School Basketball Coach Suspended After His Team Drubbed Opponents 92-4

[Metaphor]

And at the time the coach called for this strategy change, they were up fifty to zero. 50. To. 0. And he told them to start playing man to man, get the steals, rack up the points.

And at that time, you had a psychic connection with the coach, and you discovered he was doing it in order to embarrass the other team?

 

[Metaphor]

The team didn’t just win. They went for steals; they changed their strategy from press to man-on-man when they saw how bad the team was and played to embarass them.

How do you know that that is why they did what they did?

She probably read the article above. I did.

Yeah, facts do get in the way of positions.

Anyone who knows about basketball, knows that presses and tight man to man defense is used to create pressure and steals while zone defenses typically do not. When you have a 30 to 40 point lead, you don't need to fast break.

Do people who follow basketball also have psychic connections with the coaches? I am curious, as the coach's behaviour is consistent with a number of hypotheses, but Rhea seems to think she knows he took the actions he took in order to embarrass the other team.

 

[Metaphor]

No. This is pointedly YOUR response, or am I missing something? Or is your point that they SHOULD feel humiliation?

My point is that runners could feel the same intensity of humiliation from losing by a large margin that the losing basketball team allegedly feels from a drubbing.

So?

So, your moral sphere of concern does not seem to extend to all victims of sporting humiliation, even in cases where that humiliation is both a foreseeable side-effect and could have been prevented.

laughing dog singularly refuses to acknowledge that any runner could feel such a thing, or if they do, they are irrational to do so. No runner is required to alter her performance because of the feelings of the less athletic. Not altering her performance does not make her an asshole, despite the side effect of humiliation for others.

More of another straw man. Runners are supposed to run as fast as they can. If that causes a wide margin of victory, that is a consequence of their goal.

To goal of a basketball game is to win within the rules and good sportsmanship. Winning by the largest possible margin is a necessary outcome of that goal.

I think you meant 'not a necessary outcome'.

You have decided that playing to your utmost is not good sportsmanship. I disagree.

Yet, the humiliation a basketball team feels from a drubbing does require a mid-stream change in performance. The side effect of humiliation is now important enough that if you don't change what you are doing, you are a 'first class' asshole.

laughing dog proposes that one behaviour is assholish when done in a basketball context, but the same behaviour is not assholish in a running context, despite the same side effect of humiliation in the losers.

I find his selective empathy incoherent.

I do not propose anything. I am stating a well and widely recognized view of sportsmanship in the context of team sports. One that has been institutionalized in the competition rules in some sport in some places.
I
Please continue to do as you do - defend assholish behavior.

Yes, you were saying before.

Of course, everyone can note I did not even defend the coach. I asked questions about why there was an empathy gap for other athletes, and why you essentialised the coach as a 'first class' asshole, from one example of one behaviour.

 

[Toni]

The team didn’t just win. They went for steals; they changed their strategy from press to man-on-man when they saw how bad the team was and played to embarass them.

How do you know that that is why they did what they did?

She probably read the article above. I did.

Yeah, facts do get in the way of positions.

Anyone who knows about basketball, knows that presses and tight man to man defense is used to create pressure and steals while zone defenses typically do not. When you have a 30 to 40 point lead, you don't need to fast break.

Do people who follow basketball also have psychic connections with the coaches? I am curious, as the coach's behaviour is consistent with a number of hypotheses, but Rhea seems to think she knows he took the actions he took in order to embarrass the other team.

People who watch basketball frequently tend to learn and recognize strategies and the circumstances under which they are employed.

It doesn’t require a psychic connection. Just a little common sense. It helps if one reads the above articles which give direct quotes from the coach, expressing remorse and also from the school’s leadership.

The coach was suspended for one game.

 

[laughing dog]

No. This is pointedly YOUR response, or am I missing something? Or is your point that they SHOULD feel humiliation?

My point is that runners could feel the same intensity of humiliation from losing by a large margin that the losing basketball team allegedly feels from a drubbing.

So?

So, your moral sphere of concern does not seem to extend to all victims of sporting humiliation, even in cases where that humiliation is both a foreseeable side-effect and could have been prevented.

Runners could feel the same level of humiliation from losing by one second.

Runners

laughing dog singularly refuses to acknowledge that any runner could feel such a thing, or if they do, they are irrational to do so. No runner is required to alter her performance because of the feelings of the less athletic. Not altering her performance does not make her an asshole, despite the side effect of humiliation for others.

More of another straw man. Runners are supposed to run as fast as they can. If that causes a wide margin of victory, that is a consequence of their goal.

To goal of a basketball game is to win within the rules and good sportsmanship. Winning by the largest possible margin is a necessary outcome of that goal.

I think you meant 'not a necessary outcome'.

You have decided that playing to your utmost is not good sportsmanship. I disagree.

Another straw man. "Utmost" includes sportsmanship. Again, something is widely recognized. Even the high school conference that to which Sacred Heart belongs recognizes it.

Yet, the humiliation a basketball team feels from a drubbing does require a mid-stream change in performance. The side effect of humiliation is now important enough that if you don't change what you are doing, you are a 'first class' asshole.

laughing dog proposes that one behaviour is assholish when done in a basketball context, but the same behaviour is not assholish in a running context, despite the same side effect of humiliation in the losers.

I find his selective empathy incoherent.

I do not propose anything. I am stating a well and widely recognized view of sportsmanship in the context of team sports. One that has been institutionalized in the competition rules in some sport in some places.
I
Please continue to do as you do - defend assholish behavior.

Yes, you were saying before.

Of course, everyone can note I did not even defend the coach. I asked questions about why there was an empathy gap for other athletes, and why you essentialised the coach as a 'first class' asshole, from one example of one behaviour.

More straw men, The only empathy gap here is yours for the losing team in this situation,

You do you - defend that assholish behavior.

 

[Metaphor]

It doesn’t require a psychic connection. Just a little common sense. It helps if one reads the above articles which give direct quotes from the coach, expressing remorse and also from the school’s leadership.

Did the coach who expressed remorse say he did what he did in order to embarrass the other team?

 

[Metaphor]

Runners could feel the same level of humiliation from losing by one second.

You are all over the shop. I could just as easily say the humiliation of the team losing to Sacred Heart would have been the same at 1 point as at 80 points.

Another straw man. "Utmost" includes sportsmanship. Again, something is widely recognized. Even the high school conference that to which Sacred Heart belongs recognizes it.

You are the one defining 'pulling back on doing your best' as a necessary component of sportsmanship, not me.

More straw men, The only empathy gap here is yours for the losing team in this situation,

You do you - defend that assholish behavior.

You do you, laughing dog. Essentialising an entire human being from one second-hand observed behaviour, and then accuse me of blathering about 'morality' when you are clearly making a moral judgment against me for 'defending' 'assholish' behaviour.

 

[Metaphor]

I've just read the coach's statement of regret. He did not anywhere accuse himself of doing what he did in order to 'embarrass' the other team.

But Rhea can see into people's hearts and she knows the coach did what he did in order to embarrass the other team.

 

[Toni]

It doesn’t require a psychic connection. Just a little common sense. It helps if one reads the above articles which give direct quotes from the coach, expressing remorse and also from the school’s leadership.

Did the coach who expressed remorse say he did what he did in order to embarrass the other team?

Did you read the link?

Whether he expressly intended to embarrass or humiliate the other team, that was a pretty obvious probable outcome of running up the score to a more than 80 point lead.

Most people would realize that.

 

[ZiprHead]

It doesn’t require a psychic connection. Just a little common sense. It helps if one reads the above articles which give direct quotes from the coach, expressing remorse and also from the school’s leadership.

Did the coach who expressed remorse say he did what he did in order to embarrass the other team?

He'd have to be a moron to not understand that would be the result. Do you think he's a moron?

 

[Metaphor]

Most people would realize that.

No, Toni. No.

You and everyone who thinks like you accept that pronouncement. The people who had the exact same prejudiced impulse that you did think that.

But not everyone thinks like you, as much as you like to think so. You see, I can think of other reasons, plausible reasons, why the coach did what he did that do not include 'in order to embarrass the other team'.

 

[Metaphor]

It doesn’t require a psychic connection. Just a little common sense. It helps if one reads the above articles which give direct quotes from the coach, expressing remorse and also from the school’s leadership.

Did the coach who expressed remorse say he did what he did in order to embarrass the other team?

He'd have to be a moron to not understand that would be the result. Do you think he's a moron?

Non. You are not answering the question. You are sidestepping and you have buried two implicit assumptions in your response.

First, I disagree that the coach is a moron even if he did not think that a 92-4 loss is more humiliating than a 50-nil loss. He may have been swept up in the energy of the victory and not even thought about anything other than how best to keep up the energy.

Second, even if he recognised the possibility that the actions would embarass the other players, that does not mean he did what he did in order to embarrass the other players.

A runner can recognise that the magnitude of her victory might embarrass the other runners, but that does not mean she won by a large margin in order to embarrass the other runners.

At best, at best, you might say the coach played as he played in order to embarrass the other team or he was recklessly indifferent to the humilation he caused.

 

[Gospel]

Defending and scoring against a player playing at 50% is learning from 50% of what's offered. Its like saying you learn as much from a punching bag as you do from a boxer in the ring.

Why do you assume that refraining from scoring is playing at 50%?

It was an number I admittedly pulled out of my ass but holding back is not 100%.100% is what got the coach suspended.

 

[Toni]

Most people would realize that.

No, Toni. No.

You and everyone who thinks like you accept that pronouncement. The people who had the exact same prejudiced impulse that you did think that.

But not everyone thinks like you, as much as you like to think so. You see, I can think of other reasons, plausible reasons, why the coach did what he did that do not include 'in order to embarrass the other team'.

I think a pretty quick reading of this thread would demonstrate that most of those posting in this thread think that running up a score in a high school game is unsportsmanlike, increases the potential for harm to come to some of the players and would cause the losing team to feel embarrassed or humiliated.

I understand that you are not most people. You certainly are entitled to your opinions. You are capable of understanding to a certain extent that it is not helpful for a superior player to play at full ability against much less skilled opponents. You do not beat your nieces and nephews at board games when you clearly could do so if you chose. Apparently you realize that by beating them every time, they would feel discouraged, possibly feel bad about themselves and possibly not like you. Why you are unable to extrapolate to a bunch of hormonal teenagers playing basketball is something that I cannot explain.

 

[Metaphor]

I think a pretty quick reading of this thread would demonstrate that most of those posting in this thread think that running up a score in a high school game is unsportsmanlike, increases the potential for harm to come to some of the players and would cause the losing team to feel embarrassed or humiliated.

That is tangential to Rhea's and your claim: that the coach did what he did in order to embarrass the other team.

That most people in this thread may agree to the claims you listed does not mean most people in the world do. It is an extremely insular worldview to think so.

I often ask people who I know have generally different political views to myself about their views on particular issues. It sounds like you do not.

Why you are unable to extrapolate to a bunch of hormonal teenagers playing basketball is something that I cannot explain.

You also appear unable to understand my actual questions. I've already noted the empathy gap that you and others have for humiliated individual athletes.

 

[laughing dog]

Runners could feel the same level of humiliation from losing by one second.

You are all over the shop. I could just as easily say the humiliation of the team losing to Sacred Heart would have been the same at 1 point as at 80 points.

Given your position, I am surprised you haven't. I am not at all surprised that you, as usual, missed the point that has been repeated many times.

BTW, I have witnessed and known runners who deliberately to increase the winning margin because in their view, that would be unsporting in that specific context.

Another straw man. "Utmost" includes sportsmanship. Again, something is widely recognized. Even the high school conference that to which Sacred Heart belongs recognizes it.

You are the one defining 'pulling back on doing your best' as a necessary component of sportsmanship, not me.

I am among many who understand that "doing your best" in a team sport is narrowly defined as "scoring as many points as possible".

You are the one making the assertion that "doing your best" means scoring as many points as possible. You appear to be incapable of understanding that for many people, that is not true. And those same people do not think it is necessarily unsporting to win a race by a wide margin by running as fast as one can. You find that position "incoherent". Good for you. I find your lack of understanding pitiable.

More straw men, The only empathy gap here is yours for the losing team in this situation,

You do you - defend that assholish behavior.

You do you, laughing dog. Essentialising an entire human being from one second-hand observed behaviour, and then accuse me of blathering about 'morality' when you are clearly making a moral judgment against me for 'defending' 'assholish' behaviour.

You are one who interjected morality. I am simply engaging with you on terms you appear to comprehend. Your defense of assholish behavior is coherent and completely unsurprising.

 

[laughing dog]

Most people would realize that.

No, Toni. No.

You and everyone who thinks like you accept that pronouncement. The people who had the exact same prejudiced impulse that you did think that.

But not everyone thinks like you, as much as you like to think so. You see, I can think of other reasons, plausible reasons, why the coach did what he did that do not include 'in order to embarrass the other team'.

You really need to learn to read more carefully. "Most people" is not everyone.

 

[Metaphor]

BTW, I have witnessed and known runners who deliberately to increase the winning margin because in their view, that would be unsporting in that specific context.

I don't know what you mean here. I think you meant to say 'runners who deliberately did not increase their winning margin'.

Are the runners who increased their margin assholes?

I am among many who understand that "doing your best" in a team sport is narrowly defined as "scoring as many points as possible".

You are the one making the assertion that "doing your best" means scoring as many points as possible. You appear to be incapable of understanding that for many people, that is not true. And those same people do not think it is necessarily unsporting to win a race by a wide margin by running as fast as one can. You find that position "incoherent". Good for you. I find your lack of understanding pitiable.

No. I said playing to your utmost will result in higher points.

Your defense of assholish behavior is coherent and completely unsurprising.

I will point out again I did not even defend the coach or the behaviour.

But your concession that acting like an asshole is indeed a morally undesirable behaviour is noted.

 

[Metaphor]

Most people would realize that.

No, Toni. No.

You and everyone who thinks like you accept that pronouncement. The people who had the exact same prejudiced impulse that you did think that.

But not everyone thinks like you, as much as you like to think so. You see, I can think of other reasons, plausible reasons, why the coach did what he did that do not include 'in order to embarrass the other team'.

You really need to learn to read more carefully. "Most people" is not everyone.

You really need to learn to read more carefully. "Most people" is most people. I did not say 'everyone'.

Toni, and apparently also yourself, think that your opinions are majority opinions, even as you ensconce yourself in a straitjacketed coterie of people who already think exactly like you do.

 

[Toni]

I think a pretty quick reading of this thread would demonstrate that most of those posting in this thread think that running up a score in a high school game is unsportsmanlike, increases the potential for harm to come to some of the players and would cause the losing team to feel embarrassed or humiliated.

That is tangential to Rhea's and your claim: that the coach did what he did in order to embarrass the other team.

That most people in this thread may agree to the claims you listed does not mean most people in the world do. It is an extremely insular worldview to think so.

I often ask people who I know have generally different political views to myself about their views on particular issues. It sounds like you do not.

Why you are unable to extrapolate to a bunch of hormonal teenagers playing basketball is something that I cannot explain.

You also appear unable to understand my actual questions. I've already noted the empathy gap that you and others have for humiliated individual athletes.

I am sorry that you do not understand or differentiate the differences between individual competitions such as track events compared with team events such as basketball.

In a race, there is almost always only one winner. But there is a second and a third place as well as a fourth and so on. Running races is individuals competing as individuals, with individual points according to placement accruing to each team per event and then totaled together with all of the events. Virtually no female one on earth--and not that many males would have felt bad at coming in second to Florence Griffith Joyner in her prime, even if she lapped them several times.

In basketball, team effort counts to help the person scoring to score points and to keep the other team from scoring. Yes, individual stats are kept but they don't matter at all to the team's final score and are not positively correlated with how well the team performed. The win is to the team.