SCOTUS gay rights case

[steve_bank]

If someone has a business where anybody can walk and buy something no one can be denied service. If you have a restaurant you can not deny service.

Can you be forced to cater a gay wedding? I'd say no.

If someone can be forced to do custom work for gays, then can a Jew be forces to take work for a Neo Nazi?

Equal protection under the law.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/05/politics/supreme-court-same-sex-couples-lorie-smith/index.html

The Supreme Court will revisit the intersection of LGBTQ rights and religious liberty on Monday, when it takes up the case of a graphic designer who seeks to start a website business to celebrate weddings – but does not want to work with same-sex couples.

The case comes as supporters of LGBTQ rights fear the 6-3 conservative majority – fresh off its decision to reverse a near 50-year-old abortion precedent – may be setting its sights on ultimately reversing a landmark 2015 opinion called Obergefell v. Hodges that cleared the way for same-sex marriage nationwide.

 

[Jarhyn]

Yet again it is a matter of "I won't serve to or work for THEM" when the only right such people have is "I won't draw/bake/sell THAT"

You have a power over what you sell, but not over who you sell it to.

Sell custom cakes? Your restrictions should be based on styles of cakes and things you won't put on them.

Refusing to make a black and red cake with racially insensitive stuff on it or celebrating hostility to minorities is reasonable.

Refusing to make a birthday cake the same as the one ordered by the non-Nazi, for someone who is Nazi, is not reasonable.

If your rule is based on "who someone is" rather than "what you are selling them", then it is not a reasonable rule.

The one exception is when "who someone is" is "someone banned from my shop for cause", and even then "someone who is banned from my shop for cause" still ought have the right to hire a third party to do purchasing so long as the third party does not repeat the cause for being banned!

 

[steve_bank]

So if I am a Jewish sculptor and a Neo Nazi wants to hire me to make a statute of Hitler, Goebbels, and Himmler I can not refuse?

It is a tricky issue not reducible to a black and white dichotomy.

 

[Jarhyn]

So if I am a Jewish sculptor and a Neo Nazi wants to hire me to make a statute of Hitler, Goebbels, and Himmler I can not refuse?

Refusing to make a black and red cake with racially insensitive stuff on it or celebrating hostility to minorities is reasonable.

Quit JAQing.

 

[steve_bank]

If you are a gay web site designer and is asked to design an anti gay site for Christian extremists should you be legally compelled to do so?

If you are a black sculptor should you be legally required to create a statue of Robert E Lee for a white supremacist?

Yes no questions.

I say no.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If someone has a business where anybody can walk and buy something no one can be denied service. If you have a restaurant you can not deny service.

Can you be forced to cater a gay wedding? I'd say no.

If someone can be forced to do custom work for gays, then can a Jew be forces to take work for a Neo Nazi?

Ah... the good ole gay -> Nazi analogy. The trouble with the analogy is that it is pretty ridiculous and easily substitued.

If whites have to serve black people, then they can be forced to work for a Nazi party.

Maybe it is time to recognize that Nazis aren't, and will never be... (hopefully), a special class.

Equal protection under the law.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/05/politics/supreme-court-same-sex-couples-lorie-smith/index.html

The Supreme Court will revisit the intersection of LGBTQ rights and religious liberty on Monday, when it takes up the case of a graphic designer who seeks to start a website business to celebrate weddings – but does not want to work with same-sex couples.

The case comes as supporters of LGBTQ rights fear the 6-3 conservative majority – fresh off its decision to reverse a near 50-year-old abortion precedent – may be setting its sights on ultimately reversing a landmark 2015 opinion called Obergefell v. Hodges that cleared the way for same-sex marriage nationwide.

15 years ago, the question would be, what is the constitutional guidance regarding corporations (which aren't people) and being allowed to withhold services... to an extent that if enough companies did such a thing that you end up with an underserved segment of the population.

Today, SCOTUS will be deciding whether to say gays are unconstitutional. Roberts will merely want to rule that people can discriminate against other people as long as the discrimination comes from a very old dusty book. The other five justices will rule gays don't actually exist. It'll be 6-3 and our country will be a little more "free" to discriminate against people.

The interesting thing about this case is that in Dobbs, SCOTUS was asked to rule if a shorter cut off period was legitimate for abortion. They ignored that question and just overruled Roe v Wade. So, it'll be interesting how far this court goes. Does it merely say gays can be discriminated against by true believers, does it say gay marriage isn't a protected right, does it say gay sex can be recriminalized via saying gays have no rights as to their personal behavior as it relates to being gay?

This new SCOTUS really makes things interesting because any of the above can be true. The old days of kicking the can down the road or taking 2 years to rule that the applicant has no standing are over. It is open season for broad sweeping rulings to constitutional issues not being questioned.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So if I am a Jewish sculptor and a Neo Nazi wants to hire me to make a statute of Hitler, Goebbels, and Himmler I can not refuse?

If the Jewish sculptor makes statues of Hitler, Goebbels, and Himmler, they would be required by law to sell them to Neo Nazis too. Why is this so hard to understand?

 

[Jarhyn]

If you are a gay web site designer and is asked to design an anti gay site for Christian extremists should you be legally compelled to do so?

If you are a black sculptor should you be legally required to create a statue of Robert E Lee for a white supremacist?

Refusing to make a black and red cake with racially insensitive stuff on it or celebrating hostility to minorities is reasonable.

Refusing to make a birthday cake the same as the one ordered by the non-Nazi, for someone who is Nazi, is not reasonable.

More JAQing.

 

[Metaphor]

Bonauto also warned of a slippery slope.
"Are you going to have the Protestant baker who doesn’t want to make the First Communion cake?” Bonauto said. “Do you want to have the school photographer who has their business but they don’t want to take pictures of certain kids?”

This imagined dystopia. Exactly how long would a school photographer who refuses to photograph certain children last?

And why would it be wrong for somebody not to make a First Communion cake?

 

[bilby]

So if I am a Jewish sculptor and a Neo Nazi wants to hire me to make a statute of Hitler, Goebbels, and Himmler I can not refuse?

Not if you have previously made statues of Hitler, Goebbels, and Himmler for non-Nazi customers, no, you can't refuse.

If you haven't, then yes, you can refuse.

 

[Metaphor]

So if I am a Jewish sculptor and a Neo Nazi wants to hire me to make a statute of Hitler, Goebbels, and Himmler I can not refuse?

Not if you have previously made statues of Hitler, Goebbels, and Himmler for non-Nazi customers, no, you can't refuse.

If you haven't, then yes, you can refuse.

So, if you are commissioned to, say, draw a political cartoon where Hitler and Trump are eating Big Macs and you do it, then you can't refuse any cartoon that involves Hitler or Trump, since you drew them in a cartoon before?

 

[bilby]

If you are a gay web site designer and is asked to design an anti gay site for Christian extremists should you be legally compelled to do so?

Only if you previously designed anti-gay websites for non-Christians.

If you are a black sculptor should you be legally required to create a statue of Robert E Lee for a white supremacist?

Only if you are in the business of selling Robert E Lee statues, but to date have only sold them to people who are not white supremacists.

FFS, this stuff isn't even difficult, unless you are incompetent to recognise a simple false dichotomy fallacy.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So if I am a Jewish sculptor and a Neo Nazi wants to hire me to make a statute of Hitler, Goebbels, and Himmler I can not refuse?

Not if you have previously made statues of Hitler, Goebbels, and Himmler for non-Nazi customers, no, you can't refuse.

If you haven't, then yes, you can refuse.

So, if you are commissioned to, say, draw a political cartoon where Hitler and Trump are eating Big Macs and you do it, then you can't refuse any cartoon that involves Hitler or Trump, since you drew them in a cartoon before?

Meanwhile in the world of throw every hypothetical at the wall and hope it sticks...

The point is, in general, people aren't allowed to withhold services they offer to specific people. This is about to change thanks to a radical SCOTUS that feels the freedom to discriminate a client is more important than the right not be discriminated against.

 

[Metaphor]

So if I am a Jewish sculptor and a Neo Nazi wants to hire me to make a statute of Hitler, Goebbels, and Himmler I can not refuse?

Not if you have previously made statues of Hitler, Goebbels, and Himmler for non-Nazi customers, no, you can't refuse.

If you haven't, then yes, you can refuse.

So, if you are commissioned to, say, draw a political cartoon where Hitler and Trump are eating Big Macs and you do it, then you can't refuse any cartoon that involves Hitler or Trump, since you drew them in a cartoon before?

Meanwhile in the world of throw every hypothetical at the wall and hope it sticks...

So, what was the answer to my question?

If I understand bilby's point, if you've taken a political cartoon commission that involves Hitler and/or Trump, you must take all such commissions. You have provided the 'I make political cartoons on commission' product, have you not?

The point is, in general, people aren't allowed to withhold services they offer to specific people. This is about to change thanks to a radical SCOTUS that feels the freedom to discriminate a client is more important than the right not be discriminated against.

 

[Oleg]

If you are a gay web site designer and is asked to design an anti gay site for Christian extremists should you be legally compelled to do so?

If you are a black sculptor should you be legally required to create a statue of Robert E Lee for a white supremacist?

Yes no questions.

I say no.

It's about compelled speech. The whole point of the the 1st Amendment and free speech is to protect unpopular speech. Popular speech needs no protection. If a baker is forced to make a bespoke cake with a message he disagrees with, then social media platforms can't ban users for political message either.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So if I am a Jewish sculptor and a Neo Nazi wants to hire me to make a statute of Hitler, Goebbels, and Himmler I can not refuse?

Not if you have previously made statues of Hitler, Goebbels, and Himmler for non-Nazi customers, no, you can't refuse.

If you haven't, then yes, you can refuse.

So, if you are commissioned to, say, draw a political cartoon where Hitler and Trump are eating Big Macs and you do it, then you can't refuse any cartoon that involves Hitler or Trump, since you drew them in a cartoon before?

Meanwhile in the world of throw every hypothetical at the wall and hope it sticks...

So, what was the answer to my question?

Marisa Tomei comes to mind from My Cousin Vinnie.

If I understand bilby's point, if you've taken a political cartoon commission that involves Hitler and/or Trump, you must take all such commissions. You have provided the 'I make political cartoons on commission' product, have you not?

bilby's post had nothing to do with political cartoons, so you extrapolated well beyond what bilby stated, in order to try to make some sort of point. Again, this is about the real world. While hypotheticals can be useful, you have employed them merely for obfuscation purposes.

The question is, are gay people considered low enough class that their rights to privileges aren't protected under the US Constitution. If this cake were for a black wedding couple, would it be legal to deny the sale of the wedding cake to them? If not, why the difference?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If you are a gay web site designer and is asked to design an anti gay site for Christian extremists should you be legally compelled to do so?

If you are a black sculptor should you be legally required to create a statue of Robert E Lee for a white supremacist?

Yes no questions.

I say no.

It's about compelled speech. The whole point of the the 1st Amendment and free speech is to protect unpopular speech. Popular speech needs no protection. If a baker is forced to make a bespoke cake with a message he disagrees with, then social media platforms can't ban users for political message either.

Bespoke cake? Where the heck do you people come up with this stuff? Cakes aren't speech. Wedding cakes often lack any text at all. No one in the US has ever looked at a Wedding Cake and thought, "Man, the baker must truly approve of this marriage."

 

[Metaphor]

So if I am a Jewish sculptor and a Neo Nazi wants to hire me to make a statute of Hitler, Goebbels, and Himmler I can not refuse?

Not if you have previously made statues of Hitler, Goebbels, and Himmler for non-Nazi customers, no, you can't refuse.

If you haven't, then yes, you can refuse.

So, if you are commissioned to, say, draw a political cartoon where Hitler and Trump are eating Big Macs and you do it, then you can't refuse any cartoon that involves Hitler or Trump, since you drew them in a cartoon before?

Meanwhile in the world of throw every hypothetical at the wall and hope it sticks...

So, what was the answer to my question?

Marisa Tomei comes to mind from My Cousin Vinnie.

If I understand bilby's point, if you've taken a political cartoon commission that involves Hitler and/or Trump, you must take all such commissions. You have provided the 'I make political cartoons on commission' product, have you not?

bilby's post had nothing to do with political cartoons, so you extrapolated well beyond what bilby stated, in order to try to make some sort of point. Again, this is about the real world. While hypotheticals can be useful, you have employed them merely for obfuscation purposes.

Okay, so you don't want to answer my question.

 

[Oleg]

If you are a gay web site designer and is asked to design an anti gay site for Christian extremists should you be legally compelled to do so?

If you are a black sculptor should you be legally required to create a statue of Robert E Lee for a white supremacist?

Yes no questions.

I say no.

It's about compelled speech. The whole point of the the 1st Amendment and free speech is to protect unpopular speech. Popular speech needs no protection. If a baker is forced to make a bespoke cake with a message he disagrees with, then social media platforms can't ban users for political message either.

Bespoke cake? Where the heck do you people come up with this stuff? Cakes aren't speech. Wedding cakes often lack any text at all. No one in the US has ever looked at a Wedding Cake and thought, "Man, the baker must truly approve of this marriage."

Every wedding cake is a bespoke cake unless you get a generic one from the local grocery.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If you are a gay web site designer and is asked to design an anti gay site for Christian extremists should you be legally compelled to do so?

If you are a black sculptor should you be legally required to create a statue of Robert E Lee for a white supremacist?

Yes no questions.

I say no.

It's about compelled speech. The whole point of the the 1st Amendment and free speech is to protect unpopular speech. Popular speech needs no protection. If a baker is forced to make a bespoke cake with a message he disagrees with, then social media platforms can't ban users for political message either.

Bespoke cake? Where the heck do you people come up with this stuff? Cakes aren't speech. Wedding cakes often lack any text at all. No one in the US has ever looked at a Wedding Cake and thought, "Man, the baker must truly approve of this marriage."

Every wedding cake is a bespoke cake unless you get a generic one from the local grocery.

Every cake is "bespoke" if ordered. That isn't relevant as to whether someone is allowed to deny arbitrary customers service.