Shooting reported at Paris magazine Charlie Hebdo

[Warpoet]

So you're saying that Mohammad was not a pedophile and did not engage in violent conflict?

No, I'm saying, and have explained, repeatedly, that it's irrelevant to the case Sphincter and others are trying to make about how all Muslims, everywhere, think. Just like the Bible's commands to kill gays, unbelievers, et cetera, don't give us a basis for broad brush generalizations about the world's Jews and Christians.

It's been explained countless times, as I'm sure you are aware.

 

[none]

oh yeah, a fundamental Muslim belief that a violent pedophile barbarian is worthy of respect and whose conduct is the ideal for which humanity should emulate is irrelevant to a Muslim's conduct. After all, it is only what they base their conduct on.
"TOTALLY IRRELEVANT!" shouts the Muslim apologists.
what a crock, maybe this denial works on Muslims generally speaking, is that why you promote it here, on this forum?

 

[none]

Tell me, us, and everybody reading, did you get together with your Muslim buddies and agree that a Muslims conduct isn't based on their belief that a violent pedophile barbarian is worthy of respect and is the ideal to emulate and decide to peddle that idea around the web?
Speak up, what is the source of the rumor you are spreading?

 

[Trausti]

So you're saying that Mohammad was not a pedophile and did not engage in violent conflict?

No, I'm saying, and have explained, repeatedly, that it's irrelevant to the case Sphincter and others are trying to make about how all Muslims, everywhere, think. Just like the Bible's commands to kill gays, unbelievers, et cetera, don't give us a basis for broad brush generalizations about the world's Jews and Christians.

It's been explained countless times, as I'm sure you are aware.

Heh. Religion is just a set of beliefs; the other side of the coin is politics. It is not a race or ethnicity. In many past societies, and some current ones, religion and politics were one and the same. Inseparable. While I see your point that one shouldn't make broad brush generalizations - with a Waldo like concentration you'll eventually spot a liberal Muslim - in the world today gays and unbelievers can live peacefully and unmolested in Christian and Jewish societies. Predominately Christian and Jewish societies recognize a distinction between the religious and the secular. That is not true for Muslim societies. To ignore this is to be unforgivably stupid or connivingly duplicitous. Worse still is to make knee-jerk apologies and false equivalences which merely aid and abet the continued misery of non-Muslims in predominately Muslim societies. I'm an atheist. To be so in a predominately Muslim society, today, would be a risk to my life. We need not try to imagine how all Muslims, everywhere, think. We need only observe what they do. And the rabid intolerance towards non-Islamic religion, irreligion, and sexual orientation in predominately Muslims societies is a clear indication that the worse parts of the Koran and Hadiths are still adhered to.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Hmmm:

Outside France, Muslim leaders condemned the weekly’s decision to put a cartoon of the prophet back on the cover. It shows a weeping prophet holding up a sign saying “Je suis Charlie” (“I am Charlie”), the slogan of global solidarity with the magazine’s journalists who were killed in their offices last Wednesday. The headline reads “All is forgiven”.

A Turkish state-run news agency said a court ordered the telecommunications authority to ban access to websites showing the cover. Anadolu Agency said the ban was ordered by a court in the south-eastern city of Diyarbakir. A lawyer in Diyarbakir filed a petition saying the websites were a danger to “public order”.

There is nothing insulting to Muslims themselves on the cover (it doesn't disparage them as individuals in any way).

And this country actually wanted to join the EU at one point? What a joke.

Good for them! Brave! And the choice of cover is perfect. This isn't depicting Mohammed with a bomb for a turban. This is depicting him standing alongside the rest of us who condemn violence in his name, and in the name of Islam.

Do they sell this overseas? I would like a copy of this edition for my collection of doodads and thingamajigs.

 

[Warpoet]

oh yeah, a fundamental Muslim belief that a violent pedophile barbarian is worthy of respect and whose conduct is the ideal for which humanity should emulate is irrelevant to a Muslim's conduct. After all, it is only what they base their conduct on.

Except that most Muslims are not pedophiles and murderers, and hence, they obviously pick and choose what elements of the Qur'an and Sunnah, etc to adopt into their own personal lives. Which is what Jews and Christians do, when it comes to the commands for violence within their holy books.

Thus, the argument does not stack up, and you getting all pissed off and acting like a child doesn't change this.

 

[Warpoet]

Tell me, us, and everybody reading, did you get together with your Muslim buddies and agree that a Muslims conduct isn't based on their belief that a violent pedophile barbarian is worth of respect and is the ideal to emulate and decide to peddle that idea around the web?
Speak up, what is the source of the rumor you are spreading?

I sure as fuck don't owe you any explanations about really anything -- but suffice to say, I don't speak for any "Muslim buddies." Just as a reasonably intelligent person who values reason over broadbrush, prejudiced labeling of others.

And if that's a problem for you, then that's tough shit. I'm not going anywhere; and let's face it, you haven't made a dent intellectually in anything I've said.

 

[Warpoet]

Heh. Religion is just a set of beliefs; the other side of the coin is politics. It is not a race or ethnicity. In many past societies, and some current ones, religion and politics were one and the same. Inseparable. While I see your point that one shouldn't make broad brush generalizations - with a Waldo like concentration you'll eventually spot a liberal Muslim - in the world today gays and unbelievers can live peacefully and unmolested in Christian and Jewish societies. Predominately Christian and Jewish societies recognize a distinction between the religious and the secular.

The only "Jewish society" I'm aware of is Israel, and they are not a beacon of respect for human rights.

As far as there being generally more freedom in the Christian West than in most Muslim countries, that's

A) Something that has occurred only very recently in history
B) Something that has occurred despite, not because of, Christianity
C) Something plenty of Christians are actively trying to undo.

It is not evidence that Christians are less crazy than Muslims, and certainly not evidence to support Sphincter's idiotic idea that there are no Muslim moderates.

Honestly, I don't know what's worse: that shit like that is posted, or that you don't see anything wrong it.

 

[none]

oh yeah, a fundamental Muslim belief that a violent pedophile barbarian is worthy of respect and whose conduct is the ideal for which humanity should emulate is irrelevant to a Muslim's conduct. After all, it is only what they base their conduct on.

Except that most Muslims are not pedophiles and murderers, and hence, they obviously pick and choose what elements of the Qur'an and Sunnah, etc to adopt into their own personal lives. Which is what Jews and Christians do, when it comes to the commands for violence within their holy books.

Thus, the argument does not stack up, and you getting all pissed off and acting like a child doesn't change this.

You don't seem to understand that Muslims believe that a violent pedophile barbarian named Muhammad is worthy of respect and is, in their opinion, the ideal for humanity.
A Muslims behavior doesn't change their belief that a violent pedophile barbarian named Muhammed is worthy of respect and the ideal for humanity.
I don't care if there are pacifist Muslims they believe the same garbage and they spread the decree any chance they get.
what don't you understand?

 

[Trausti]

Heh. Religion is just a set of beliefs; the other side of the coin is politics. It is not a race or ethnicity. In many past societies, and some current ones, religion and politics were one and the same. Inseparable. While I see your point that one shouldn't make broad brush generalizations - with a Waldo like concentration you'll eventually spot a liberal Muslim - in the world today gays and unbelievers can live peacefully and unmolested in Christian and Jewish societies. Predominately Christian and Jewish societies recognize a distinction between the religious and the secular.

The only "Jewish society" I'm aware of is Israel, and they are not a beacon of respect for human rights.

As far as there being generally more freedom in the Christian West than in most Muslim countries, that's

A) Something that has occurred only very recently in history
B) Something that has occurred despite, not because of, Christianity
C) Something plenty of Christians are actively trying to undo.

It is not evidence that Christians are less crazy than Muslims, and certainly not evidence to support Sphincter's idiotic idea that there are no Muslim moderates.

Honestly, I don't know what's worse: that shit like that is posted, or that you don't see anything wrong it.

So are you posting from a time machine? Or do you live in 2015?

 

[none]

Tell me, us, and everybody reading, did you get together with your Muslim buddies and agree that a Muslims conduct isn't based on their belief that a violent pedophile barbarian is worth of respect and is the ideal to emulate and decide to peddle that idea around the web?
Speak up, what is the source of the rumor you are spreading?

I sure as fuck don't owe you any explanations about really anything -- but suffice to say, I don't speak for any "Muslim buddies." Just as a reasonably intelligent person who values reason over broadbrush, prejudiced labeling of others.

And if that's a problem for you, then that's tough shit. I'm not going anywhere; and let's face it, you haven't made a dent intellectually in anything I've said.

I know, I know, you know all therefore you can continue to post idiotic rants, it is your prerogative.
By the way, when are you going to criticize Muhammad, the one whom you think is the ideal for humanity?

 

[Warpoet]

what don't you understand?

Why you continue repeating yourself like a broken record, when your point has been addressed at least a dozen times, as if it will accomplish anything <snip>.

- - - Updated - - -

So are you posting from a time machine? Or do you live in 2015?

Yeah, feel free to point out what I said that was actually incorrect, instead of being a smartass.

 

[none]

Why you continue you repeating yourself like a broken record, when your point has been addressed at least a dozen times, as if it will accomplish anything <snip>.

Here: Muslims believe that a violent pedophile barbarian named Muhammad is worthy of respect and is the ideal for humanity, I don't care if they are pacifists they still believe it.
duh, maybe if you were wearing a burka it would make sense to you, but you are probably <snip>.
just maybe you would understand if you tried not to spread rumors and actually READ, of allah forbid that you READ>.,.
<snip>

 

[Warpoet]

Here: Muslims believe that a violent pedophile barbarian named Muhammad is worthy of respect and is the ideal for humanity, I don't care if they are pacifists they still believe it.

That's nice. It's just too bad this has nothing to do with the discussion the grown-ups are trying to have, which you keep shitting up with incomprehensible gibberish.

duh, maybe if you were wearing a burka it would make sense to you, but you are probably <snip>.
just maybe you would understand if you tried not to spread rumors and actually READ, of allah forbid that you READ>.,.
<snip>

Man, I can hear your blood pressure skyrocketing as you type. Why don't you wipe the spittle off your screen and calm the fuck down? And what's a <snip>? If you're going to attempt to insult people, at least try to make some kind of sense.

 

[none]

That's nice. It's just too bad this has nothing to do with the discussion the grown-ups are trying to have, which you keep shitting up with incomprehensible gibberish.

maybe I misunderstood you.

duh, maybe if you were wearing a burka it would make sense to you, but you are probably <snip>.
just maybe you would understand if you tried not to spread rumors and actually READ, of allah forbid that you READ>.,.
<snip>

Man, I can hear your blood pressure skyrocketing as you type. Why don't you wipe the spittle off your screen and calm the fuck down? And what's a <snip>? If you're going to attempt to insult people, at least try to make some kind of sense.

you are no qualified medical professional, just another Muslim apologist.
get on with your discussion, if I was a little tangential oops don't let it get your dick hard.

 

[Warpoet]

you are no qualified medical professional, just another Muslim apologist.

Half true.

get on with your discussion, if I was a little tangential oops don't let it get your dick hard.

Man. I've pissed off a lot of people on here but I don't think any have raged as hard as you are right now. Seriously though, what's a <snip>?

 

[none]

Half true.

get on with your discussion, if I was a little tangential oops don't let it get your dick hard.

Man. I've pissed off a lot of people on here but I don't think any have raged as hard as you are right now. Seriously though, what's a <snip>?

hahaha
I'm over it, now what rumor were you trying to spread?

 

[bilby]

Muslims believe that a violent pedophile barbarian named Muhammad is worthy of respect and is the ideal for humanity, I don't care if they are pacifists they still believe it.

Well it is a shame that you don't care whether or not you are right; because you are wrong.

Muslims believe that their religion was founded by a prophet called Mohammed. Most of them believe that Mohammed is worthy of respect. This is a belief; it is not, therefore based on facts.

Most Muslims do NOT believe that their prophet Mohammed was a paedophile. History suggests that he was; but the facts are not important to belief.

Most Muslims believe that their prophet Mohammed was in communication with their God, Allah. The reality is that no such God exists; but the facts are not important to belief.

Most Muslims believe that whatever violence Mohammed engaged in was justified; but that they themselves are not justified in using violence to spread their religion, either by way of emulating the prophet, or by way of obeying what is written in the Quran. Again, as this is a belief, there is no need for it to be related in any way to reality.

Some Muslims disagree with this interpretation of the Quran, or with the moderate Muslims' conclusions on which aspects of Mohammed's life to emulate, and believe that violence against non-Muslims is OK; Some even believe that violence against other Muslims is OK. Once again, as these are beliefs, there is no need for them to be related in any way to reality.

The vast majority of Muslims believe that theirs is a religion of peace. As this is a belief, it has no coupling to reality - You cannot reason it away, and no other interpretation than that of the believer is valid.

If you were to claim that Christians believe that homosexuals should be put to death, you would be wrong. The majority of Christians do NOT believe that. Appealing to the text of the Bible makes no difference to this; the belief is not in any way required to have a basis in fact - If a person says "I believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God" then he has given up any pretence of rationality, and as such it is not possible to show that he also MUST believe what it says in the Bible - indeed it is quite possible for a Christian to make such a statement without ever having read the Bible, because belief is unrelated to facts.

You cannot prove a statement of the form "X believes Y" by reference to reality, history, factuality or reason; Muslims, like all theists, believe a lot of contradictory nonsense, and it is a gross error to try to extrapolate from a stated belief to another inferred belief using logic; logic does not apply to irrationality.

Muslims believe that Mohammed is worthy of respect.
Mohammed was a violent paedophile barbarian.
But from these two facts we CANNOT conclude that Muslims believe that a violent pedophile barbarian named Muhammad is worthy of respect; because to do so requires the assumption that religious beliefs must be rational and internally consistent - and we know that this assumption is false.

 

[none]

ahh there are good Muslims and bad Muslims, why should belief interfere with the facts?
the good Muslims believe that Muhammad was a violent pedophile barbarian worthy of respect and is the ideal for humanity, the bad Muslims... not so much. the bad Muslims might not be privy to the facts that the good Muslims are using.
but either way Muhammad was a violent pedophile barbarian and they respect him and think he is the ideal for humanity, whether or not the know the facts about him doesn't change their respect and reverence.

 

[bilby]

ahh there are good Muslims and bad Muslims, why should belief interfere with the facts?

Belief takes no notice of facts, and has no impact upon them

the good Muslims believe that Muhammad was a violent pedophile barbarian worthy of respect and is the ideal for humanity, the bad Muslims... not so much. the bad Muslims might not be privy to the facts that the good Muslims are using.

This is errant nonsense. You should try reading my post above. Facts have nothing to do with it; If you are basing your assumptions about the beliefs of others on facts, reason or logic, then you are making a gross error. The only way to find out what someone believes is to see what he does, and to a lesser extent, what he says. Most Muslims do not engage in or even call for violence or paedophilia, so your conclusion is not just unsupportable; it is also demonstrably wrong.

but either way Muhammad was a violent pedophile barbarian and they respect him and think he is the ideal for humanity, whether or not the know the facts about him doesn't change their respect and reverence.

No, but it does change the essence of what they respect and revere. And as that is all that matters in terms of influencing their actions, your implication that Muslims are or should be paedophiles or barbarians is baseless.