Science Is Destroying The Catholic Church

[bigfield]

Answer - because (theistic) science presumes the possibility/probability of a measurable and repeatable order in a world created by an intelligent designer.

Science doesn't require that predictability be due to an intelligent designer. That is simply the assertion of theists who presuppose the existence of God--a very unscientific thing to do.

It also presumes that scientific discovery will enlighten us on existential questions.

Science implicitly assumes that all observable phenomena have natural, not supernatural, causes. Whenever science provides an answer to a question, the answer is always materialistic.

Science refutes religious beliefs when those beliefs are testable:

• humans evolved from simple life and were not magicked into existence
• humans cannot be descended from a single pair of humans
• the worldwide flood never happened
• the Earth is older than the age claimed by Young-Earthers
• the Earth was not created in six days
• prayer doesn't heal people

Science can't answer existential questions such as 'why are we here?'

 

[Keith&Co.]

Science can't answer existential questions such as 'why are we here?'

It can't even answer is there a why?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Cheerful Charlie asserts that the Greeks practiced science.
I actually agree - but not the sort of science that Copernicus or Francis Bacon, the father of modern science, would call science^TM.

So...the science that existed before Christainity existed was No True Science, huh?

 

[bigfield]

I doubt Copernicus would have called anything 'science', as he predates the invention of the term by centuries.

What makes Hellenistic science, as done by the likes of Hero and Archimedes, unfit for the modern 'science' label?

 

[Lion IRC]

What if the search back to the beginning of the universe does not result in your presumed conclusion regarding an intelligent designer? Will you accept the result regardless of personal preferences and needs, in the spirit of science? Or will you go on redefining things like science because of your presumption about God being necessary to meaningfulness?

I advocate that science poses no potential threat to Christian theism.
If I thought it did, then I would be anti-science.

The bible denounces lies and admonishes us that TRUTH is paramount.
Whatever science is supposedly 'destroying' it certainly isn't anything needed for the survival of the catholic church.

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
John 8:32 (KJV)

 

[Lion IRC]

I doubt Copernicus would have called anything 'science', as he predates the invention of the term by centuries.

What makes Hellenistic science, as done by the likes of Hero and Archimedes, unfit for the modern 'science' label?

You seem to be contradicting yourself here.
On the one hand you say Copernicus predates the term and on the other you refer to Hellenistic science.

I think it's scientists themselves who draw lines in the sand and set demarcation boundaries trying to prevent various other disciplines from expropriating the word science.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

I doubt Copernicus would have called anything 'science', as he predates the invention of the term by centuries.

What makes Hellenistic science, as done by the likes of Hero and Archimedes, unfit for the modern 'science' label?

Science is an ancient word, whose meaning has shifted over the ages. In the past it has been used to describe a body of knowledge, such as one could speak of the science of cobbling shoes et al. Now we tend to define science in terms of more general fields of research, cosmology, chemistry, physics etc.

 

[bilby]

I doubt Copernicus would have called anything 'science', as he predates the invention of the term by centuries.

What makes Hellenistic science, as done by the likes of Hero and Archimedes, unfit for the modern 'science' label?

You seem to be contradicting yourself here.
On the one hand you say Copernicus predates the term and on the other you refer to Hellenistic science.

I think it's scientists themselves who draw lines in the sand and set demarcation boundaries trying to prevent various other disciplines from expropriating the word science.

It only seems to be a contradiction because you are not concentrating on what is being said.

Subtlety obviously hasn't played a significant role in your life, so it's unsurprising that you struggle with it. Perhaps a bit more thinking, and a bit less trying to be clever, would be good for you. But most likely it's too late for that. Poor thinking habits are very hard to break.

 

[Juma]

What if the search back to the beginning of the universe does not result in your presumed conclusion regarding an intelligent designer? Will you accept the result regardless of personal preferences and needs, in the spirit of science? Or will you go on redefining things like science because of your presumption about God being necessary to meaningfulness?

I advocate that science poses no potential threat to Christian theism.
If I thought it did, then I would be anti-science.

The bible denounces lies and admonishes us that TRUTH is paramount.
Whatever science is supposedly 'destroying' it certainly isn't anything needed for the survival of the catholic church.

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
John 8:32 (KJV)

So you prioritizes your fantasies higher than sciences?? Telling.

 

[Lion IRC]

What is science if not the pursuit of Truth?

 

[Lion IRC]

It only seems to be a contradiction because you are not concentrating on what is being said.

It seems to be a contradiction nonetheless.

...Subtlety obviously hasn't played a significant role in your life, so it's unsurprising that you struggle with it.

Please buy a dictionary. Subtlety is by definition, subtle. Not black and white.
Do you claim that people should instantly be able to discern precisely what any given subtlety implies?

bigfield's subtle message - whatever it was supposed to be - ISNT clear to me.
Sorry I'm not as smart as you and can't think clearly enough to know where the subtlety was.

But I am smart enough to know that you are wasting your obvious intellectual superiority talking to someone as stupid as me. And anyone else who thinks I'm as stupid as you claim won't gain anything from your repetitious thread announcements about how dumb I am either.
If they are free thinkers they will work it out for themselves - without needing to have it splained to them by bilby.

 

[Keith&Co.]

What is science if not the pursuit of Truth?

Many things can be described as the pursuit of truth. Some even as the pursuit of Truth. Philosophy, for one.

The goal is not what defines science, however, it's the methodology.

 

[Keith&Co.]

And anyone else who thinks I'm as stupid as you claim won't gain anything from your repetitious thread announcements about how dumb I am either.

Where has he called you stupid? Could you point that out, please?
Or is that something you're reading into his posts....?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The Catholic Church is still very influential in my neck of the woods, but not nearly as influential as it was when my parents were growing up. If you look at religion as a kind of currency, its value has really tanked over several generations. Among my siblings religious practice has become a hobby, not a necessity.

So it isn't that science is destroying the catholic church, but rather that the catholic church, and angels, and devils and original sin and Adam and Eve and Popes and on and on, it's teachings, just aren't viewed as important and necessary anymore. Their value has declined as people have naturally turned to things with greater value to their lives and families. In reality the value of the RCC is declining for the same reason that in past centuries it increased.

Lion's apologetic is pretty standard and pretty lame, trying to artificially inflate a currency's value by edict. Understandable certainly, but people will always, at least in a free society, choose value.

Personally I think a lot of people still want things like the RCC to be around, but they've decided it isn't as important or as valuable as it once was. They're learning they can live without it.

I should add that a lot of the "solutions" that organizations like the RCC once sold are out of date. Those solutions were in fact nothing more than comfort. People now demand more than mere comfort, something religion alone cannot deliver.

 

[Lion IRC]

Im not doing apologetics for the catholic church.

I'm arguing that whatever reasons 10 year old kids give for 'leaving' the church, claiming that it's science is a non-sequitur because science doesn't undermine the reason people get out of bed on Sunday morning and go to church.

I would say that young people use the science versus religion cannard as a convenient excuse which masks other excuses.

Admitting that what you really prefer is hedonism and materialism and selfish personal autonomy can make you feel a bit shallow and egotistical. #selfies #post-modernism #dontjudgeme

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

The point is, that studies by Catholic organizations, as pointed out by the Crux articles I posted, demonstrate that indeed, science is having an effect on many young Catholics, who are abandoning the faith. This conclusion is from surveys of those who are no longer Catholics, asking them what caused them to abandon the RCC.

I posted that because I found it interesting, and a part of the puzzle that is the movement of younger cohorts of the American population to move away from organized religion and in many cases, away from religion all together.

 

[Lion IRC]

When was the CARA survey taken?

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

When was the CARA survey taken?

“Those that are leaving for no religion - and a pretty big component of them saying they are atheist or agnostic - it turns out that when you probe a bit more deeply and you allow them to talk in their own words, that they are bringing up things that are related to science and a need for evidence and a need for proof,” said Doctor Mark Gray, a senior research associate at the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate at Georgetown University.
“It’s almost a crisis in faith,” he told CNA. “In the whole concept of faith, this is a generation that is struggling with faith in ways that we haven’t seen in previous generations.”
Gray recently published the results of two national studies by CARA - which conducts social science research about the Church - in the publication Our Sunday Visitor. One of the surveys was of those who were raised Catholic but no longer identified as Catholic, ages 15 to 25. The second survey was of self-identified Catholics age 18 and over.

https://cruxnow.com/global-church/2016/12/18/catholics-leaving-faith-age-10-parents-can/

This article does not say.

https://www.osv.com/OSVNewsweekly/PapalVisit/Articles/Article/TabId/2727/ArtMID/20933/ArticleID/20512/Young-people-are-leaving-the-faith-Heres-why.aspx


[h=2]In their own words[/h] The first CARA study, commissioned by Saint Mary’s Press, involved a survey with a random, national sample of young people, ages 15 to 25, who had been raised Catholic but no longer self-identified as such. The second CARA study, made possible through funding from the John Templeton Foundation, involved a survey of a random sample of self-identified Catholics, ages 18 and older, and focused on matters of religion and science.
The interviews with youth and young adults who had left the Catholic Faith revealed that the typical age for this decision to leave was made at 13. Nearly two-thirds of those surveyed, 63 percent, said they stopped being Catholic between the ages of 10 and 17. Another 23 percent say they left the Faith before the age of 10. Those who leave are just as likely to be male as they are female, and their demographics generally mirror those of all young Catholics their age. So why are they leaving?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Im not doing apologetics for the catholic church.

I'm arguing that whatever reasons 10 year old kids give for 'leaving' the church, claiming that it's science is a non-sequitur because science doesn't undermine the reason people get out of bed on Sunday morning and go to church.

I would say that young people use the science versus religion cannard as a convenient excuse which masks other excuses.

Admitting that what you really prefer is hedonism and materialism and selfish personal autonomy can make you feel a bit shallow and egotistical. #selfies #post-modernism #dontjudgeme

People don't want to go to church and fake "liking it" when they know it has no value in their lives. It has nothing to do with shallowness and hedonism. Helping the little old lady across the street has nothing to do with religion. Giving a person a couple 20 dollar bills who looks like they need it has nothing to do with religion. People who conflate those things with religion can only be acting out of guilt, fear and greed, and not something nobler. And while we're at it, these heavenly afterlives are the most supreme examples of selfishness, exclusivity and hedonism ever invented by human stupidity.