School speech pathologist fired for refusing to sign Israel oath

[Arctish]

As I said, slavery was the wrong model, it should be Jim Crow. Pretending it was just an extra tax doesn't make it so.

And as I said, you are refusing to support your argument with evidence and references to actual historical events.

Make your case. Start by posing information on Jewish life in Palestine during the 4 centuries of Ottoman rule and show us how and why it can accurately be described as oppression. Then show us the documentation of Palestinian Jews refusing to be 'second class citizens' anymore.

Don't just say it, show it.

That whole story about things falling apart because Palestinian Jews staged a slave rebellion and threw off their oppressors is bullshit. You are preaching unsupported counterfactual dogma, and you know it. It was the arrival of thousands of European Zionists that stirred tings up, especially when the Europeans made it clear they were going to expel non-Jews from the nation they intended to create in a region where 90% of the population wasn't Jewish.

It doesn't matter that it was European Jews that provided the force needed to throw off the oppression, all that matters is it was thrown off.

That's an interesting twist.

If Iran provides the force needed to throw off the oppression in Syria and Gaza, will you still say it doesn't matter who is doing the throwing?

Ah, who am I kidding? All your arguments are bullshit. You'll say whatever you can think up at that moment to make Israel sound like the hero/victim/nuclear power prepared to incinerate millions/shining outpost of European civilization.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel was saved from destruction in 1973 by a massive transfer of arms from the US.

And in that year the modern occupation begins and lasts until this day.

With constant theft of land.

Which is how we know for certain what the oppression is all about.

You're obsessed with things which are irrelevant.

1) Israel would have survived 1973 without our intervention--it's just they would have gone nuclear and that could have turned into WWIII. That's why we intervened.

Delusion.

And that would not be surviving.

I said "could have", not "would".

Do you not think the Arab armies would have turned around if one Arab capital went up in a mushroom cloud and Israel said the rest of you will get the same treatment if you don't turn around pronto?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And as I said, you are refusing to support your argument with evidence and references to actual historical events.

Make your case. Start by posing information on Jewish life in Palestine during the 4 centuries of Ottoman rule and show us how and why it can accurately be described as oppression. Then show us the documentation of Palestinian Jews refusing to be 'second class citizens' anymore.

Don't just say it, show it.

I've already posted a list of public killings of people for being Jewish back in the early part of the previous century.

It doesn't matter that it was European Jews that provided the force needed to throw off the oppression, all that matters is it was thrown off.

That's an interesting twist.

If Iran provides the force needed to throw off the oppression in Syria and Gaza, will you still say it doesn't matter who is doing the throwing?

Iran is a big part of the oppression in Gaza. Hamas is far more of an oppressor than Israel.

 

[untermensche]

Delusion.

And that would not be surviving.

I said "could have", not "would".

Do you not think the Arab armies would have turned around if one Arab capital went up in a mushroom cloud and Israel said the rest of you will get the same treatment if you don't turn around pronto?

Do you think that massive act of inhumanity would not have blowback?

 

[Arctish]

I've already posted a list of public killings of people for being Jewish back in the early part of the previous century.

Please post it again.

I have never heard of Ottoman officials killing citizens of the Empire for being Jewish. If it's true, that would be an extraordinarily important piece of information. If what you're talking about was criminal activity that the Ottomans quashed, it's important to get those facts straight.

It doesn't matter that it was European Jews that provided the force needed to throw off the oppression, all that matters is it was thrown off.

That's an interesting twist.
If Iran provides the force needed to throw off the oppression in Syria and Gaza, will you still say it doesn't matter who is doing the throwing?

Iran is a big part of the oppression in Gaza. Hamas is far more of an oppressor than Israel.

So it does matter who's providing the force. That's what I thought.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Delusion.

And that would not be surviving.

I said "could have", not "would".

Do you not think the Arab armies would have turned around if one Arab capital went up in a mushroom cloud and Israel said the rest of you will get the same treatment if you don't turn around pronto?

Do you think that massive act of inhumanity would not have blowback?

Of course it would have blowback. When the alternative is death they would launch anyway.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Please post it again.

I have never heard of Ottoman officials killing citizens of the Empire for being Jewish. If it's true, that would be an extraordinarily important piece of information. If what you're talking about was criminal activity that the Ottomans quashed, it's important to get those facts straight.

Moving the goalposts. I never said the killings were official. Neither did the US government kill people for being black in the Jim Crow era--but there were plenty of lynchings.

It doesn't matter that it was European Jews that provided the force needed to throw off the oppression, all that matters is it was thrown off.
Iran is a big part of the oppression in Gaza. Hamas is far more of an oppressor than Israel.

So it does matter who's providing the force. That's what I thought.

No--I'm saying the idea of Iran providing force to throw off the oppression in Gaza is laughable because they're the main source of it in the first place.

 

[Arctish]

Moving the goalposts. I never said the killings were official. Neither did the US government kill people for being black in the Jim Crow era--but there were plenty of lynchings.

Make your case that what stirred things up in early 20th century Palestine was Palestinian Jews refusing to be second class citizens in the Ottoman Empire. Show us the history. Show us the reports, the records, the petitions, etc. And show us why being equal citizens in the Empire wasn't good enough.

Show us the facts. And please re-post that list.

So it does matter who's providing the force. That's what I thought.

No--I'm saying the idea of Iran providing force to throw off the oppression in Gaza is laughable because they're the main source of it in the first place.

So you won't say whether it matters if Iran provides the force to end oppression in Syria, you're just going to laugh at the thought of Iran giving orders to Hamas? Where I grew up we called that whistling past the graveyard.

 

[untermensche]

Do you think that massive act of inhumanity would not have blowback?

Of course it would have blowback. When the alternative is death they would launch anyway.

You don't have to tell me what sick fucks they are.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Make your case that what stirred things up in early 20th century Palestine was Palestinian Jews refusing to be second class citizens in the Ottoman Empire. Show us the history. Show us the reports, the records, the petitions, etc. And show us why being equal citizens in the Empire wasn't good enough.

Show us the facts. And please re-post that list.

It's Wikipedia.

No--I'm saying the idea of Iran providing force to throw off the oppression in Gaza is laughable because they're the main source of it in the first place.

So you won't say whether it matters if Iran provides the force to end oppression in Syria, you're just going to laugh at the thought of Iran giving orders to Hamas? Where I grew up we called that whistling past the graveyard.

Until recently it's been Iranian weapons. Hamas obeys those that fund/arm it. Admittedly, these days the weapons are more going to Hezbollah, Qatar is more behind Hamas.

Do you think that massive act of inhumanity would not have blowback?

Of course it would have blowback. When the alternative is death they would launch anyway.

You don't have to tell me what sick fucks they are.

So you think they should just sit back and die?

 

[Arctish]

It's Wikipedia.

Make your case.

You made a claim and now it's time to support it. You can start with showing us which article on Wikipedia you're talking about.

So you won't say whether it matters if Iran provides the force to end oppression in Syria, you're just going to laugh at the thought of Iran giving orders to Hamas? Where I grew up we called that whistling past the graveyard.

Until recently it's been Iranian weapons. Hamas obeys those that fund/arm it. Admittedly, these days the weapons are more going to Hezbollah, Qatar is more behind Hamas.

So it does matter who provides the force. That's what I thought.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Make your case.

You made a claim and now it's time to support it. You can start with showing us which article on Wikipedia you're talking about.

Until recently it's been Iranian weapons. Hamas obeys those that fund/arm it. Admittedly, these days the weapons are more going to Hezbollah, Qatar is more behind Hamas.

So it does matter who provides the force. That's what I thought.

You're refusing to understand. I'm saying that the idea of Iran providing force to help end the oppression is nonsense because they're a big source of the opposition. They're going to use the force on themselves?!

 

[Arctish]

Make your case.

You made a claim and now it's time to support it. You can start with showing us which article on Wikipedia you're talking about.

Until recently it's been Iranian weapons. Hamas obeys those that fund/arm it. Admittedly, these days the weapons are more going to Hezbollah, Qatar is more behind Hamas.

So it does matter who provides the force. That's what I thought.

You're refusing to understand. I'm saying that the idea of Iran providing force to help end the oppression is nonsense because they're a big source of the opposition. They're going to use the force on themselves?!

I understand what you are saying and I'm pretty sure I know why you're saying it.

You made an assertion that was bullshit as Harry G. Frankfurt defines it: speech intended to persuade without regard for truth. You said

It doesn't matter that it was European Jews that provided the force needed to throw off the oppression, all that matters is it was thrown off.

I responded by saying

That's an interesting twist.

If Iran provides the force needed to throw off the oppression in Syria and Gaza, will you still say it doesn't matter who is doing the throwing?

I think it does matter who provides the force in places like Syria, Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon, etc. What's more, I think you think so, too.

I think you don't want to admit it because that would undermine a related assertion you made about the thousands of armed Zionists arriving in Palestine being blameless for the subsequent strife as they worked to remove non-Jews from their planned Jewish State.

Anyway, you still haven't made your case regarding the Palestinian Jews, and you haven't posted that list you claim you provided earlier. Please support your claims with actual evidence, not just more assertions and bullshit.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think it does matter who provides the force in places like Syria, Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon, etc. What's more, I think you think so, too.

I think you don't want to admit it because that would undermine a related assertion you made about the thousands of armed Zionists arriving in Palestine being blameless for the subsequent strife as they worked to remove non-Jews from their planned Jewish State.

Anyway, you still haven't made your case regarding the Palestinian Jews, and you haven't posted that list you claim you provided earlier. Please support your claims with actual evidence, not just more assertions and bullshit.

You're being a fanatic here--I'm pointing out the problem with your position is that the oppressors can't throw themselves off. Iran and Qatar are the real oppressors of the Palestinians!

If they worked to remove non-Jews why were they encouraging them to stay and why did something over a million of them stay? That's an awfully bad job of removing them.

 

[Arctish]

I think it does matter who provides the force in places like Syria, Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon, etc. What's more, I think you think so, too.

I think you don't want to admit it because that would undermine a related assertion you made about the thousands of armed Zionists arriving in Palestine being blameless for the subsequent strife as they worked to remove non-Jews from their planned Jewish State.

Anyway, you still haven't made your case regarding the Palestinian Jews, and you haven't posted that list you claim you provided earlier. Please support your claims with actual evidence, not just more assertions and bullshit.

You're being a fanatic here--I'm pointing out the problem with your position is that the oppressors can't throw themselves off. Iran and Qatar are the real oppressors of the Palestinians!

You are battling a straw man of your own construction. Go ahead and knock the stuffing out of it, but don't mischaracterize my position by claiming it had anything to do with your little craft project.

I say it matters who provides force in places like Syria, Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon, etc. and I have no doubt whatsoever that you agree.

I say it mattered that thousands of European Zionists arriving in Palestine as the Ottoman Empire ended, intent on displacing the native population and creating a Jewish State, provided force and applied it to achieve their goal. Sometimes you agree and sometimes you don't, depending on which line of apologetics you're working. Either way, there's nothing fanatical about understanding the reality that it mattered that they were European Zionists.

If they worked to remove non-Jews why were they encouraging them to stay and why did something over a million of them stay? That's an awfully bad job of removing them.

Please present documentation that they (Zionist leaders?) encouraged non-Jews to stay in Israel. Right after you provide support for your prior claims. And please show us that Wikipedia article you were talking about.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You are battling a straw man of your own construction. Go ahead and knock the stuffing out of it, but don't mischaracterize my position by claiming it had anything to do with your little craft project.

If you're going to stick your head in the sand about where Hamas gets it's money there's no way you're going to understand what I'm saying. The Gazans suffer far more from the acts of Hamas than the acts of Israel.

I say it matters who provides force in places like Syria, Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon, etc. and I have no doubt whatsoever that you agree.

The problem here is that you are listing the very ones that are oppressing the people in Gaza as the supposed helpers.

Please present documentation that they (Zionist leaders?) encouraged non-Jews to stay in Israel. Right after you provide support for your prior claims. And please show us that Wikipedia article you were talking about.

For the first part: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/myths-and-facts-the-refugees#b

For the latter part, read the thread. I consider requests for stuff already provided merely an attempt to derail.

 

[Arctish]

If you're going to stick your head in the sand about where Hamas gets it's money there's no way you're going to understand what I'm saying. The Gazans suffer far more from the acts of Hamas than the acts of Israel.

I understand what you are saying and why you are saying it.

You are trying to twist my words to fit your straw man, beating the drum of oppression in Gaza carried out by Iran to distract attention away from the point, that it matters who is providing the force.

Leave me out of your straw man boss battle. That thing is all yours.

The problem here is that you are listing the very ones that are oppressing the people in Gaza as the supposed helpers.

Please present documentation that they (Zionist leaders?) encouraged non-Jews to stay in Israel. Right after you provide support for your prior claims. And please show us that Wikipedia article you were talking about.

For the first part: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/myths-and-facts-the-refugees#b

Thank you for providing a link. The inclusive language in the Declaration doesn't square with Plan Dalet, which as you know was carried out in the months before the Declaration in order to forcibly remove Palestinians from areas Zionists intended to make part of Israel. I wonder if different parts of the Jewish Agency were working at odds with each other, or if the nice words were there to mollify Western allies while the ethnic cleansing was being concealed. But at least they paid lip service to the idea of allowing non-Jews to become full citizens, so there's that.

For the latter part, read the thread.

I read the thread.

You said you posted a list of people killed for being Jews, but all I saw was link in post #341 to a list of massacres that included Muslim and Christian Palestinians and British soldiers among the victims:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tory_Palestine

Note how all the oldest stuff was done by the Palestinians. (They are referred to as "Arabs" in the list because there was no such thing as a Palestinian then.)

Did you follow the links and read about those incidents or are you just assuming that Palestinians were responsible for all of the older incidents because you're anti-Semitic that way?

Personally, I think it was the Jewish woman with the pistol who fired the first shot in Tel Hai. It would make sense since she drew it when she saw the Bedouin guy and the article says there was an ensuing struggle. Easy for a handgun to go off under those circumstances. And the article says it was a slightly deaf Jewish man who reignited the fire fight by shooting at the Palestinians after the leaders had arranged a peaceful disengagement, so even if she didn't start the fight, he's the one who turned it into a battle.

Anyway, if that list proves Jews were oppressed in Palestine, it proves Christian and Muslim Palestinians were oppressed, too. They were all subjected to the massacres and terrorist attacks on that list.

I consider requests for stuff already provided merely an attempt to derail.

That would sound a lot more reasonable if you were known for providing adequate support for you assertions when you first make them, and for getting your facts straight.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I understand what you are saying and why you are saying it.

You are trying to twist my words to fit your straw man, beating the drum of oppression in Gaza carried out by Iran to distract attention away from the point, that it matters who is providing the force.

No, it doesn't matter who provides the force. The problem is you are giving a nonsensical situation--Iran providing the force to lift Iranian oppression of the Palestinians.

Thank you for providing a link. The inclusive language in the Declaration doesn't square with Plan Dalet, which as you know was carried out in the months before the Declaration in order to forcibly remove Palestinians from areas Zionists intended to make part of Israel. I wonder if different parts of the Jewish Agency were working at odds with each other, or if the nice words were there to mollify Western allies while the ethnic cleansing was being concealed. But at least they paid lip service to the idea of allowing non-Jews to become full citizens, so there's that.

The problem here is you are comparing two different points in time. Israel invited the Arabs there to be full citizens. Once they chose the path of war instead the situation changed and areas causing particular trouble had their people driven out. Note that the ones who stayed are to this day full citizens.

For the latter part, read the thread.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tory_Palestine

Note how all the oldest stuff was done by the Palestinians. (They are referred to as "Arabs" in the list because there was no such thing as a Palestinian then.)

Did you follow the links and read about those incidents or are you just assuming that Palestinians were responsible for all of the older incidents because you're anti-Semitic that way?

Personally, I think it was the Jewish woman with the pistol who fired the first shot in Tel Hai. It would make sense since she drew it when she saw the Bedouin guy and the article says there was an ensuing struggle. Easy for a handgun to go off under those circumstances.

Do you not notice it was in the context of an Arab paramilitary force intruding upon a Jewish area? As usual, Jewish resistance to being second class citizens was responded to with force.

I think you would feel differently if it was an uppity black woman faced with a white man telling her where here place was.

Anyway, if that list proves Jews were oppressed in Palestine, it proves Christian and Muslim Palestinians were oppressed, too. They were all subjected to the massacres and terrorist attacks on that list.

The point was all the early ones oppression of Jews.

I consider requests for stuff already provided merely an attempt to derail.

That would sound a lot more reasonable if you were known for providing adequate support for you assertions when you first make them, and for getting your facts straight.

I've had that policy for many years in response to repeated requests for sources that were clearly derail attempts. Keep crying wolf, pay the price.

 

[Arctish]

No, it doesn't matter who provides the force.

Thank you for clarifying your position. I expect you to stick to it in future discussions.

The problem here is you are comparing two different points in time. Israel invited the Arabs there to be full citizens. Once they chose the path of war instead the situation changed and areas causing particular trouble had their people driven out. Note that the ones who stayed are to this day full citizens.

What two different points in time do you mean?

The Transfer Committee of the Jewish Agency started planning the forcible removal of Palestinians in the 1930s. Plan Dalet was their handiwork. It was implemented months before the Declaration was made. So you tell me, Loren: at what point in time and in what way did the Zionists who created Israel encourage non-Jews to stay inside their planned Jewish State? Please be specific.

For the latter part, read the thread.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tory_Palestine

Note how all the oldest stuff was done by the Palestinians. (They are referred to as "Arabs" in the list because there was no such thing as a Palestinian then.)

Did you follow the links and read about those incidents or are you just assuming that Palestinians were responsible for all of the older incidents because you're anti-Semitic that way?

Personally, I think it was the Jewish woman with the pistol who fired the first shot in Tel Hai. It would make sense since she drew it when she saw the Bedouin guy and the article says there was an ensuing struggle. Easy for a handgun to go off under those circumstances.

Do you not notice it was in the context of an Arab paramilitary force intruding upon a Jewish area? As usual, Jewish resistance to being second class citizens was responded to with force.

Did you not follow the links? Did you learn nothing about the history of Tel Hai and what led to the fight? Here, I'll help you out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Hai

In 1919, the British relinquished the northern section of Upper Galilee containing Tel Hai, Metulla, Hamrah, and Kfar Giladi to French jurisdiction. The Zionist movement was greatly displeased with this, since it would have left the sources of the Jordan River outside the borders of British Mandatory Palestine, where the Zionist state envisaged in the Balfour Declaration was to be established. Therefore, the few isolated settlements in this territory assumed a strategic value from the Zionist point of view. Still, there was a fierce debate among factions and leaders of the Yishuv, some of whom advocated letting Tel Hai and the other outposts hang on at all costs, while others regarded their situation as untenable and advocated withdrawing from them.[1]

Arabs in this area at the time were not primarily involved in activities against the early Jewish militias, but rather in strongly opposing the imposition of the French Mandate of Syria, which they regarded as betrayal of the McMahon–Hussein Correspondence made during the Arab Revolt against Ottoman rule. In a letter dated 24 October 1915, Sir Henry McMahon, then His Majesty's High Commissioner in Egypt, promises the Sharif of Mecca, Husayn ibn Ali, to "recognize and support the independence of the Arabs within the territories proposed by him (Sharif of Mecca)." These territories included the Arabian peninsula, Syria (including Lebanon, Palestine, and Transjordan), and Iraq as "purely Arab" areas and part of a future Arab state or states in the region.[2]

The Zionist militias in Tel Hai, headed by the Russian-born Jewish commander Joseph Trumpeldor wanted the area to be restored to British control which they hoped would eventually lead to its becoming part of a future Jewish state. However, as newcomers to the area recently arrived from Europe, they were suspected of being pro-French, which ultimately led to armed clashes.

I think you would feel differently if it was an uppity black woman faced with a white man telling her where here place was.

I think your arguments would be vastly improved if you made an effort to learn about a situation before you jumped to conclusions.

Anyway, if that list proves Jews were oppressed in Palestine, it proves Christian and Muslim Palestinians were oppressed, too. They were all subjected to the massacres and terrorist attacks on that list.

The point was all the early ones oppression of Jews.

It's obvious you didn't bother to research those incidents.

The very first one on the list was the fire fight in Tel Hai, likely started by a Jewish woman and definitely prolonged by a Jewish man. Also, it appears they were Russians. You posted that list in a weak attempt to support a claim about Jews living under Ottoman rule. The experiences of recently arrived European Zionists after the fall of the Ottoman Empire isn't evidence of the experiences of Imperial citizens in the preceding centuries.

The second incident is the Nebi Musa riots:

The trigger which turned the procession into a riot is not known with certainty - some evidence exists suggesting Jewish provocation, but it is also possible, though unreported, that Arab activities triggered the riots.

The third incident is the Jaffa riots:

The Jaffa riots (commonly known in Hebrew: מאורעות תרפ"א‎, translit. Me'oraot Tarpa)[1] was a series of violent riots in Mandatory Palestine on May 1–7, 1921, which began as a fight between two Jewish groups but developed into an attack by Arabs on Jews during which many were killed.

The history of the conflict is a lot more complicated that you suppose.

If you want to support a claim about life for Jews under Ottoman rule, you're going to have to do actual research. You're going to have to follow links, read articles, and compile facts. And you're going to have to cite incidents or describe situations that existed before the Empire fell.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Thank you for clarifying your position. I expect you to stick to it in future discussions.



What two different points in time do you mean?

The Transfer Committee of the Jewish Agency started planning the forcible removal of Palestinians in the 1930s. Plan Dalet was their handiwork. It was implemented months before the Declaration was made. So you tell me, Loren: at what point in time and in what way did the Zionists who created Israel encourage non-Jews to stay inside their planned Jewish State?

Once again, the existence of plans for <x> does not mean the entity that made those plans wants to do <x>.

Did you not follow the links? Did you learn nothing about the history of Tel Hai and what led to the fight? Here, I'll help you out:

While Wikipedia is ok with clear facts like the list I cited it's horribly biased on stuff like this.

I think you would feel differently if it was an uppity black woman faced with a white man telling her where here place was.

I think your arguments would be vastly improved if you made an effort to learn about a situation before you jumped to conclusions.

The problem is your answer to the issue seems to be the Jews should simply accept their second class status. Thus what's different about this situation and the blacks in the Jim Crow era?

If you want to support a claim about life for Jews under Ottoman rule, you're going to have to do actual research. You're going to have to follow links, read articles, and compile facts. And you're going to have to cite incidents or describe situations that existed before the Empire fell.

You realize data from that far back is going to be very incomplete and likely show the bias of whoever compiled it?