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Scientists Are Beginning To Figure Out Why Conservatives Are…Conservative

NobleSavage

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http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/07/biology-ideology-john-hibbing-negativity-bias

A large body of political scientists and political psychologists now concur that liberals and conservatives disagree about politics in part because they are different people at the level of personality, psychology, and even traits like physiology and genetics.

All of this matters, of course, because we still operate in politics and in media as if minds can be changed by the best honed arguments, the most compelling facts. And yet if our political opponents are simply perceiving the world differently, that idea starts to crumble. Out of the rubble just might arise a better way of acting in politics that leads to less dysfunction and less gridlock…thanks to science.

I wonder how accurate these experiments are. I myself went from right wing Republican to moderate liberal over a period of time. I didn't notice any difference in my personality or psychology. I've always been a logical fact base person. I basically inherited my conservative beliefs from my family. As I got more formal education and did my own research, I became more liberal.
 
Did you read the "The Science of Why We Don't Believe Science" link, Savage?

Diversity in a species is generally adaptive. A band of hunter-gatherers was generally well-served by having a mix of hypervigilant, paranoid individuals and calm, reflective persons; warriors and peacemakers, gay and straight, risk-takers and conservatives.
In today's cosmopolitan, civilized world, however, the most adaptive mix is skewed away from the tribal and the hypervigilant (ADD).
 
All of this matters, of course, because we still operate in politics and in media as if minds can be changed by the best honed arguments, the most compelling facts. And yet if our political opponents are simply perceiving the world differently, that idea starts to crumble.


Despite physiology and genetics playing a role in political orientation, the above claim is bullshit. It does not follow that evidence, information, and argument will have no impact on political views. That is like saying that just because their are physiological factors that impact the likelihood of being obese, that the food you are around and the messages, attitudes, and information you get about diet and exercise have no impact on whether you'll be obese. Not to mention, there is way too much pseudoscience in neuroscience of behavior these days. Everytime a behavior or a psychological traits is correlated with brain differences, inherent brain differences are usually strongly implied by the researchers with no honest consideration of the alternatives that could produce such correlations (such as the fact that thoughts and actions alter the brain, so the brain differences can be the effect and not the cause of the psychological variance.
 
Large behavioral genetics studies do indeed show that political beliefs are heritable to some degree. This is not surprising since the first law of quantitative genetics is that all behavioral traits of all species are heritable.

Here's a recent study that gained a lot of attention:

K. Hatemi, P., Klemmensen, R., E. Medland, S., Oskarsson, S., Littvay, L., Dawes, C., ... & Martin, N. (2013). Genetic influences on political ideologies: genome-wide findings on three populations, and a mega-twin analysis of 19 measures of political ideologies from five western democracies. Behavior Genetics.

Abstract: Almost forty years ago evidence from large studies of adult twins and their relatives suggested that between 30-60% of the variance in Liberal and Conservative attitudes can be explained by genetic influences. However, these findings have not been widely accepted or incorporated into the dominant paradigms that explain the etiology of political ideology. This has been attributed in part to measurement and sample limitations as well the inability to identify specific genetic markers related to political ideology. Here we present results from original analyses of a combined sample of over 12,000 twins pairs, ascertained from nine different studies conducted in five western democracies (Australia, Hungary, Denmark, Sweden, and the U.S.A.), sampled over the course of four decades. We provide definitive evidence that heritability plays a role in the formation of political ideology, regardless of how ideology is measured, the time period or population sampled. The only exceptions are questions that explicitly XVHWKHSKUDVH³/HIW-5LJKW´. We then present results from one of the first genomewide association studies on political ideology using data from three samples: a 1990 Australian sample involving 6,894 individuals from 3,516 families; a 2008 Australian sample of 1,160 related individuals from 635 families and a 2010 Swedish sample involving 3,334 individuals from 2,607 families. Several polymorphisms related to olfaction reached genome-wide significance in the 2008 Australian sample, but did not replicate across samples and remained suggestive in the meta-analysis. The combined evidence suggests that political ideology constitutes a fundamental asSHFWRIRQH¶s genetically informed psychological disposition, but as Fisher proposed long ago, genetic influences on complex traits will be composed of thousands of markers of very small effects.
 
Large behavioral genetics studies do indeed show that political beliefs are heritable to some degree.

The key being "to some degree" and more accurately, not at all in any direct way but rather through something like, people differ in genetic disposition to experience anxiety and fear in response to ambiguous stimuli, and if they happen to be exposed to belief X and belief Y that differ in the amount of anxiety those beliefs convey, then one person will be more likely to choose belief X over Y compared to another person, assuming that countless other factors that impact beliefs don't favor the other person choosing X.

Also, the cited 30%-60% variance explained by genes is highly inflated by the fact that each study only looks at people within a narrow political culture in which there is limited variance in the views they are exposed to or the experiences they have. Each study used different measures of political ideology, so how liberal or conservative a person is was measured only relative to the people of their same culture and environment. Thus, the pool of variance that is being explained is only within culture variance and not between culture variance. IOW, there study only speaks to genetic contributions to whether you are "conservative" in the context of your culture, not why the relative "conservatives" in one culture are much more conservative than the conservatives of another culture. That likely cuts the % genetic contribution to all sources of variance in political beliefs to closer to 15% - 25%.
 
Despite physiology and genetics playing a role in political orientation, the above claim is bullshit.

I don't think so. If is true, then it is surely not *absolutely* true; but that doesn't make it bullshit, exactly.

It does not follow that evidence, information, and argument will have no impact on political views.

Not no impact; less impact. This isn't hard to see in practice; we've known for a long time that people don't easily give up their positions even when faced with facts. Actually, we've seen studies that suggest the opposite happens; a person with a political or ideological opinion on something will generally, when faced with facts or solid arguments to the contrary, double down on their own views.


Not to mention, there is way too much pseudoscience in neuroscience of behavior these days. Everytime a behavior or a psychological traits is correlated with brain differences, inherent brain differences are usually strongly implied by the researchers with no honest consideration of the alternatives that could produce such correlations (such as the fact that thoughts and actions alter the brain, so the brain differences can be the effect and not the cause of the psychological variance.

I think you're being a little unfair to the actual scientists, blaming them for something that the media is actually responsible for. Media reporting on science often simplifies studies and research into these sort of black and white arguments and questions, while the scientists themselves do not. Scientists suggest that their results *might* be caused by certain factors, but the simplistic media then portrays their musings as being far more firm than the scientists consider them to be. This appears to be a common complaint among scientists after they talk to the press for anything.
 
Large behavioral genetics studies do indeed show that political beliefs are heritable to some degree.

The key being "to some degree" and more accurately, not at all in any direct way but rather through something like, people differ in genetic disposition to experience anxiety and fear in response to ambiguous stimuli, and if they happen to be exposed to belief X and belief Y that differ in the amount of anxiety those beliefs convey, then one person will be more likely to choose belief X over Y compared to another person, assuming that countless other factors that impact beliefs don't favor the other person choosing X.

Also, the cited 30%-60% variance explained by genes is highly inflated by the fact that each study only looks at people within a narrow political culture in which there is limited variance in the views they are exposed to or the experiences they have. Each study used different measures of political ideology, so how liberal or conservative a person is was measured only relative to the people of their same culture and environment. Thus, the pool of variance that is being explained is only within culture variance and not between culture variance. IOW, there study only speaks to genetic contributions to whether you are "conservative" in the context of your culture, not why the relative "conservatives" in one culture are much more conservative than the conservatives of another culture. That likely cuts the % genetic contribution to all sources of variance in political beliefs to closer to 15% - 25%.

The key is not "to some degree". Pretty much no trait has a h\(^{2}\) of 1. Heritability estimates are independent of exact mechanism, which is what you are talking about.

I don't see any reason why it should be inflated. It is probably deflated because they didn't correct for measurement unreliability. Political measurements are not that reliable.

Between group differences in political opinions may not be genetic, of course. The prime example is of the US, which is mostly North European genetically, but very far from North European political views. If some of this difference is due to genetics, it must have resulted from quick acting selection or selective migration. Both are possible.
 
Ok, a few questions?

1) how do groups of people with the same genetic makeup end up living in the same place? My neighborhood is probably 90% Republican.

2) does this mean political ads should shy away from using stats and instead use psychological manipulators. I believe they are already doing this.

3) Aside from politics how does religion factor in? I've had debates with theists where I give them facts that can not be refuted. A month later I'll have the same argument with the same person and they drag out the same line of BS that I thought I beat to death with facts. And not just once or twice but many times. It's like facts just bounce right off.
 
The key being "to some degree" and more accurately, not at all in any direct way but rather through something like, people differ in genetic disposition to experience anxiety and fear in response to ambiguous stimuli, and if they happen to be exposed to belief X and belief Y that differ in the amount of anxiety those beliefs convey, then one person will be more likely to choose belief X over Y compared to another person, assuming that countless other factors that impact beliefs don't favor the other person choosing X.

Also, the cited 30%-60% variance explained by genes is highly inflated by the fact that each study only looks at people within a narrow political culture in which there is limited variance in the views they are exposed to or the experiences they have. Each study used different measures of political ideology, so how liberal or conservative a person is was measured only relative to the people of their same culture and environment. Thus, the pool of variance that is being explained is only within culture variance and not between culture variance. IOW, there study only speaks to genetic contributions to whether you are "conservative" in the context of your culture, not why the relative "conservatives" in one culture are much more conservative than the conservatives of another culture. That likely cuts the % genetic contribution to all sources of variance in political beliefs to closer to 15% - 25%.

The key is not "to some degree". Pretty much no trait has a h\(^{2}\) of 1.

Yes, but some traits are primarily inherited, such as skin color and height, while for others genes only play a highly indirect and contingent role accounting for a minority % of the variability, such as is the case for political beliefs. That is why "to some degree" is the key, because without it the implication is that the trait is primarily inherited and that is not true with beliefs and your cite doesn't support that it is. It only supports the latter kind, which is a rather low bar and is actually true of pretty much every single individual thought or experience that people have, so it does not tell us much.

To that point, beliefs are not actually inherited at all and they are not traits but temporary states of mind determined by an interaction of many traits and both chronic and temporal features of the environment. What is inherited are very general baseline emotional and cognitive tendencies that impact many things in indirect ways some of which happen to be political beliefs, but their impact is indirect and highly contingent on the environmentally and culturally determined experiences and information the person is exposed to, with which these general dispositions interact to select beliefs among the ideas and that the environment makes availableto choose from and that changes in the environment will alter.


Heritability estimates are independent of exact mechanism, which is what you are talking about.
No, I am talking about the non-genetic factors that account for the large majority of variance in political beliefs when the total variance is included across time, place, and culture.

I don't see any reason why it should be inflated. It is probably deflated because they didn't correct for measurement unreliability. Political measurements are not that reliable.

Between group differences in political opinions may not be genetic, of course. The prime example is of the US, which is mostly North European genetically, but very far from North European political views.

You contradicting yourself. If between group differences in beliefs are not genetic or less genetic than within group differences (and the same goes for differences within a group over time and as they migrate from place to place), then any estimate of % variance explained for only within a single group within a narrow time and place will be highly inflated as an estimate of the total variance in the trait explained by genes. Culture and environment are what largely determine what beliefs a person has to choose from. They largely determine the range of beliefs and the mean level of belief in a claim within a group at a place and time. The only variance the study in question even looks at is the variance around those within group means, and of this highly constrained variance in beliefs, genes account for 30%-60%, with 45% (less than half) being the center of that confidence interval. Their methods do not allow most of the non-genetic influences of culture and environment to contribute to the denominator (total variance) that they are using to calculate that %. IF all variance in such beliefs are included in the denominator, then their % would be at best 1/2 and plausibly lower than 1/4 the size they report (i.e., the center of the confidence interval would be somewhere between 11%-23%.
 
Ok, a few questions?

1) how do groups of people with the same genetic makeup end up living in the same place?

Mostly because we "end up" living near where we started and we start nearby people with common ancestors and thus higher genetic similarity to us. Also, we tend to prefer to be with people who are similar to us. Genes play a major role in making people have similar outward appearances to us, and at least a minor and indirect role in making people psychologically similar to us in countless ways. There are studies showing that when people migrate (usually for non political reasons), they wind up choosing the particular place they will live (whether the state or just the county or neighborhood within a state) based partly upon political similarity to themselves.

My neighborhood is probably 90% Republican.

While probably due in small part to genetic factors described above, that is mostly because of shared environment, experiences, and culture. This applies not only to the physical and cultural environment of your neighborhood, but those of the various places that the people who moved there came from. Note that no science presented in this thread suggest that anything more than a minority % of total variance in political beliefs is shaped by genes.


2) does this mean political ads should shy away from using stats and instead use psychological manipulators. I believe they are already doing this.

Psychological manipulators are more effective than data, but that is a separate issue from genetic influence. Most people respond more to emotional manipulation than empirical data, so it isn't something that varies a great deal with genes. What particular type of emotional manipulation a person will respond to is at least as much a product of experience-based learning as genes, so the fact that genes have some degree of influence on political views is not the reason why emotional manipulation works better than empirical data. That has more to do with the common psychological architecture that all people share than with genetic variability between people.

3) Aside from politics how does religion factor in? I've had debates with theists where I give them facts that can not be refuted. A month later I'll have the same argument with the same person and they drag out the same line of BS that I thought I beat to death with facts. And not just once or twice but many times. It's like facts just bounce right off.

Contrary to pseudo-science hype in the name of neuroscience, there is no "God" or "conservative" part of the brain or genes. Such compartmentalized notions are contradicted by most advancements in genetics and neuroscience in the past half century. Most of the genes and brain areas that are involved in shaped political beliefs are involved in religious beliefs and many other types of belief. Political and religious beliefs are within a subtype of beliefs that are more about vague abstractions with little direct impact on daily actions that would impact the efficacy of our survival related choices. This allows people to be highly irrational and objectively wrong with little immediate harmful consequences to themselves (unlike being irrational and wrong about which freeway ramp is the on ramp or which stream your neighbors wash their assholes in). Because of this, political and religious beliefs can be used for the purpose of emotional gratification, anxiety reduction, and other psychological goals independent of holding accurate beliefs about the world. Your facts bounce off of people, because facts had nothing to do with what they believe in the first place and your facts do not alter the real motives that their beliefs are serving. Again, between person variability in those motives and emotional needs may be partly influenced by genes, but are more influenced by the persons lifetime of experiences.
 
No contradiction. You are conflating within-group h\(^{2}\) with between-group. BG studies concern mostly exclusively the first, not the second.

You claim they are inflated. You have offered no reason for this. However, it is known that political measurements are not perfectly reliable, this leads to \(^{2}\) underestimation. Generally, studies don't correct for measurement error, so most h\(^{2}\)'s reported are too low.
 
No contradiction. You are conflating within-group h\(^{2}\) with between-group. BG studies concern mostly exclusively the first, not the second.

You claim they are inflated. You have offered no reason for this.

I offered plenty of reason. I am not conflating anything, you and study authors are treating within-group variance as though it is the total variance. In fact, not only are they narrowly focussing on within group variance, but also only within-context variance constrained by extremely narrow timespans and within very narrow environmental conditions. Every aspect of the physical environment from weather and disasters to wildlife and technologies impact beliefs, including political beliefs. They and you are ignoring all of this variability. The denominator in their computation of % explained by heredity is a fraction of the real variance in the variable to be explained, and since much of it is variance caused by environmental variance, heredity would not explain most of the variance they are ignoring. Within and between group variance are not separate variables, just portions of the variance in the same variable that is often and this case is likely due to different sets of factors.
It would be like only observing a group of people in a sterile and unchanging room and measuring their actions and the variables they correlate with, then claiming that most variance in behavior is biologically based.
Another factor that inflates the correlation is that genetically similar people ten to not only seek out similar environments but to seek out each other which will mean they are more likely to share an environment with genetically similar others. Thus, whatever impact environment has on beliefs will also happen to indirectly make people who are more genetically similar, more similar in their beliefs.

Bottom line is that it is just false to claim heredity accounts for 50% of the variance in political beliefs. At best, it accounts for 50% of the variance of the 20%-50% of the total variance in political beliefs. But even that is likely high for the measurement reasons I discuss below.


However, it is known that political measurements are not perfectly reliable, this leads to \(^{2}\) underestimation. Generally, studies don't correct for measurement error, so most h\(^{2}\)'s reported are too low.

It is not true that unreliable measures mean underestimation of covariance. One reason for unreliability is a lack of precision and this is a major weakness of ideology measures. They are only able to place people into rather broad categories and fail to capture where exactly people are within each of those categories. Heredity is likely to impact what category a person is in or what quartile along the spectrum they fall into, but less likely to determine exactly where in that category or quartile any person is at any particular time or any particular context. If the ideology measures were more precise and could capture that more subtle variation, then heredity would not predict most of that additional variation, so it would only add to the denominator and not the numerator in the % of total variance in ideology explained by heredity.

Think about this analogy. Researchers have a measure of "health" that is very imprecise and only can put people into two general categories of alive or dead. Whether or not you have been shot in the head is another variable and it is predictive of this "health" measure to some degree. Although people who are NOT shot in the head are sometimes alive and sometimes dead, most people who are shot in the head are dead. Thus, being shot in the head will correlate with this "health" measure. Now, lets imagine the "health" measure is more precise and can pinpoint where people are within the "alive" category. The "shot in the head" variable will have a much weaker correlation with this more precise measure because whether you are shot in the head impact being in the dead or alive categories but has little impact on precisely where in the alive category you are.
 
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/07/biology-ideology-john-hibbing-negativity-bias



All of this matters, of course, because we still operate in politics and in media as if minds can be changed by the best honed arguments, the most compelling facts. And yet if our political opponents are simply perceiving the world differently, that idea starts to crumble. Out of the rubble just might arise a better way of acting in politics that leads to less dysfunction and less gridlock…thanks to science.

I wonder how accurate these experiments are. I myself went from right wing Republican to moderate liberal over a period of time. I didn't notice any difference in my personality or psychology. I've always been a logical fact base person. I basically inherited my conservative beliefs from my family. As I got more formal education and did my own research, I became more liberal.

That's because formal education teaches you to be liberal. It's the bias, not the content. I started as a liberal myself and became more conservative as the country moved left. In the early 60's the consensus in the country was much more conservative than today's conservatives are. I am probably more liberal today than when I was a liberal but would still be regarded as on the right.

Education was not irrelevant. My liberal professors in the early '60's were anxious to correct urban legends like the idea that Hoover was a tight-fisted scrooge on government spending and a laissez-faire neanderthal on economic policy. They readily acknowledged that the muckrakers of the progressive era were largely wrong. Yet young people today seem to be being taught these very ideas that were thought old-fashioned by my liberal professors. I blame it on the radicalism of the 60's. The leftists of that era, my fellow students in many cases, were much more ideological in their thinking and apparently far more willing to propagandize so they created the likes of Howard Zinn.
 
Research of this kind has been going on for a while.

For instance, young children who are more fearful are more likely to grow up to be conservatives, while young children who are fearless/reckless and outgoing tend to grow up into adults who are liberal.

This shows just how well the right wing propagandists know their audience. They know just how to manipulate them.

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/07/biology-ideology-john-hibbing-negativity-bias





I wonder how accurate these experiments are. I myself went from right wing Republican to moderate liberal over a period of time. I didn't notice any difference in my personality or psychology. I've always been a logical fact base person. I basically inherited my conservative beliefs from my family. As I got more formal education and did my own research, I became more liberal.

That's because formal education teaches you to be liberal. It's the bias, not the content. I started as a liberal myself and became more conservative as the country moved left. In the early 60's the consensus in the country was much more conservative than today's conservatives are. I am probably more liberal today than when I was a liberal but would still be regarded as on the right.

Education was not irrelevant. My liberal professors in the early '60's were anxious to correct urban legends like the idea that Hoover was a tight-fisted scrooge on government spending and a laissez-faire neanderthal on economic policy. They readily acknowledged that the muckrakers of the progressive era were largely wrong. Yet young people today seem to be being taught these very ideas that were thought old-fashioned by my liberal professors. I blame it on the radicalism of the 60's. The leftists of that era, my fellow students in many cases, were much more ideological in their thinking and apparently far more willing to propagandize so they created the likes of Howard Zinn.

Ah yes. The "bias" that causes all those stupid smart people to blindly adopt liberalism, whereas the truly intelligent independent thinkers who watch FOX News become more conservative because they value the truth so much.
 
That's because formal education teaches you to be liberal.

Many people have defined the word "liberal" for themselves to mean something bad.

They have an idiosyncratic definition that is the opposite of what the word really means, but that doesn't matter.

To be liberal is to be open minded. To promote liberalism is to promote tolerance. For a government to become more liberal is for it to become more open and democratic.

For education to become more liberal is for it to become more expansive and tolerant of questioning.

To oppose liberalism is to oppose these things.
 
Originally Posted by NobleSavage
That's because formal education teaches you to be liberal. It's the bias, not the content. I started as a liberal myself and became more conservative as the country moved left. In the early 60's the consensus in the country was much more conservative than today's conservatives are. I am probably more liberal today than when I was a liberal but would still be regarded as on the right.
Am I reading this right? The country moving to the Left?! What country are we talking about -- or are you talking about the '30s?

It's not the bias, it's the content. Facts have a liberal bias. Reason has a liberal bias.
 
Research of this kind has been going on for a while.

For instance, young children who are more fearful are more likely to grow up to be conservatives, while young children who are fearless/reckless and outgoing tend to grow up into adults who are liberal.

This shows just how well the right wing propagandists know their audience. They know just how to manipulate them.

- - - Updated - - -

That's because formal education teaches you to be liberal. It's the bias, not the content. I started as a liberal myself and became more conservative as the country moved left. In the early 60's the consensus in the country was much more conservative than today's conservatives are. I am probably more liberal today than when I was a liberal but would still be regarded as on the right.

Education was not irrelevant. My liberal professors in the early '60's were anxious to correct urban legends like the idea that Hoover was a tight-fisted scrooge on government spending and a laissez-faire neanderthal on economic policy. They readily acknowledged that the muckrakers of the progressive era were largely wrong. Yet young people today seem to be being taught these very ideas that were thought old-fashioned by my liberal professors. I blame it on the radicalism of the 60's. The leftists of that era, my fellow students in many cases, were much more ideological in their thinking and apparently far more willing to propagandize so they created the likes of Howard Zinn.

Ah yes. The "bias" that causes all those stupid smart people to blindly adopt liberalism, whereas the truly intelligent independent thinkers who watch FOX News become more conservative because they value the truth so much.

I don't regard Fox News very highly but I certainly don't rate it as worse than the others and actually quite a bit better than MSNBC. But it really isn't just the history or even the science of a college education. It is the values. On balance, college educated people hold a different set of values than do people with little or no college education. For example, there is no inherent reason why the understanding of biology or of science that one learns in college that should lead people to support abortion while lesser educated people should oppose it. College imposes a different value system on the students than they get from their communities. The process is subtle, but it is very significant.
 
That's because formal education teaches you to be liberal.

Many people have defined the word "liberal" for themselves to mean something bad.

They have an idiosyncratic definition that is the opposite of what the word really means, but that doesn't matter.

To be liberal is to be open minded. To promote liberalism is to promote tolerance. For a government to become more liberal is for it to become more open and democratic.

For education to become more liberal is for it to become more expansive and tolerant of questioning.

To oppose liberalism is to oppose these things.

While what you say is true regarding the general usage of the term "liberal," it really has nothing to do with the political meaning of the term, and it is the political meaning that was introduced into this discussion. There is certain nothing preventing someone from being "liberal" in the sense in which you have defined the term while being conservative in the political sense in which that term is understood.
 
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