, including republicans who allowed Trump to take the nomination, were sick of the political establishment and not being heard by political elites. So much so that they allowed Trump to happen. Hardly anybody expected him to win. He was a vote for bigots and for those in the rust belt who felt forgotten and who he spoke to, was protest vote for many others who resented the establishment politics, and massive apathy for Clinton pushed it into an actual win for the most unlikely of candidates. Nobody cared about Hillary Clinton and her "I'm with her" rather than "She's with us" message, and with her pay to play politics she garnered an image that turned many away from voting for her and people simply didn't show up to support her. I can't say I blame them.

Deserved or not, Hillary Clinton remains the poster-girl for corruption in the Democrat party and the sooner she is forgotten the better.

^^^This. Could not agree more. And yes, the point is taken that he actually lost the popular vote, so it's not as if a majority of Americans supported him. Some just hated her more. I think those trying to pin this on the "Bernie bros" are just trying to avoid responsibility for the shitty campaign she ran. Only about 25% of her ads focused on policy and what she was for. Mainly, they were just, "Trump bad. Vote for me." He was/is bad, but at least you knew where he stood. And sure, he lied ... repeatedly, to garner votes, but people took the lies about something rather than the crickets they heard in certain states from her.

The Bernie supporters were split: some sucked it up, held their noses and voted for her as the lesser of two evils, while some others said, F--- them both, we're going 3rd party. It was interesting to watch on my Facebook feed, one friend for whom Hillary could do no wrong and Bernie was a whining loser, to the other one, saying that Bernie betrayed the movement by backing her after he lost, criticizing Hillary to no end, and backing Jill Stein to the point where she'd hyper-inflate the support Stein had. I was a Bernie supporter who, due to NY's messed up laws, didn't have enough time to change parties to vote for him in the primaries, and decided for the general that a vote for Hillary would at least serve to keep the man-baby Cheeto head out of the White House.

This has had the positive effect of firing up the progressive base and creating Justice Democrats who seek to perform a hostile takeover of the Democratic Party and oust the corporate establishment Democrats and support a populist left style platform and work with Brand New Congress and National Nurses United to get money out of politics. We're going to primary folks like corporate Joe Manchin and kick GOP Congressmen/women out!
 
Once Trump is out, there's a real chance now that we could see an ACTUAL draining of the swamp on both sides. At least we can hope.
why would you think that? i don't want to seem too aggressive on this or to be attacking you but i'm completely baffled as to why the hell anyone would think that.

the bush administration was pure unmitigated regressive evil - it was the tank rolling down tiananmen square with a literally retarded person strapped to the cannon barrel saying the half glass was full.
the trump administration is a clown car T-boning a VW bus full of skinheads.

if having the entire concept of a liberal and democratic political structure threatened by an administration that had a mission statement of dismantling any system by which they could be politically opposed didn't scare everyone into voting democrat for the next 30 years, a bunch of incompetent fuckwits play-acting at being political leaders sure as shit won't do it.
 
From that story,

Specifically, if the Sanders-Trump voters in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania had voted for Clinton, or even stayed home on Election Day, those states would have swung to Clinton, and she would have won 46 more electoral votes, putting her at 278 — enough to win, in other words.

To be fair, they also said,

For example, Schaffner tells NPR that around 12 percent of Republican primary voters (including 34 percent of Ohio Gov. John Kasich voters and 11 percent of Florida Sen. Marco Rubio voters) ended up voting for Clinton. And according to one 2008 study, around 25 percent of Clinton primary voters in that election ended up voting for Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., in the general. (In addition, the data showed 13 percent of McCain primary voters ended up voting for Obama, and 9 percent of Obama voters ended up voting for McCain — perhaps signaling something that swayed voters between primaries and the general election, or some amount of error in the data, or both.)
 

That only amounts to about 1.7 million votes. Not enough to change the outcome? I'm not so sure. It would depend where they're located.
I think the data shows that third party voting more likely did FFvC more damage than HRC...quoting myself:
I have no idea how most libertarians would tilt, if they weren’t allowed vote for the LP candidate. FWIW, as a registered LP person I voted for HRC last fall, not that it was in question in my very blue state. I think it would be hard to argue that most libertarians would have shifted to HRC if forced into a Repug/Dum choice. Lots of third party voters vote third party as a way of saying “none of the above”, which is why I am registered LP but often don’t vote that way (I voted for Obama in 08 & Kerry in 04). Removing the only equivalence of “none of the above” would hardly endear libertarians to HRC. I can imagine that Don the Con would work as a substitute middle finger to the usual “none of the above”. I will agree that most of the Stein voters would probably switch over to HRC if it was a binary vote. Using Michigan as an example, the LP got 3.59% of the vote, whereas the Green’s got 1.07%. So, I’d say that Don the Con lost more votes there by third party voters than HRC did. Additionally, HRC probably won New Hampshire largely due to the third party vote. Wisconsin’s results are almost identical to Michigan’s. Pennsylvania is harder to make a guess from the data. Gary Johnson did remarkably well getting 3.28% of the national vote, as they almost have never gotten above 1.1% of the vote. Not that it matters much, but Jill Stein did quite well as the runner up third party garnering 1% of the national vote.

In the end, I think it is pretty clear that the election results were impacted far more by people not bothering to vote, as well as from Russian meddling, and of course HRC being a not very good candidate.
 
From that story,



To be fair, they also said,

For example, Schaffner tells NPR that around 12 percent of Republican primary voters (including 34 percent of Ohio Gov. John Kasich voters and 11 percent of Florida Sen. Marco Rubio voters) ended up voting for Clinton. And according to one 2008 study, around 25 percent of Clinton primary voters in that election ended up voting for Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., in the general. (In addition, the data showed 13 percent of McCain primary voters ended up voting for Obama, and 9 percent of Obama voters ended up voting for McCain — perhaps signaling something that swayed voters between primaries and the general election, or some amount of error in the data, or both.)
Dammit, you did have to add that second quote before I could hit "Submit Reply" adding that quote.... But I can still add this funny line from the article: "And then there is race. Nearly half of Sanders-Trump voters disagree with the idea that "white people have advantages."

I think the other main point, is that people simply don't behave/vote in some sort of predictable linear progression that others think they should.
 
In the end, I think it is pretty clear that the election results were impacted far more by people not bothering to vote, as well as from Russian meddling, and of course HRC being a not very good candidate.

Bold added for emphasis - that number swamps all other factors combined by at least an order of magnitude. Do they even teach Civics in elementary schools these days? Or are elementary schools just qualifiers for vocational schools where an ignorant electorate can be groomed to go to work for the military-industrial complex or auto industry (if there's a difference), then stay home on election day and wash their hands of any dire consequences such as Cheato's gang of thieves?
 
In the end, I think it is pretty clear that the election results were impacted far more by people not bothering to vote, as well as from Russian meddling, and of course HRC being a not very good candidate.

Bold added for emphasis - that number swamps all other factors combined by at least an order of magnitude. Do they even teach Civics in elementary schools these days? Or are elementary schools just qualifiers for vocational schools where an ignorant electorate can be groomed to go to work for the military-industrial complex or auto industry (if there's a difference), then stay home on election day and wash their hands of any dire consequences such as Cheato's gang of thieves?

I think that statistics tell us that it really doesn't matter if 60% of the electorate votes or if 90% of the electorate votes as long as the 60% is a representative slice. Which it has to be since it is such a large part large of the voting population. The shear numbers steam roll over these discussions about 1 to 2% of the voters.

What damaged democracy and the will of the voters was the electoral college in the vote for the presidency and the illegal and the legal gerrymandering for the congress. The Democrats won the popular vote for the presidency, the House and the Senate and yet ended up with nothing.
 
In the end, I think it is pretty clear that the election results were impacted far more by people not bothering to vote, as well as from Russian meddling, and of course HRC being a not very good candidate.

Bold added for emphasis - that number swamps all other factors combined by at least an order of magnitude. Do they even teach Civics in elementary schools these days? Or are elementary schools just qualifiers for vocational schools where an ignorant electorate can be groomed to go to work for the military-industrial complex or auto industry (if there's a difference), then stay home on election day and wash their hands of any dire consequences such as Cheato's gang of thieves?
hyperbole aside, the basic moral viewpoint here seems to be "if more people voted, the person i liked would have been elected" which i think is a rather spurious claim, but if you can find any kind of study which indicates the demographics or political leanings on those who don't vote in order to determine how it might swing an election i would love to see it.

i'm inclined to think that if voting were compulsory and easily done in the US that elections would simply be exactly what they are now but with bigger numbers, i don't see the demographics changing if you add more people into the pool.
by and large, americans are unbelievably politically stupid, and i see no evidence to suggest there's a teeming horde of people who actually vote for their own interests but just don't bother to cast ballots.
 
Bold added for emphasis - that number swamps all other factors combined by at least an order of magnitude. Do they even teach Civics in elementary schools these days? Or are elementary schools just qualifiers for vocational schools where an ignorant electorate can be groomed to go to work for the military-industrial complex or auto industry (if there's a difference), then stay home on election day and wash their hands of any dire consequences such as Cheato's gang of thieves?
hyperbole aside, the basic moral viewpoint here seems to be "if more people voted, the person i liked would have been elected" which i think is a rather spurious claim, but if you can find any kind of study which indicates the demographics or political leanings on those who don't vote in order to determine how it might swing an election i would love to see it.

i'm inclined to think that if voting were compulsory and easily done in the US that elections would simply be exactly what they are now but with bigger numbers, i don't see the demographics changing if you add more people into the pool.
by and large, americans are unbelievably politically stupid, and i see no evidence to suggest there's a teeming horde of people who actually vote for their own interests but just don't bother to cast ballots.

Yet, the claim that "Republicans are better at getting out the vote" is oft repeated. I don't have the means to evaluate that claim's supporting evidence, so AFAIK it could be total bullshit, but it seems that there would be someone somewhere disputing it if it didn't have some basis in reality.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/20/opinion/sunday/the-democrats-real-turnout-problem.html
 
Yet, the claim that "Republicans are better at getting out the vote" is oft repeated. I don't have the means to evaluate that claim's supporting evidence, so AFAIK it could be total bullshit, but it seems that there would be someone somewhere disputing it if it didn't have some basis in reality.
well that's a true claim, but you're thinking about it wrong.

i've posted this a couple times before and i don't want to beat a dead horse or be mindlessly repeating myself, but i think it's incredibly salient to the point and i've not seen anyone respond to it as of yet, so:
for the last 50 odd years about 50-60% of the eligible voting public has voted in presidential elections, it's something like 120ish million people give or take. so that's your baseline presidential voting pool.
of those that vote it breaks down pretty much the same every election:
45% vote republican
45% vote democrat
10% shit their pants and call the feeling of it running down their leg "sticking it to the man by voting 3rd party"

now here is where presidential elections are determined:
election-to-election, 100% of your 45% may not come out to vote, depending on A. how popular your candidate is on this year's american idol, and B. how pissed off the opposing group is due to your guy having been in office for a while.
republicans are better than democrats at getting near to 100% of their 45% to come vote, especially in the mid-terms and such.
but, there's no untapped pool of people that normally don't vote that suddenly get up and vote because the republicans told them to - they're not better at voter registration or any sort of new voter systems, they just motivate their existing voter base with wedge issues and their bloc is simple minded enough to march in a horde over the 2-3 issues they trot out every year.
 
Yet, the claim that "Republicans are better at getting out the vote" is oft repeated. I don't have the means to evaluate that claim's supporting evidence, so AFAIK it could be total bullshit, but it seems that there would be someone somewhere disputing it if it didn't have some basis in reality.
well that's a true claim, but you're thinking about it wrong.

i've posted this a couple times before and i don't want to beat a dead horse or be mindlessly repeating myself, but i think it's incredibly salient to the point and i've not seen anyone respond to it as of yet, so:
for the last 50 odd years about 50-60% of the eligible voting public has voted in presidential elections, it's something like 120ish million people give or take. so that's your baseline presidential voting pool.
of those that vote it breaks down pretty much the same every election:
45% vote republican
45% vote democrat
10% shit their pants and call the feeling of it running down their leg "sticking it to the man by voting 3rd party"

now here is where presidential elections are determined:
election-to-election, 100% of your 45% may not come out to vote, depending on A. how popular your candidate is on this year's american idol, and B. how pissed off the opposing group is due to your guy having been in office for a while.
republicans are better than democrats at getting near to 100% of their 45% to come vote, especially in the mid-terms and such.
but, there's no untapped pool of people that normally don't vote that suddenly get up and vote because the republicans told them to - they're not better at voter registration or any sort of new voter systems, they just motivate their existing voter base with wedge issues and their bloc is simple minded enough to march in a horde over the 2-3 issues they trot out every year.

So, you're saying that differential voter turnout IS the defining partisan issue that decides elections. Republicans drive it better, so they win.
Gerrymandering is another thing they're good at. I think that if you handed one of those two factors over to Democrats, gerrymandering might have an effect, but turnout would have a bigger one. Just a gut feeling, though.
 
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