Shooting reported at Paris magazine Charlie Hebdo

[Cycad]

Cabu was even more iconic here, it's going to take time to imagine political cartooning without him.

Maybe but my heart is with Wolinski. I am F Dard fan and love Wolinski.
Grew up with hara kiri prof choron anarchism hippies freedom and believe in humanity

Google Wolinski il faudrait nationaliser le bonheur
In a few lines, harmony, simplicity, happiness

 

[Cycad]

Utter rubbish.

Really?

Apologies Davka, I have been way too blunt and should thank you for defending freedom of speech.
But I was, and still am, in shock after the carnage.

When I said RUBBISH I didnt speak after a quick google search.
I used to read hara kiri (predecessor of Charlie) and have been following both charlie and the work of wolinski for more than 3 decades.

And from this perspective : Charlie was not a rag. Anarchist : yes. Attacking establishment : yes. Attacking every religion : yes.
But homophobic ? Sexist ? Anti Islam and virulent racist brand of french xenophobia ?
Give me a break !

quoting charb in le monde (not a rag)

« Charlie Hebdo est fils de Mai-68, de la liberté, de l'insolence, et de personnalités aussi clairement situées que Cavanna, Cabu, Wolinski, Reiser, Gébé, Delfeil de Ton […]. Il aura aidé à former l'esprit critique d'une génération. En se moquant certes des pouvoirs et des puissants. En riant, et parfois à gorge déployée, des malheurs du monde, mais toujours, toujours, toujours en défendant la personne humaine et les valeurs universelles qui lui sont associées.

and

je préfère mourir debout que vivre à genoux

 

[untermensche]

What Fox Won't Show You: Muslim Leaders Are Condemning The Paris Terror Attack

http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/01/07/what-fox-wont-show-you-muslim-leaders-are-conde/202049

In the US we won't hear much about the Muslims all over the world condemning this crime.

That isn't a story that sells.

 

[dismal]

What Fox Won't Show You: Muslim Leaders Are Condemning The Paris Terror Attack

http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/01/07/what-fox-wont-show-you-muslim-leaders-are-conde/202049

In the US we won't hear much about the Muslims all over the world condemning this crime.

That isn't a story that sells.

Because its dog bites man.

How could anyone be surprised that anyone would condemn the execution of a bunch of cartoonists over cartoons?

The fact that you consider it some sort of major development worthy of great fanfare speaks volumes.

 

[Jokodo]

http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/01/07/what-fox-wont-show-you-muslim-leaders-are-conde/202049

In the US we won't hear much about the Muslims all over the world condemning this crime.

That isn't a story that sells.

Because its dog bites man.

How could anyone be surprised that anyone would condemn the execution of a bunch of cartoonists over cartoons?

The fact that you consider it some sort of major development worthy of great fanfare speaks volumes.

It shouldn't be relevant, but when there's tons of commentaries whining how the "so-called moderate" or mainstream Muslims allegedly always fail to condemn the acts of the extremists thus demonstrating that they really are nothing but another bunch of extremists only that they're to cowardly to put their own lives on the line, it suddenly is.

 

[untermensche]

http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/01/07/what-fox-wont-show-you-muslim-leaders-are-conde/202049

In the US we won't hear much about the Muslims all over the world condemning this crime.

That isn't a story that sells.

Because its dog bites man.

How could anyone be surprised that anyone would condemn the execution of a bunch of cartoonists over cartoons?

The fact that you consider it some sort of major development worthy of great fanfare speaks volumes.

It's part of the overall story.

Leaving out the Muslim voices who condemn things like this is only reporting part of the story.

And all it does is justify further US violence in the name of fighting "terrorism".

Terrorism as the cure for terrorism.

 

[Bomb#20]

In the US we won't hear much about the Muslims all over the world condemning this crime.

I'm in the US and I've already heard a lot about that.

 

[dismal]

I will look forward to seeing editorials like this not appearing in the Wall Street Journal:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/muslim-...n-anti-islamic-sentiment-in-europe-1420654885

 

[untermensche]

I will look forward to seeing editorials like this not appearing in the Wall Street Journal:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/muslim-...n-anti-islamic-sentiment-in-europe-1420654885

Well there you go.

This is not something inherent to Islam.

It is something Muslims condemn.

 

[dismal]

I will look forward to seeing editorials like this not appearing in the Wall Street Journal:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/muslim-...n-anti-islamic-sentiment-in-europe-1420654885

Well there you go.

This is not something inherent to Islam.

It is something Muslims condemn.

I don't think it is necessary to demonstrate it is "inherent to Islam" or that all Muslims share the killer's beliefs for it to have been done because of religious beliefs.

But at least now that you have slain that fearsome strawman your argument will be well rehearsed if someone does come along and argue this is something inherent to Islam.

 

[untermensche]

Well there you go.

This is not something inherent to Islam.

It is something Muslims condemn.

I don't think it is necessary to demonstrate it is "inherent to Islam" or that all Muslims share the killer's beliefs for it to have been done because of religious beliefs.

But at least now that you have slain that fearsome strawman your argument will be well rehearsed if someone does come along and argue this is something inherent to Islam.

Those people are all over this tiny forum.

And I guess your argument is that if any nut does anything in the name of some religion that is a religious belief.

It is a religious belief of some Christians to shoot abortion doctors.

 

[Warpoet]

In the absence of events like this, I would discourage people from mocking and insulting Islam and Muslims the way this paper appears to do. But given events like this, I find it imperative that such mocking and insulting of Islam happens. When thugs try to stop you from doing X, the response should be to be defiant, and doing X becomes important. It shows that thuggery won't be effective.

So if a newspaper starts running op-eds calling colored folk spics and niggers, and one of them shoots the place up, we should all start calling them spics and niggers as an act of defiance?

 

[Warpoet]

Because its dog bites man.

How could anyone be surprised that anyone would condemn the execution of a bunch of cartoonists over cartoons?

The fact that you consider it some sort of major development worthy of great fanfare speaks volumes.

Yeah, maybe you should try talking to the people on this very forum who think that actions like this are representative of what ordinary Muslims believe and that violating their civil rights en masse is justified because of it.

 

[dismal]

I don't think it is necessary to demonstrate it is "inherent to Islam" or that all Muslims share the killer's beliefs for it to have been done because of religious beliefs.

But at least now that you have slain that fearsome strawman your argument will be well rehearsed if someone does come along and argue this is something inherent to Islam.

Those people are all over this tiny forum.

Cite?

And I guess your argument is that if any nut does anything in the name of some religion that is a religious belief.

Well, so far my argument is that the particular killers in this case a) were not nuts and b) were motivated by religious beliefs.

- - - Updated - - -

Because its dog bites man.

How could anyone be surprised that anyone would condemn the execution of a bunch of cartoonists over cartoons?

The fact that you consider it some sort of major development worthy of great fanfare speaks volumes.

Yeah, maybe you should try talking to the people on this very forum who think that actions like this are representative of what ordinary Muslims believe and that violating their civil rights en masse is justified because of it.

OK, point me to one.

 

[untermensche]

Well, so far my argument is that the particular killers in this case a) were not nuts and b) were motivated by religious beliefs.

Killing people because you are acting as an agent for some god is not sane.

It is about as deluded as one can get.

And how do we say this is motivated by a religious belief when the people of the religion condemn it and say it is not?

 

[Warpoet]

OK, point me to one.

Someone already suggested it on the second page of this thread.

http://talkfreethought.org/member.php?314-metacristi -- If you have a lot of free time to waste you can read through his posts and get an idea of what he's about. He thinks that Ayaan Hirsi Ali's call to strip Muslims of their right to free speech and close down Muslim schools is too soft. Any time AHA comes up there are also plenty of others ready to fall on the sword for her.

Decypher hasn't put his head above water here in some time, but he's stated that he doesn't view 3rd or 4th generation Muslims as actual British citizens and essentially thinks they ought to be deported.

And that's just off the top of my head, and fulfilling both criteria. Not many people have the balls to come here and call for taking away Muslims' civil rights, but there are tons who have tried to blame Muslims writ large for this kind of behavior, which is what untermensche was talking about.

 

[jab]

Yes, alah-akbar people.
12 people are dead.

Karen Armstrong, dearie, this one's for you. . .

 

[untermensche]

....which is what untermensche was talking about.

Also that this is just here in this small highly regulated forum.

If one opens their eyes and looks at the real world there are people all over the place, and with a voice in the mainstream media, that represent isolated crimes like this as reflecting some general truth about Islam.

And use their general condemnation to justify massive violence carried out against Muslims.

 

[arkirk]

In the absence of events like this, I would discourage people from mocking and insulting Islam and Muslims the way this paper appears to do. But given events like this, I find it imperative that such mocking and insulting of Islam happens. When thugs try to stop you from doing X, the response should be to be defiant, and doing X becomes important. It shows that thuggery won't be effective.

So if a newspaper starts running op-eds calling colored folk spics and niggers, and one of them shoots the place up, we should all start calling them spics and niggers as an act of defiance?

I frankly regard the religion of Islam a pile of hot crap that keeps its adherents enslaved to ideas that in today's world lead to violent conflict. I personally feel the comic aspects of religion in general should be vulnerable to the criticism of atheists. These are not the first political cartoonists to be assassinated by Islamic maniacs. What appears to keep this kind of thing happening is the fact that we all are related to people of this or that religion or race who passionately react to criticism. Intelligent people are not fundamentalists and do not take any of this religion stuff as a license to murder our fellow men...even if they jeer at us.

I feel the killers here attacked the least of their problems given the Christian law makers who outlaw things that are Muslim...like headscarves. While I find the great mass of Islamic lore and dress ridiculous, I feel these people only attacked the enemies of their Religion and not people who truly were their enemies. In the end however, all aggression is misplaced aggression. Those who attacked this magazine are the greatest enemies of their own people, creating ever rising prejudice and fear.

 

[PyramidHead]

In the absence of events like this, I would discourage people from mocking and insulting Islam and Muslims the way this paper appears to do. But given events like this, I find it imperative that such mocking and insulting of Islam happens. When thugs try to stop you from doing X, the response should be to be defiant, and doing X becomes important. It shows that thuggery won't be effective.

So if a newspaper starts running op-eds calling colored folk spics and niggers, and one of them shoots the place up, we should all start calling them spics and niggers as an act of defiance?

'Colored folk' are not responsible for the color of their skin. Muslims are responsible for the content of their character. Most people are uncomfortable with mocking something about others that they have no control over; this is why it's usually considered rude to make fun of mentally disabled people. I don't buy that defense for religion. At the end of the day, if you continue to follow a system of beliefs, whatever it may be, you open yourself up to criticism of those beliefs (and the people who hold them).