Should bakers be forced to make gender transition celebration cakes?

[ZiprHead]

Yes: because he thinks God made people male and female and gender transition is nothing to celebrate.

What did Jesus say about trans people?

Nothing, because Jesus didn't exist.

Yet you defend the guy that uses the book to tell of Jesus life as his guidebook.

 

[ZiprHead]

Here Metaphor I'll help you out since you don't seem to be taking my hints.

https://ccrd.colorado.gov/discrimination

Snip: It would be a discriminatory action for a place of public accommodation, directly or indirectly, to refuse, withhold from, or deny to an individual or a group the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, of the public accommodation based on that person or groups' protected class.

Do I actually need to grab the statute for you?

The refusal was not on account of Scardina's being trans, but rather, on account of the cake being for celebrating a transition.

So the trans person is celebrating the transition but the baker is not discriminating against that person for doing the transition celebration.

I wonder if the baker was told to say he's just objecting to the cake by his lawyer.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Here Metaphor I'll help you out since you don't seem to be taking my hints.

https://ccrd.colorado.gov/discrimination

Snip: It would be a discriminatory action for a place of public accommodation, directly or indirectly, to refuse, withhold from, or deny to an individual or a group the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, of the public accommodation based on that person or groups' protected class.

Do I actually need to grab the statute for you?

The refusal was not on account of Scardina's being trans, but rather, on account of the cake being for celebrating a transition.

So the trans person is celebrating the transition but the baker is not discriminating against that person for doing the transition celebration.

I wonder if the baker was told to say he's just objecting to the cake by his lawyer.

No, he is not discriminating against the trans person on account of the their being a trans person. Rather, he is refusing to make a gender transition cake. If the gender transition cake had not been ordered by Scardina but by one of Scardina's friends, the baker would have refused just as much. And if a Woke non-trans person had requested a 'trans celebration cake' to use, say, in a demonstration in support of trans claims, the baker would have refused as well.

 

[Metaphor]

Here Metaphor I'll help you out since you don't seem to be taking my hints.

https://ccrd.colorado.gov/discrimination

Snip: It would be a discriminatory action for a place of public accommodation, directly or indirectly, to refuse, withhold from, or deny to an individual or a group the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, of the public accommodation based on that person or groups' protected class.

Do I actually need to grab the statute for you?

No. I did not suggest Phillips had the legal right to refuse to serve Scardina on account of her trans status.

 

[ZiprHead]

So the trans person is celebrating the transition but the baker is not discriminating against that person for doing the transition celebration.

I wonder if the baker was told to say he's just objecting to the cake by his lawyer.

No, he is not discriminating against the trans person on account of the their being a trans person. Rather, he is refusing to make a gender transition cake. If the gender transition cake had not been ordered by Scardina but by one of Scardina's friends, the baker would have refused just as much. And if a Woke non-trans person had requested a 'trans celebration cake' to use, say, in a demonstration in support of trans claims, the baker would have refused as well.

Interesting. How do you know this?

 

[Angra Mainyu]

So the trans person is celebrating the transition but the baker is not discriminating against that person for doing the transition celebration.

I wonder if the baker was told to say he's just objecting to the cake by his lawyer.

No, he is not discriminating against the trans person on account of the their being a trans person. Rather, he is refusing to make a gender transition cake. If the gender transition cake had not been ordered by Scardina but by one of Scardina's friends, the baker would have refused just as much. And if a Woke non-trans person had requested a 'trans celebration cake' to use, say, in a demonstration in support of trans claims, the baker would have refused as well.

Interesting. How do you know this?

It's a straightforward assessment based on the available information. Do you think there is a significant chance of that being false? Do you think there is a significant chance that the baker would have baked the cake in the cases above?

On the other hand, there is no good reason to think that the baker would have refused to, say, bake a birthday cake that a trans person wants to buy for, say, his daughter's birthday, even if the baker is well aware that the customer is a trans person (in fact, if the baker refused to do that, Scardina and allies would have a very easy way of bringing down the baker).

 

[KeepTalking]

Interesting. How do you know this?

It's a straightforward assessment based on the available information. Do you think there is a significant chance of that being false? Do you think there is a significant chance that the baker would have baked the cake in the cases above?

On the other hand, there is no good reason to think that the baker would have refused to, say, bake a birthday cake that a trans person wants to buy for, say, his daughter's birthday, even if the baker is well aware that the customer is a trans person (in fact, if the baker refused to do that, Scardina and allies would have a very easy way of bringing down the baker).

Just so you are aware, a gender transition celebration is exactly the same as a birthday to a transgender.

 

[TomC]

Interesting. How do you know this?

It's a straightforward assessment based on the available information. Do you think there is a significant chance of that being false? Do you think there is a significant chance that the baker would have baked the cake in the cases above?

On the other hand, there is no good reason to think that the baker would have refused to, say, bake a birthday cake that a trans person wants to buy for, say, his daughter's birthday, even if the baker is well aware that the customer is a trans person (in fact, if the baker refused to do that, Scardina and allies would have a very easy way of bringing down the baker).

Just so you are aware, a gender transition celebration is exactly the same as a birthday to a transgender.

That's a remarkably sweeping statement to make. Got a citation?
Tom

 

[KeepTalking]

Just so you are aware, a gender transition celebration is exactly the same as a birthday to a transgender.

That's a remarkably sweeping statement to make. Got a citation?
Tom

Only anecdotally, having attended a gender transition party where my friend expressed exactly that sentiment.

ETA: that apparently was not an isolated sentiment:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/happy-transgender-birthda_b_9028696

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Interesting. How do you know this?

It's a straightforward assessment based on the available information. Do you think there is a significant chance of that being false? Do you think there is a significant chance that the baker would have baked the cake in the cases above?

On the other hand, there is no good reason to think that the baker would have refused to, say, bake a birthday cake that a trans person wants to buy for, say, his daughter's birthday, even if the baker is well aware that the customer is a trans person (in fact, if the baker refused to do that, Scardina and allies would have a very easy way of bringing down the baker).

Just so you are aware, a gender transition celebration is exactly the same as a birthday to a transgender.

That is not at all the point. It clearly is not at all the same to the baker, and I am assessing how the baker behaves, not how transgender people behave.

 

[laughing dog]

Just so you are aware, a gender transition celebration is exactly the same as a birthday to a transgender.

That is not at all the point. It clearly is not at all the same to the baker, and I am assessing how the baker behaves, not how transgender people behave.

You have no evidence to support your conjecture how whether it is all the same to that baker or not.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Just so you are aware, a gender transition celebration is exactly the same as a birthday to a transgender.

That is not at all the point. It clearly is not at all the same to the baker, and I am assessing how the baker behaves, not how transgender people behave.

You have no evidence to support your conjecture how whether it is all the same to that baker or not.

I - and you - have conclusive evidence that birthday celebrations and gender transition celebrations are not the same to the baker. It is pretty obvious (to a human who is being rational about it, at least).

 

[KeepTalking]

Just so you are aware, a gender transition celebration is exactly the same as a birthday to a transgender.

That is not at all the point. It clearly is not at all the same to the baker, and I am assessing how the baker behaves, not how transgender people behave.

You did seem to be of a mind that if he refused to bake a birthday cake for a transgender then that would be a problem, so I thought you should be aware that to the transgender that is exactly what he did. I may have hoped that there was an outside chance that would get you to change your perspective slightly, but I certainly did not expect that to happen.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Just so you are aware, a gender transition celebration is exactly the same as a birthday to a transgender.

That is not at all the point. It clearly is not at all the same to the baker, and I am assessing how the baker behaves, not how transgender people behave.

You did seem to be of a mind that if he refused to bake a birthday cake for a transgender then that would be a problem, so I thought you should be aware that to the transgender that is exactly what he did. I may have hoped that there was an outside chance that would get you to change your perspective slightly, but I certainly did not expect that to happen.

If he refused to bake a birthday cake for a transgender person because they are transgender, the baker would have engaged in discrimination on the basis of the characteristics of a person, rather than viewpoint. It is not the same to force the baker to serve the person he dislikes and to express the opinion he disagrees with.

But that aside, why would your point change my view? Is there anything I said that is somehow refuted by that, granting for the sake of the argument that your claim about transgender people is correct?

My point is that to change my perspective even slightly on the basis of your point would have been irrational, as my perspective has nothing to do with it.

 

[laughing dog]

You have no evidence to support your conjecture how whether it is all the same to that baker or not.

I - and you - have conclusive evidence that birthday celebrations and gender transition celebrations are not the same to the baker.

NO, we do not have any evidence that a transgender celebration cake is the same as a birthday cake for a transgender person in the eyes of the baker. None - as any rational person can see.

Your conjecture may be right. Then again, it might not.

.

 

[KeepTalking]

You did seem to be of a mind that if he refused to bake a birthday cake for a transgender then that would be a problem, so I thought you should be aware that to the transgender that is exactly what he did. I may have hoped that there was an outside chance that would get you to change your perspective slightly, but I certainly did not expect that to happen.

If he refused to bake a birthday cake for a transgender person because they are transgender, the baker would have engaged in discrimination on the basis of the characteristics of a person, rather than viewpoint. It is not the same to force the baker to serve the person he dislikes and to express the opinion he disagrees with.

It is my contention that neither a birthday cake nor a transgender celebration cake, provided they are undecorated, conveys a message. I am not sure that he would bake a birthday cake for a transgender if he knew that it was for a transgender, after all in his mind that would be sending a message to the transgender that they should enjoy their day, and that's not the kind of message his puny god would approve of.

But that aside, why would your point change my view? Is there anything I said that is somehow refuted by that, granting for the sake of the argument that your claim about transgender people is correct?

Because it may have provided information and context that you did not have before. Were you aware that to a transgender this celebration is exactly the same as a birthday celebration to a cisgender?

My point is that to change my perspective even slightly on the basis of your point would have been irrational, as my perspective has nothing to do with it.

I don't think it is irrational to consider that new information might change a person's perspective. After all, I do not, and could not possibly, have a perfect understanding of your perspective and all of the information that you evaluated when forming it.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

You have no evidence to support your conjecture how whether it is all the same to that baker or not.

I - and you - have conclusive evidence that birthday celebrations and gender transition celebrations are not the same to the baker.

NO, we do not have any evidence that a transgender celebration cake is the same as a birthday cake for a transgender person in the eyes of the baker. None - as any rational person can see.

Your conjecture may be right. Then again, it might not.

.

But that has nothing to do with what I said. It is not my "conjecture".

 

[Angra Mainyu]

It is my contention that neither a birthday cake nor a transgender celebration cake, provided they are undecorated, conveys a message. I am not sure that he would bake a birthday cake for a transgender if he knew that it was for a transgender, after all in his mind that would be sending a message to the transgender that they should enjoy their day, and that's not the kind of message his puny god would approve of.

If he didn't bake that kind of cake, they could easily get him on this. And it's pretty clear that he knows it, given the previous court case.

Because it may have provided information and context that you did not have before. Were you aware that to a transgender this celebration is exactly the same as a birthday celebration to a cisgender?

I was not (I am not; I'm assuming you're right for the sake of the argument), but that is information not relevant to my points.

I don't think it is irrational to consider that new information might change a person's perspective.

My point is that it would be irrational on my part to change my perspective based on info not relevant to it (aside, you also didn't have any good reason to suspect that my perspective was related to how the trans person would feel, since I was talking about the mind of the baker, not of trans people, but that is another matter).

 

[KeepTalking]

If he didn't bake that kind of cake, they could easily get him on this. And it's pretty clear that he knows it, given the previous court case.

Agreed on both accounts, but I don't think he cares. He and his fellow religionists have likely convinced themselves that they are fighting the good fight, laws be damned.

I was not (I am not; I'm assuming you're right for the sake of the argument), but that is information not relevant to my points.

As noted, it was initially anecdotal, but I edited my previous response to add a link that shows that my experience was not unique. I had no way of knowing what information was relevant to you, I provided information that I surmised (correctly) that you did not have. I won't apologize for it.

I don't think it is irrational to consider that new information might change a person's perspective.

My point is that it would be irrational on my part to change my perspective based on info not relevant to it (aside, you also didn't have any good reason to suspect that my perspective was related to how the trans person would feel, since I was talking about the mind of the baker, not of trans people, but that is another matter).

Please forgive my imperfect comprehension of your perspective. Non-omniscience is one of my failings, I'm afraid.

 

[ZiprHead]

I frankly don't see the difference between refusing to create a trans celebration cake and discrimination of trans people.