Scientific verification of Eucharistic miracle in Sokolka, Poland?

[Seeker3000]

Hi,

there are claims about a scientifically proven Eucharistic miracle that occurred in 2008 in Sokolka, Poland.

Quote:

1. On October 12, 2008, a consecrated Host fell out of the hands of a priest while he was distributing Holy Communion. He picked it up and placed it in a vessel filled with water, in the tabernacle. After Mass, the vessel containing the host was placed in a safe present in the sacristy.

2. On October 19, 2008, after opening the safe one could clearly see a red stain on the Host that had fallen, which with the naked eye immediately gave the impression of being a bloodstain.

3. On October 29, 2008, the vessel containing the Host was transferred to the tabernacle of the chapel of the rectory. The next day the Host was removed from the water contained in the vessel and placed on a corporal inside the tabernacle.

4. On January 7, 2009, the sample of the Host was taken and examined independently by two professionals in histopathology at the University of Medicine of Białystok. They issued a common declaration which states: ‘The sample sent for evaluation looks like myocardial tissue. In our opinion, of all the tissues of living organisms this is the one that resembles it the most.’

5. The Commission has noted that the analyzed Host is the same one that has been moved from the sacristy to the tabernacle in the chapel of the rectory. Intervention by a third party has not been found.

6. The case of Sokółka does not contradict the faith of the Church, but rather confirms it.

Source: http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/english_pdf/Sokolka1.pdf

The text above is the official statement released in 2009 by the Metropolitan Curia of Białystok, which I also found in Polish on their website:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120510100417/http://archibial.pl/ogloszenia.php?ogl=190

The two professionals of the University of Medicine of Białystok make some interesting claims:

SS: If the communicant dip into the water, in the normal course of events should occur within a short time of its dissolution. However, in this case, the part Komunikantu, inexplicably, not disintegrated. What is even inconceivable - tissue that appeared on Komunikancie, was linked to it strictly - penetrating the substrate on which it originated. Believe me, that even if someone wanted a manipulation, it could not so inextricably connect the two structures.

MS-L .: The phenomenon of diffusion to Komunikantu and heart muscle fibers observed in both light microscope and transmission electron microscope for me is also evidence that there could not be human intervention. And please pay attention to another unusual phenomenon. Communicant long he was in the water, and then even longer to corporal. The tissue, which appeared on the Komunikancie, should therefore be subject to a process of autolysis [type of necrosis - ed. ed.]. By studying material collected, we found no such changes. I believe that at the current stage of development of knowledge, we are not able to explain the phenomenon studied only on the basis of science.

[...]

MS-L .: - We together noted that in case we investigated Komunikantu portion in such a small amount of collected material could be observed so much in terms of morphology characteristic exponent indicative of myocardial tissue. One of these exponents is the phenomenon of segmentation, ie. Damage to the heart muscle fibers in place inserts [structures characteristic of cardiac muscle - ed. ed.], and the phenomenon of fragmentation. These lesions are visible as tiny cracks. Such changes arise only in the fibers niemartwiczych and reflect the fast contractions of the heart muscle during near-death, dying. Another important evidence that the test material can be muscle of the human heart, it was mainly the central position of the cell nuclei in the observed fiber, which is a characteristic of this muscle. At the proceedings of some of the fibers we were also paintings which address nodes contraction. However, in the electron microscopic study were visible outlines of patches and tufts of delicate myofibrils.
In summary conducted expertise in a report submitted to the archdiocesan curia found "sent to assess the material (...) in the evaluation of two independent pathologists are satisfactory; points to the myocardial tissue, or at least of all the living tissues of the body most resembles her." And what it is in our view important - we analyzed the material as a whole is this tissue.

http://www.katolickie.media.pl/component/content/article/956-widzielismy-serce-w-hostii-z-sokolki
(Translation by Google Translate)

What I noticed while reading the whole interview is that both scientists appear to be religious persons and might not be completely objective or skeptic. Still, both are pathologists from the University of Medicine of Białystok and as such they should know a lot about the examination of tissue samples. What I find interesting is this part:

Communicant long he was in the water, and then even longer to corporal. The tissue, which appeared on the Komunikancie, should therefore be subject to a process of autolysis [type of necrosis - ed. ed.]. By studying material collected, we found no such changes. I believe that at the current stage of development of knowledge, we are not able to explain the phenomenon studied only on the basis of science.

Can anyone on the forum comment on this?

Should autolysis of muscle tissue, especially myocardial tissue, definitely be visible after the tissue spent 10 days in the water and then dried for two months on a white corporal linen? Or is it possible that the tissue was simply in a well preserved state?

Thanks in advance for your comments!

One note:
I'd like to keep this thread focused on the Eucharistic miracle of Sokolka, so I'd be nice if no other Eucharistic miracle claims were discussed here.

 

[Seeker3000]

Addition: Here is a photo of the 'miracolous' host with tissue:
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qVqiCSsNQxM/maxresdefault.jpg

I think it is taken from a Polish film about the Catholic Eucharist.

 

[Peez]

lol

 

[Keith&Co.]

A little prolix, Peez, but I think I get the gist of your position on this finding....

 

[Seeker3000]

I know this sounds weird or even silly. But in Poland this church has become a place of pilgrimage.

So how does one answer the claims made?

 

[PyramidHead]

There are probably thousands of miraculous claims from other religions that can't be true if Christianity is true. The answer to this particular claim is the same as the answer to the others: ignore them until people stop making them.

 

[Keith&Co.]

So how does one answer the claims made?

Well, it's not scientific verification of a miracle.
The science here is that the material presented to the scientists appears to be heart muscle. There is no scientific evidence that can assure us it has a miraculous source. It was not collected under laboratory conditions, nor kept secure from possible tampering, and scientists are in no position to verify that human agency never introduced the tissue to the god-cracker, either on purpose or by accident, at any point before the testing.

If they can get god to transubstantiate a cracker that's already been tested to have no heart tissues and is secure from tampering, that might be a little more interesting.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I know this sounds weird or even silly. But in Poland this church has become a place of pilgrimage.

People make lots of pilgrimages. People have made holy trips to stains in concrete that are supposedly the image of the Virgin Mary. People also buy Strobel's books.

 

[Peez]

I know this sounds weird or even silly. But in Poland this church has become a place of pilgrimage.

So how does one answer the claims made?

Hi Seeker3000,

I see that you are new here, so I will do my best to give you a serious response to a story that does not really merit one. The most obvious way to deal with these absurd claims is to laugh and walk away. That being said, let me start with your first line in the OP:

there are claims about a scientifically proven...

Stop right here: there is no such thing as "scientifically proven", please eradicate that term from your vocabulary, it is meaningless. Science works with empirical evidence, not 'proof'.

OK, moving one we have a number of claims made by humans about a miracle. This is not evidence of any "miracle" (much less proof), people claim things that are not true all the time. Of the many, many possibilities here is that someone sent a sample of heart muscle to the unnamed (odd, but common in made-up stories) "professionals in histopathology at the University of Medicine of Białystok".

In the following block of text, which I believe was translated from Polish and so may have lost some of its meaning, I found:

I believe that at the current stage of development of knowledge, we are not able to explain the phenomenon studied only on the basis of science.

Again this is meaningless. Science is a method of learning about the universe, not a book. If someone observes something that has not yet been explained, then they may use science to try to explain it. Looking at something and not understanding it is the starting point for science, not the end. If we had just given up whenever we encountered something that we could not explain, then we would never have learned anything. Thus this person appears to be fundamentally anti-science and is only mentioning science for effect.

Of course how long a tissue sample might last without signs of decay depends on many factors, there is no simple answer.

Finally, though you want to talk about this case specifically, other cases are relevant in demonstrating how people can delude others (and themselves) about so-called miracles:

Jesus wept … oh, it's bad plumbing.

Miracle Of Mary's Tears Turns Out To Be Hoax

Aurora in Alaska forms the Beautiful Name of Allah

This website could change your life for the better.

Peez

 

[Seeker3000]

The science here is that the material presented to the scientists appears to be heart muscle. There is no scientific evidence that can assure us it has a miraculous source. It was not collected under laboratory conditions, nor kept secure from possible tampering, and scientists are in no position to verify that human agency never introduced the tissue to the god-cracker, either on purpose or by accident, at any point before the testing.

Well, according to the investigation of the Metropolitan Curia of Białystok any intervention by a third party has been ruled out.

This is what I could find:

A spokesman for the Curia in Bialystok, Fr.. Andrzej Debski said the goal of the committee was to determine whether there is a "miracle". He said he interviewed witnesses and assessed whether telling the truth, tests were performed and collected other material that allowed the judge that there was no interference by third parties. - Here ends the Commission's powers - he added.

Google Translated from: http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1371,ti...gerencji-ludzkiej,wid,11593894,wiadomosc.html

They don't say why they are so certain that there was no intervention though. Perhaps they have ruled out intervention by outsiders, but I would think that they cannot completely rule out intervention by the people from the church itself, like the priests or the pastor.

 

[Seeker3000]

I see that you are new here, so I will do my best to give you a serious response to a story that does not really merit one.

I appreciate that, thanks for your answer.

Of the many, many possibilities here is that someone sent a sample of heart muscle to the unnamed (odd, but common in made-up stories) "professionals in histopathology at the University of Medicine of Białystok".

Well, actually they are named, if you go to the website with the full interview:
http://www.katolickie.media.pl/component/content/article/956-widzielismy-serce-w-hostii-z-sokolki
At the bottom of the page, there's a short description of their credentials. For one of them (Łotowska) it reads: "Department of Pathology, Medical, Medical University of Bialystok, author of numerous works in the field of pediatric neurology and neuropathology" (from Google Translate).

I also googled the University and found that at least one of them is still working there, so the pathologists definitely exist. For the other one I found another interview from a Polish news site. Of couse you have to put it through Google Translate as well:
https://translate.google.com/transl...s.dll/article?AID=/20091113/MAGAZYN/453719583 (http://www.wspolczesna.pl/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091113/MAGAZYN/453719583)

If someone observes something that has not yet been explained, then they may use science to try to explain it. Looking at something and not understanding it is the starting point for science, not the end. If we had just given up whenever we encountered something that we could not explain, then we would never have learned anything. Thus this person appears to be fundamentally anti-science and is only mentioning science for effect.

Of course how long a tissue sample might last without signs of decay depends on many factors, there is no simple answer.

I see where you are going, so the pathologist should have reacted differently, simply recognizing that the host is in a well preserved state and coming up with possible theories explaining it or maybe stating that she can't currently explain it. That would be a far more scientific response than invoking supernatural explanations.

I think a possible reaction to this could be however: If an experienced pathologist can't explain the state of preservation, isn't that remarkable? Shouldn't it be explainable if it was indeed a case of manipulation?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Well, according to the investigation of the Metropolitan Curia of Białystok any intervention by a third party has been ruled out.

Oh, that's convincing, then. The people in the miracle business feel that everyone involved is telling the truth about the miracle.

Perhaps they have ruled out intervention by outsiders, but I would think that they cannot completely rule out intervention by the people from the church itself, like the priests or the pastor.

Or even further back, maybe someone tossed the material into the batch at the bakery.
Everyone that has been involved at the church may be innocent and sincere. But that's not going to be conclusive evidence that a miracle event is the ONLY explanation for events.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I think a possible reaction to this could be however: If an experienced pathologist can't explain the state of preservation, isn't that remarkable? Shouldn't it be explainable if it was indeed a case of manipulation?

Just how much experience does the pathologist have in debunking frauds, though?

Pathologists are trained to figure out how a disease progressed in a body, or which organ failed first, or where the tumor started. Med school doesn't typically teach how to tell if heart tissue is in a sample because of magic or fraud... So if a fairly honest pathologist can't figure out a fraud, that's not really a surprise. Kind of like asking a neurologist if something is heart tissue... DOn't be surprised if he makes a mistake.

 

[bilby]

Successful frauds are rarely worried about scientists; Scientists are no less easy to hoodwink than anyone else - indeed, scientists are sometimes easier to fool, because they believe in their own ability to spot a cheat (leading to the fallacious but understandable 'If I am smart, and I can't see how he cheated, then he can't have cheated'), and/or because they are in the habit of working in environments where clarity and honesty are expected, and simply don't look very hard for deliberate and malicious cheating.

The people who frauds are really scared by are stage magicians - in other words, other frauds. If you want to catch someone who is manipulating human cognitive and observational weaknesses to give a misleading impression, the people to call in are the experts in manipulating human cognitive and observational weaknesses to give a misleading impression.

'Scientists couldn't explain the miracle' - meh, so what. 'Stage magicians and illusionists couldn't explain the miracle' - now I might start to take notice.

 

[Seeker3000]

Or even further back, maybe someone tossed the material into the batch at the bakery.
Everyone that has been involved at the church may be innocent and sincere. But that's not going to be conclusive evidence that a miracle event is the ONLY explanation for events.

I, too, prefer looking for explanations that don't require dishonesty, but in this case it seems that if manipulation has occurred it appears to have been done in the church, if you take the official story into account: A priest dropped a host to the ground during mass and then put it into a vessel with water in order to disintegrate. The vessel was put into the safe with the other hosts. A week later a nun discovered the partially dissolved host with the red clot on it.

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/english_pdf/Sokolka1.pdf

 

[dystopian]

Well, according to the investigation of the Metropolitan Curia of Białystok any intervention by a third party has been ruled out.

Which is kind of like a committee created by and headed by Silvio Berlusconi determining that he's an okay guy who hasn't broken any rules.

Not at all credible.

 

[Peez]

Seeker3000:
Well, actually they are named...

That is good, but the comment about the names was a side issue really. Much more important is the fact that there is no evidence that supports any particular source for the sample (even assuming that the pathologists were competent and unbiased).

I think a possible reaction to this could be however: If an experienced pathologist can't explain the state of preservation, isn't that remarkable?

No, no it is not.

Shouldn't it be explainable if it was indeed a case of manipulation?

No, not at all.

The "experienced pathologist" is given a sample of tissue, and determines that it has not decayed since it was removed from a living organism. Since the "experienced pathologist" has no way of knowing how the sample was obtained, how long ago it was removed, or how it was treated in that time, the "experienced pathologist" has no basis for any comment about its state of preservation. If, in spite of this, the "experienced pathologist" makes claims about the state of preservation of the tissue, it brings into doubt the competence and bias of the "experienced pathologist".

Even ignoring all that, why is it that people assume that when a scientist could not explain something, that therefore we should then reject science as a method for investigating that thing? Again, if scientists had adopted such an attitude, then they would never have discovered anything (after all, before things were discovered, they were not understood).

The claims made here are stupid. Stupid. I am not exaggerating, and I am not using the term "stupid" flippantly. They are stupid. However, even ignoring that there is absolutely no evidence offered whatsoever in support of the claim that a "miracle" has occurred.

Peez

 

[Peez]

Or even further back, maybe someone tossed the material into the batch at the bakery.
Everyone that has been involved at the church may be innocent and sincere. But that's not going to be conclusive evidence that a miracle event is the ONLY explanation for events.

I, too, prefer looking for explanations that don't require dishonesty, but in this case it seems that if manipulation has occurred it appears to have been done in the church, if you take the official story into account: A priest dropped a host to the ground during mass and then put it into a vessel with water in order to disintegrate. The vessel was put into the safe with the other hosts. A week later a nun discovered the partially dissolved host with the red clot on it.

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/english_pdf/Sokolka1.pdf

We have many, many examples of good evidence of people lying and/or deluding themselves, and no examples at all of good evidence of actual miracles.

Peez

 

[Eldarion Lathria]

Then the Romans were right. Christians eat human flesh and drink human blood. All the more reason for banning the Jesus Cannibal Cult.

Eldarion Lathria

 

[Peez]

Then the Romans were right. Christians eat human flesh and drink human blood. All the more reason for banning the Jesus Cannibal Cult.

Eldarion Lathria

Christians are also members of the only major religion (as far as I know) that worship a lawfully convicted felon.

Peez