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Science isn't falsifiable?

ElectEngr

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I was looking at a YouTube channel, looking for new arguments from apologists that I haven't heard before and I came across this from rzim with John Lennox.

https://youtu.be/iu_WYsEDHsM

In a thread started by BenTj. ... someone posted that "science isn't falsifiable, therefore not scientific"

I haven't posted in the thread because I don't know enough to respond (I'm just following the thread) to that type of argument but wondered "what are you talking about".

Take a look. I'd be interested in your responses.

Later,
ElectEngr
 
I was looking at a YouTube channel, looking for new arguments from apologists that I haven't heard before and I came across this from rzim with John Lennox.

https://youtu.be/iu_WYsEDHsM

In a thread started by BenTj. ... someone posted that "science isn't falsifiable, therefore not scientific"

I haven't posted in the thread because I don't know enough to respond (I'm just following the thread) to that type of argument but wondered "what are you talking about".

Take a look. I'd be interested in your responses.

Later,
ElectEngr

First, its not an argument, second 'what are you talking about' is the correct answer, and third science isn't a claim thats true or false, its a method to do something.
 
First, its not an argument, second 'what are you talking about' is the correct answer, and third science isn't a claim thats true or false, its a method to do something.

Uh,
Falsifiability or refutability of a statement, hypothesis, or theory is the inherent possibility that it can be proved false. A statement is called falsifiable if it is possible to conceive of an observation or an argument which negates the statement in question. In this sense, falsify is synonymous with nullify, meaning to invalidate or "show to be false".

Seems to me that to show that something explains more completely falsifies the theory shown to be deficient, being replaced.

Else we wouldn't have the originator of the term saying in essence:

The concern with falsifiability gained attention by way of philosopher of science Karl Popper's scientific epistemology "falsificationism". Popper stresses the problem of demarcation—distinguishing the scientific from the unscientific—and makes falsifiability the demarcation criterion, such that what is unfalsifiable is classified asunscientific, and the practice of declaring an unfalsifiable theory to be scientifically true is pseudoscience.
 
"What are you talking about" was just my thoughts only...

Like I said, I haven't posted in the thread just looking for new ideas from apologist and seeing what I can find for responses.

I'm sure no one on that thread knows what they are talking about.

Later.
ElectEngr
 
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Are you referring to this comment?

So you're a logical positivist then? Logical Positivism is the branch of rationalism that posits: "Only statements that can be empirically verified have any meaning." It is an irrational thought process though... Because the statement itself cannot be empirically verified, it is self-defeating, therefore anyone who subscribes to the idea that proofs must be falsifiable subscribe to an unfalsifiable philosophy. Now, what this does is to prove that not only is empiricism alone an inadequate method of determining truth, but it opens up logic, reason, authority, and rationality as perfectly valid arguments for truth. In short, not all truth is determined by what you can study under a microscope, no matter what your high school science teacher told you.
 
Are you referring to this comment?

So you're a logical positivist then? Logical Positivism is the branch of rationalism that posits: "Only statements that can be empirically verified have any meaning." It is an irrational thought process though... Because the statement itself cannot be empirically verified, it is self-defeating, therefore anyone who subscribes to the idea that proofs must be falsifiable subscribe to an unfalsifiable philosophy. Now, what this does is to prove that not only is empiricism alone an inadequate method of determining truth, but it opens up logic, reason, authority, and rationality as perfectly valid arguments for truth. In short, not all truth is determined by what you can study under a microscope, no matter what your high school science teacher told you.

What Crispy said, it's not really an argument and "science" has never struck me as being testable, but rather the underlining disciplines that are testable (like physics, chemistry, geology, etc). An "umbrella term".

Later,
ElectEngr
 
Uh,
Falsifiability or refutability of a statement, hypothesis, or theory is the inherent possibility that it can be proved false. A statement is called falsifiable if it is possible to conceive of an observation or an argument which negates the statement in question. In this sense, falsify is synonymous with nullify, meaning to invalidate or "show to be false".

Seems to me that to show that something explains more completely falsifies the theory shown to be deficient, being replaced.

I get what ou try to say, but science, the method is neither true nor false. Its one method of many used to gain knowledge. What can be true or false is the claim that science is the best method. Its the best method we have not, but of course if we find another method that proves better at acquiring knowledge then the claim 'science is the best method' is no longer true.
 
Science if properly understood is not an hypothesis to be tested but, taken as a whole, is the methodology applied within such individual tests of hypotheses.

So there’s a category error, at the least, here. You don’t say of a whole category what you’d say of aspects of it. Politics doesn’t become absurd if there’s an absurd political ideology found within it, for an example. The claim about politics, as if it were all just one thing, cannot be true.

But plug it in and maybe it works anyway in spite of the theologian-sophist’s trick of words. Such theologians LOVE definitions because if they play the definitions game well (plug in basically whatever he claims is "properly defined" as the axioms of a logical argument) then they get whatever result of “logic and reason” that they want. But anyway let’s propose a definition and see whether it’s falsifiable: “Science is a methodology that results in well-tested theories that describe the observable world as well as possible given all the known facts”. Is it a testable hypothesis? Yes, I think it is! Not in one sitting but in all the instances of science, since they are science and there is no science-thing separable from them… testing falsifiable hypotheses with the scientific method does observably produce theories that successfully describe nature to the best of humans' current ability.

The scientific enterprise is itself its own test, but you have to recognize where the testing is done: in each and every scientific experiment. The category itself isn’t separably testable.
 
I haven’t watched that video but the theist is probably really after “materialism” when he attacks science. It’s highly likely what he’s really getting at is no one can prove there’s only the material world and has conflated science with philosophical materialism.
 
Seems to me that to show that something explains more completely falsifies the theory shown to be deficient, being replaced.
And yet another point of agreement. This is so unfalsifiably amazing!

Haven't you changed your position though?

I remember a long while ago saying here (or there) in essence that Einstein had falsified Newton, only to get much in way of disapproving comments. But, can't remember if you were one of those making these comments. But I don't remember you concurring either. So, perhaps, either you changed your position or you've become bolder.

So, either way, congratulations.
EB
 
Uh,

Seems to me that to show that something explains more completely falsifies the theory shown to be deficient, being replaced.

I get what ou try to say, but science, the method is neither true nor false. Its one method of many used to gain knowledge. What can be true or false is the claim that science is the best method. Its the best method we have not, but of course if we find another method that proves better at acquiring knowledge then the claim 'science is the best method' is no longer true.

There is nothing so profound that someone cannot use it to make an absurd statement.
 
Science if properly understood is not an hypothesis to be tested but, taken as a whole, is the methodology applied within such individual tests of hypotheses.
Science is an activity, not a methodology. It's an activity that comes with a method, broadly defined, not a methodology. But, yes, the method makes the activity scientific but that doesn't make science a methodology. Rather, the methodology that each scientific field will have results from developing and improving on the scientific method, according to historical possibilities and the economic context. Methodology includes technological means, things like microscopes, and you don't want to be unable to do science till you get one, right? But just looking at nature doesn't make you a scientist so you need to use the proper method to become one.

let’s propose a definition and see whether it’s falsifiable: “Science is a methodology that results in well-tested theories that describe the observable world as well as possible given all the known facts”. Is it a testable hypothesis? Yes, I think it is! Not in one sitting but in all the instances of science, since they are science and there is no science-thing separable from them… testing falsifiable hypotheses with the scientific method does observably produce theories that successfully describe nature to the best of humans' current ability.
The things that need to be falsifiable if they want to avoid being vacuous are claims. Any claim. So, including the scientists' claims. To be scientific, scientists' claims, i.e. scientists' theories, i.e. general relativity, quantum physics, particle physics etc. have to be falsifiable, not science as a process. And theories put forward by scientists are usually falsifiable, although I don't know in the case of string theory for example.

Your definition is non-falsifiable because of the "as well as possible given all the known facts". According to your definition, Newton's theory was not falsifiable until it got falsified. Surely, it's more reasonable to say that Newton's theory has always been falsifiable, only scientists couldn't falsify it at the time and we had to wait for Einstein.

Maybe you could look at the claim that the scientific method is the most efficient/accurate/useful etc. method to use for describing/predicting/knowing the world. It seems to be falsifiable in theory but I'm not sure in practice. But it's also questionable in theory because of the term "world". What do you mean by "world"? I know pain whenever I'm in pain and science cannot beat that. But most scientists would have their own definition of pain so that science becomes the best way to investigate that while suggesting that pain as experienced subjectively by me somehow doesn't belong to the real world. So, I would put the claim a bit differently to make it falsifiable, at least in theory: The scientific method is the most effective method for representing the material world. But of course, this is acknnowledging that there are things that may not necessarily belong to the material world. But that's the challenge. To make your claim falsifiable you have to make it less fuzzy, which may result in leaving out essential things like subjective experience.

The scientific enterprise is itself its own test, but you have to recognize where the testing is done: in each and every scientific experiment. The category itself isn’t separably testable.
The "scientific enterprise" comes with the claim that science is the best way to know/predict/etc. the (material) world. So there's a claim and I think it's falsifiable although it may be be very difficult to do it even if the claim is wrong. But falsifiability only requires that you could realistically conceive of a way to show a claim to be false even if in practice you can't do it. Science in effect falsifies common-sense theories. Some common-sense claims would be very difficult to prove wrong to most of us but they are still falsifiable.
EB
 
The "scientific enterprise" comes with the claim that science is the best way to know/predict/etc. the (material) world.
Some may may make this claim for science (and I'd agree with them) but I don't think that 'science', the actual subject of this thread, "comes with the claim" (whatever that means) that it is the best way to know/predict/etc.
 
Seems to me that to show that something explains more completely falsifies the theory shown to be deficient, being replaced.
And yet another point of agreement. This is so unfalsifiably amazing!

Haven't you changed your position though?

I remember a long while ago saying here (or there) in essence that Einstein had falsified Newton, only to get much in way of disapproving comments. But, can't remember if you were one of those making these comments. But I don't remember you concurring either. So, perhaps, either you changed your position or you've become bolder.

So, either way, congratulations.
EB

The problem with what you are saying is that falsification is disproof. Falsifications is simply that which falsifies explains more of the data than previous theory explains. So yes, I am one of those yapping about Einstein does not replace or disprove Newton. It simply explains better and more completely.

This notion was proposed by a philosopher who was examining scientific analysis so he came with a bit of true false baggage. He has since concluded that science does not actually advance through falsification, rather he concludes science extends through being more inclusive. It begins to nibble at hierarchical models of science and abstraction ladders. Perhaps everything will be explained by a physical equation.
 
And yet another point of agreement. This is so unfalsifiably amazing!

Haven't you changed your position though?

I remember a long while ago saying here (or there) in essence that Einstein had falsified Newton, only to get much in way of disapproving comments. But, can't remember if you were one of those making these comments. But I don't remember you concurring either. So, perhaps, either you changed your position or you've become bolder.

So, either way, congratulations.
EB

The problem with what you are saying is that falsification is disproof. Falsifications is simply that which falsifies explains more of the data than previous theory explains. So yes, I am one of those yapping about Einstein does not replace or disprove Newton. It simply explains better and more completely.

This notion was proposed by a philosopher who was examining scientific analysis so he came with a bit of true false baggage. He has since concluded that science does not actually advance through falsification, rather he concludes science extends through being more inclusive. It begins to nibble at hierarchical models of science and abstraction ladders. Perhaps everything will be explained by a physical equation.

The scientific method does come with inherent biases. The strongest bias is in favor of simplicity. When two competing hypothesizes are considered, the simplest is given more weight.

The astronomer Ptolemy concocted a model of our system which explained the night sky and made the movement of the stars predictable. It worked, but required the bodies known as "planets" to stop, reverse motion and move backward through the heavens. It explained the strange behavior of wandering stars, but best of all, it conformed to the accepted facts of the day.

Copernicus came along and saw a simpler model, which did not require retrograde motion. It just required a different point of view of the exact same data. It's simplicity was its immediate appeal and as it turned out, the planets do revolve around the sun.

It is entirely possible that Ptolemy was correct. The Earth could be stationary at the center of the Universe, with the Sun and the planets doing a dizzy dance within a Galaxy doing the same dance, with all the other Galaxies doing the same, but the mathematics would be daunting.
 
The problem with what you are saying is that falsification is disproof. Falsifications is simply that which falsifies explains more of the data than previous theory explains. So yes, I am one of those yapping about Einstein does not replace or disprove Newton. It simply explains better and more completely.

This notion was proposed by a philosopher who was examining scientific analysis so he came with a bit of true false baggage. He has since concluded that science does not actually advance through falsification, rather he concludes science extends through being more inclusive. It begins to nibble at hierarchical models of science and abstraction ladders. Perhaps everything will be explained by a physical equation.

The scientific method does come with inherent biases. The strongest bias is in favor of simplicity.

Not so. Time-space is a problem. The simplest solution would be to get rid of time making QM come into the explanation envelope of modern Standard model components. However the favored TOE is super string which is much more complex, includes at least 10 dimensions, etc. It also corresponds to self evident existence of time.
 
The scientific method does come with inherent biases. The strongest bias is in favor of simplicity. When two competing hypothesizes are considered, the simplest is given more weight.

That is merely a bias of some humans. And of course science is something humans do.

The model that makes the best predictions is given the most weight. If two models make predictions just as well then they are both held by some until more data is available and better models can be constructed.
 
The scientific method does come with inherent biases. The strongest bias is in favor of simplicity. When two competing hypothesizes are considered, the simplest is given more weight.

That is merely a bias of some humans. And of course science is something humans do.

The model that makes the best predictions is given the most weight. If two models make predictions just as well then they are both held by some until more data is available and better models can be constructed.

There is always someone who prefers things to be complicated.
 
The "scientific enterprise" comes with the claim that science is the best way to know/predict/etc. the (material) world.
Some may may make this claim for science (and I'd agree with them) but I don't think that 'science', the actual subject of this thread, "comes with the claim" (whatever that means) that it is the best way to know/predict/etc.
Ok.

I guess that's not something you or I could prove either way.

I seem to have the advantage that my view is obviously true.
EB
 
Some may may make this claim for science (and I'd agree with them) but I don't think that 'science', the actual subject of this thread, "comes with the claim" (whatever that means) that it is the best way to know/predict/etc.
Ok.

I guess that's not something you or I could prove either way.

I seem to have the advantage that my view is obviously true.
EB
I think you've missed the point.

I was objecting to your claim that "The "scientific enterprise" comes with the claim that science is the best way to know/predict/etc. the (material) world.". It doesn't.

You seem to think I'm objecting to the claim that science is the best way to gain knowledge about our world. I'm not.
 
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