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SCOTUS rules in favor of LGBT worker protections

Yeah, from what i hear, one of the arguments against allowing interracial marriages was the slippery slope that it would make gay marriages easier.
Funny, though, i don't remember any legal argument quoting 'since we allow miscegenation....'

I never heard any, either, but it does have something to do with my support for gay marriage.

I am in an interracial marriage and alternatives wouldn't have worked because they wouldn't have provided a green card. Even though I don't attach much importance to marriage per se it was vitally important to us--thus no doubt it would be vitally important to some others. To have the love of your life ripped away because of unconstitutional laws based on religion would be horribly unfair. (And for those who say don't date foreigners--out relationship is one of those cases where proximity turns into a whole lot more. Neither of us sought out the other as a prospective partner, our hearts had their own ideas.) Going back in time less than twice the duration of our marriage you can find states where it would have been illegal.
 
Why on earth would you want to invoke what’s usually taken to be a fallacy unless clearly demonstrated otherwise?

[facepalm goes here]

Folks who want pet brothels legalized dont see it as a slippery slope.
They see this "expansion of sex civil rights" as a great victory.

The man-boy love (sex) lobby would also be celebrating this trail blazing victory on the Supreme Court.

Your side doesn't seem to understand the important aspect of consent.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but in the case of beastiality, many times it's the human giving consent.

Also, you must surely understand that age of (sexual) consent is wildly subjective.

In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the LGBTQI lobby has done quite a lot of work to lower the age of consent.
It's the LGBTQI lobby which advocates for the rights of gay (underage) kids to express their sexuality.

NAMBLA has no problem with that.
 
Why on earth would you want to invoke what’s usually taken to be a fallacy unless clearly demonstrated otherwise?

[facepalm goes here]

Folks who want pet brothels legalized dont see it as a slippery slope.
They see this "expansion of sex civil rights" as a great victory.

The man-boy love (sex) lobby would also be celebrating this trail blazing victory on the Supreme Court.

Your side doesn't seem to understand the important aspect of consent.
As underlined above....
 
Yeah, from what i hear, one of the arguments against allowing interracial marriages was the slippery slope that it would make gay marriages easier.
Funny, though, i don't remember any legal argument quoting 'since we allow miscegenation....'

I never heard any, either, but it does have something to do with my support for gay marriage.
For me, it's not that legalizing one made the other acceptable. But i am open to both for the same reason, which is that i don't think it's anyone's business who i fuck, as two consenting adults. I've had religious laws quoted to me, really bad science, other religions' laws, really bad non-science, really bad English, and historical fanfiction, none of which changed my mind in either case.
So there's no slippery slope, as it did not matter which came first. Same argu,ent in both.
 
Your side doesn't seem to understand the important aspect of consent.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but in the case of beastiality, many times it's the human giving consent.

Also, you must surely understand that age of (sexual) consent is wildly subjective.

In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the LGBTQI lobby has done quite a lot of work to lower the age of consent.
It's the LGBTQI lobby which advocates for the rights of gay (underage) kids to express their sexuality.

NAMBLA has no problem with that.

Wow. You're out of touch even from the perspective of someone who likes feral furry porn.

Animals cannot give "consent" because quality of consent is a function of consensual symmetry: a child could consent to things with a child because they are both roughly symmetrical in their understanding and ability to understand. A dog can consent to another dog much for the same reason. But a dog cannot consent with a human because they have no ability to understand what the fuck sex means to people and how that changes things for and with us, and we don't understand much the same with regards to dogs.

As for age of consent, we err on the side of caution because there is too much outside ambiguity between "consent" and "grooming". That ambiguity, much like for racist jokes, puts the "ambiguous" side over the line because in this setting an appearance of unethical behavior is to be considered unethical.

As to age of consent, I would sooner see symmetry between genders on treatment there. I would sooner see earlier and higher quality sex education, so that younger people make more responsible decisions, as when they get that, more choose to delay sex.
 
Animals cannot give "consent"

Not even to each other?
WOW. I need to watch more Discovery Channel

]https://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/humans-are-animals-too-a-whirlwind-tour-of-cognitive-biology[
 
Animals cannot give "consent"

Not even to each other?
WOW. I need to watch more Discovery Channel

]https://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/humans-are-animals-too-a-whirlwind-tour-of-cognitive-biology[

And apparently, Lions cannot read. Read the whole paragraph. I know it's a lot of words, but I have faith in you.
 
Animals cannot give "consent"

Not even to each other?
WOW. I need to watch more Discovery Channel

]https://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/humans-are-animals-too-a-whirlwind-tour-of-cognitive-biology[

And apparently, Lions cannot read. Read the whole paragraph. I know it's a lot of words, but I have faith in you.
Faith? That's often a dirty word to an internet apologist. It means you replaced religion in your heart with faith in science.
Except when it's used as a 'get out of supporting your argument' card for the faithful.
 
Your side doesn't seem to understand the important aspect of consent.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but in the case of beastiality, many times it's the human giving consent.

Also, you must surely understand that age of (sexual) consent is wildly subjective.

In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the LGBTQI lobby has done quite a lot of work to lower the age of consent.
It's the LGBTQI lobby which advocates for the rights of gay (underage) kids to express their sexuality.

You're mistaken. What they have advocated for is to have the same age of consent as for the corresponding heterosexual acts.


NAMBLA isn't representative of the LGBT lobby at all. It's like using Jim Jones as representing Christianity.
 
Yay! Finally a piece of good news. And, surprisingly, two judges who are considered conservatives voted in favor of protecting the civil rights of LGBT citizens.

An unexpected gift to start off my morning! Thank god.
Nobody who read Gorsuch's questions to the litigants at oral arguments last year should be surprised by this outcome. Once he proved he knew how to reason and was willing to, the ruling was a foregone conclusion.
 
Yay! Finally a piece of good news. And, surprisingly, two judges who are considered conservatives voted in favor of protecting the civil rights of LGBT citizens.

An unexpected gift to start off my morning! Thank god.
Nobody who read Gorsuch's questions to the litigants at oral arguments last year should be surprised by this outcome. Once he proved he knew how to reason and was willing to, the ruling was a foregone conclusion.

There are no foregone conclusions on the Court these days.
 
They argued, I believe, that Sex originally meant with penis or with vagina. So they argument is about original intent of the law... and if Congress wants to cover other meanings of sex (gender), they can pass a law doing as such. Of course, "intent" is a fuzzy word, even if Madison pops in and says otherwise.

The original word might have meant "X", but the law intended to reduce gender based discrimination and our understanding of such a concept has expanded greatly. It would seem obtuse for SCOTUS to rule that the inclusion of this protection should be limited to others when the original intent was broader (not stricter protection). After all Alito, if Congress meant to allow discimination of LGBT people, Congress could pass a law.
In case anyone cares, the actual arguments are here:

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/17-1618_hfci.pdf

Like I said:
Justice Alito dissent said:
<a bunch of stuff not like what JH said>
The original intent of the law was not in dispute -- both sides agreed that the 1964 Congress did not intend to ban discrimination against gay or trans people. Whether original intent of the law should be the deciding criterion for the court was also not in dispute -- both sides agreed that original intent is irrelevant. Whether it is appropriate for the court to expand the meaning of "sex" to align with modern understanding of it was also not in dispute -- both sides agreed the SCOTUS has no authority to do that. Whether the government should protect LGBT people from discrimination was also not in dispute -- both sides agreed that it should.

This was a technical dispute over the reasoning principles courts ought to use to figure out whether the wording of Title VII logically implies that it's illegal to fire people for being gay or trans, going by the way those words were commonly understood in 1964. Both sides agreed that if that wording has that implication, then the Court must protect gay and trans people from being fired for it. Both sides agreed that if that wording does not have that implication, then the Court must not protect gay and trans people from being fired for it, and it's a modern Congress's job to pass new legislation to protect them. Both sides agreed that both sides' shared desire for gay and trans people not to be fired for it isn't enough to give the SCOTUS the legal authority to stop it. And both sides agreed that Congress's purpose of broadening worker protections does not authorize the court to make up whatever further broadenings it pleases.

Poor Alito, the expansion of human rights must sicken him terribly.
No, the expansion of human rights does not sicken him. He wants human rights to be expanded. Alito's concern in this case is with stopping the U.S. government from evolving into an operation more like the government of Iran -- a country without separation of powers, where democratically elected legislators are not an effective check on an imperial judiciary. He perceives the court majority to be turning America into a theocracy where unelected judges are able to impose the tenets of Progressivism on the country without the people getting a vote about it. And he perceives Gorsuch's argument that the 1964 law already forbade discriminating against gay and trans people to be mere window dressing, not the majority's real reason for their ruling. He thinks their real reason is they want human rights to be expanded, and they're engaging in an unconstitutional power grab to expand them. He's fighting them, even though philosophically he is sympathetic to their aim, because he doesn't believe the ends justify the means and he's against unconstitutional power grabs.

Alito is in the wrong, of course. But the reason he's in the wrong is that Gorsuch's argument, window dressing or not, is legally correct. Maybe the majority really are engaging in an unconstitutional power grab. But if they are, Bostock v. Clayton County isn't the case they're doing it in.

Justice Alito dissent said:
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits employment discrimination on any of five specified grounds: “race,color, religion, sex, [and] national origin.” 42 U. S. C.§2000e–2(a)(1). Neither “sexual orientation” nor “gender identity” appears on that list. For the past 45 years, bills have been introduced in Congress to add “sexual orientation” to the list,1 and in recent years, bills have included “gender identity” as well.2 But to date, none has passed both Houses.

Last year, the House of Representatives passed a bill that would amend Title VII by defining sex discrimination to include both “sexual orientation” and “gender identity,” H. R.5, 116th Cong., 1st Sess. (2019), but the bill has stalled in the Senate. An alternative bill, H. R. 5331, 116th Cong.,1st Sess. (2019), would add similar prohibitions but contains provisions to protect religious liberty.3 This bill remains before a House Subcommittee.
Alito didn't point out this history as an argument that Congress didn't intend to ban discrimination against gay or trans people. He pointed it out as an argument that the phrase "discriminate because of sex" is commonly understood to not cover discriminating because of sexual orientation or gender identity.

Because no such amendment of Title VII has been enacted in accordance with the requirements in the Constitution (passage in both Houses and presentment to the President, Art. I, §7, cl. 2), Title VII’s prohibition of discrimination because of “sex” still means what it has always meant. But the Court is not deterred by these constitutional niceties. Usurping the constitutional authority of the other branches, the Court has essentially taken H. R.5’s provision on employment discrimination and issued it under the guise of statutory interpretation.4 A more brazen abuse of our authority to interpret statutes is hard to recall.
Opponents are rarely the cartoon villains people like to paint them as.
 
Alito just seems to fail at basic logic.
Yes.

If you are discriminating against someone for wearing a dress or identifying as "She" or being In a relationship with a man, on account of their sex, you are discriminating on account of their sex. If people born with vaginas are allowed to do X, so are people born otherwise.

It's not my or anyone else's fault that this is what the law says, not discriminating on account of sex. It is right in there. But this is what it means when you take it to it's fill extent. And it's fill extent is more right.
That was exactly Gorsuch's point. But according to Alito and Kavanaugh, "discriminate because of sex" is an idiomatic expression; they criticize Gorsuch for assuming he can understand what a phrase means by disassembling it into its component words and then putting their meanings together mechanically. In Alito and Kavanaugh's view, that's not how people commonly understand the phrase. As they see it, "discriminate because of sex" doesn't mean "Make a decision one wouldn't have made if the person were the other sex.", the way you and I and Gorsuch would interpret it. Alito and Kavanaugh think the three of us are weirdos and in normal people's minds the phrase means something more like "Make a decision as a result of thinking one sex is better than the other." Consequently, the symmetry of the situation matters to Alito and Kavanaugh -- the circumstance that an employer who fires a man for having sex with a man would also fire a woman for having sex with a woman means he's treating men and women equally rather than treating one sex as better than the other. So the two discriminations cancel out as far as sex is concerned -- doing both proves the discrimination was on some grounds other than sex. Gorsuch in contrast says the second discrimination just adds to the first and the employer would simply be violating Title VII twice.

So, apart from our respective gut feelings and biases in favor of arguments that give us what we prefer, how can we tell who's right? Well, that's actually pretty simple, because America and the SCOTUS have been through all this before. Litigants made the exact same arguments in 1883 in Pace v. Alabama, and the SCOTUS unanimously held that the Alito/Kavanaugh argument was right and the Gorsuch argument was wrong, and they said the 14th Amendment "Equal Protection" clause allowed Alabama to send two people to prison for having inter-racial sex. The court ruled that the fact that a black person was forbidden to do what a white person could do was canceled out by the fact that a white person was forbidden to do what a black person could do, so the law was treating blacks and whites equally. It took 84 years for the U.S. courts to come to their senses and recognize that this argument was hogwash.

Alito recognizes that it's hogwash in the case of race. So how does he try to square that with his opinion that it's valid reasoning in the case of sex? Transparent special pleading. Here's the intellectual core of Alito's dissent:

Alito said:
Recall that Title VII makes it unlawful for an employer
to discriminate against an individual “because of such individual’s race.” 42 U. S. C. §2000e–2(a) (emphasis added).
So if an employer is happy to employ whites and blacks but
will not employ any employee in an interracial relationship,
how can it be said that the employer is discriminating
against either whites or blacks “because of such individual’s
race”? This employer would be applying the same rule to
all its employees regardless of their race.
The answer is that this employer is discriminating on a
ground that history tells us is a core form of race discrimination.18
“It would require absolute blindness to the history of racial discrimination in this country not to understand
what is at stake in such cases . . . . A prohibition on ‘racemixing’ was . . . grounded in bigotry against a particular
race and was an integral part of preserving the rigid hierarchical distinction that denominated members of the black race as inferior to whites.” 883 F. 3d, at 158–159 (Lynch, J., dissenting).
Discrimination because of sexual orientation is different.
It cannot be regarded as a form of sex discrimination on the
ground that applies in race cases since discrimination because of sexual orientation is not historically tied to a project that aims to subjugate either men or women. An employer who discriminates on this ground might be called
“homophobic” or “transphobic,” but not sexist. See Wittmer v. Phillips 66 C
 
If the Conservatives on the court can expand the word human to include corporations and expand the word speech to include money I don’t see why they should be upset by expanding the word sex to include sexual orientation.
But those things never happened. The court hasn't ruled that "human" includes corporations or "speech" includes money. Those are just ideologues' anti-SCOTUS blood libel.
 
The Justices can justify whatever opinion they want to. Honestly, the original term likely meant just women and men... but the intent was a reduction of discrimination based on who a person is born as. So, to me, and a majority of SCOTUS, that is a big enough opening to move on into the 21st Century.
To you, yes. To the SCOTUS, no. If this had been a case of weight-discrimination, and if fat people had gone up the progressive stack as far as gay and trans people, and if it had become fashionable to claim that "sex" includes weight, these circumstances would not have persuaded a majority of the court to rule that weight-discrimination is outlawed by the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

Now, the part that is disingenuous is that Alito for a moment would support that the Constitution specifically protects LGBT from discrimination,
Disingenuous how? Who ever said Alito for a moment would support that the Constitution specifically protects LGBT from discrimination? He thinks it doesn't.
 
I thought sex and gender (and gender expression) were separate concepts, ...

Also, if they are not different, then why have some states passed such anti-discrimination laws specifically prohibititing discrimination based on sexual orientation amd gender identity?
Alito actually made that argument. The answer is, because waiting for the federal government to get its head out of its ass didn't look like a strategy for solving their own state's LGBT people's problems with misgovernment that would work as quickly as passing their own legislation would.
 
Add skin color, place of birth and similar 'outsider' or non-ingroup categories to the list that those like Alito want to see gone.
What's your reasoning for that inference? People who disagree with you about gays are in your outgroup; racists are in your outgroup; therefore people who disagree with you about gays are racists?
 
Completely beside the point.

If you hear that two workers want to suck a dick, and you fire the guy for being a guy that wants dick, but you don't fire the woman for being a woman wanting dick, you have discriminated based on what is in their underwear.

Dude, if you are going to cite Ginsburg’s opinion, you should use quotes.
Why, she didn't. She just added her own name to Gorsuch's opinion.
 
The man-boy love (sex) lobby would also be celebrating this trail blazing victory on the Supreme Court.
Very probably -- since they probably haven't read the decision. They've probably decided what it means using the same procedure -- consultation of their own prejudices -- that several posters here used. But this decision is a precedent that will be yet another obstacle to their cause. Their best hope for legalization is some possible future trip up the progressive stack that makes it fashionable to classify them as just another gender. This SCOTUS decision explicitly rejected the concept of expanding the meaning of "sex" to include people's self-identified gender. Celebrate they may, the fools, but Bostock was a loss for the man-boy sex lobby.
 
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