• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Should bakers be forced to make gender transition celebration cakes?

And of course, Philips can see the message now. So can Scardina. And so can other people if Scardina told them.

So you admit no one would know what the message is unless told.

Well, no. Scardina can know regardless (others might or might not depending on context). But see my Bob and Alice analogy.

I did see your B&A analogy. It's a poor analogy. You're adding language, even if no one understands it. There was no language requested on the cake in the OP.
 
I did see your B&A analogy. It's a poor analogy. You're adding language, even if no one understands it. There was no language requested on the cake in the OP.

Reasonable people understand.

The reason you write a message on a cake is because there is no inherent message in any cake.

Write "Happy Birthday" and any cake magically is transformed to a birthday cake.

All can be transformed because none are inherently something else.

If a customer wants to impart some meaning into a cake that is not the business of the baker.
 
um: When an inherent goal of your economic system is that it be free of irrational bigotry and exclusions based on those bigotries...

JM: And where are you getting that?

um: It is an essential element of a free society.

JM: Is it? What are you basing that on?

A sense of morality.

You can't both have freedom and also allow bigots to deny service based on nothing more than ignorance.

That is freedom for the ignorant baker and hardship for the innocent victim.

That is not a system based on the equal right to freedom of all the innocent.
So suppose at some construction site full of deplorables, the boss lady decides she's the boss man, gets hormone therapy, and grows a beard. Suppose the ditchdiggers get freaked out by this because they're a bunch of ignorant rednecks, so they go on strike, demanding that she shave off her beard. Those bigots are denying service to her based on nothing more than ignorance.

Since you're in favor of freedom and have a sense of morality, you can't have that, can you? That is freedom for the ignorant ditchdiggers and hardship for the innocent boss transman victim, no? That is not a system based on the equal right to freedom of all the innocent, is it? Since in your mind the freedom of the innocent trumps the freedom of the guilty, the implication of your declared moral principle is inescapably clear, isn't it?

You, in your hypothetical government-appointed role as the official enforcer of the freedom of the economic system from irrational bigotry and exclusions based on those bigotries, will authorize the boss transman to hire an overseer, who will put the striking ditchdiggers back to work, with a whip.

If you think our man-made system is not based on the equal right to freedom of all the innocent then you are a potential threat to many.
No, he isn't. If you think that our man-made system is based on the equal right to freedom of all the innocent, or that it should be, then your vaunted sense of morality is a diseased one, making you a potential threat to many. And not just a threat to many guilty. Respecting the rights of the guilty protects the innocent too.
 
Yeah the guilty (Baker) does need their rights protected too. That I agree with. The Baker still has the right to move his business to a place where denying service to transgender people is acceptable. I'm sure his business would be welcome in Kuwait.
 
So suppose at some construction site full of deplorables, the boss lady decides she's the boss man, gets hormone therapy, and grows a beard. Suppose the ditchdiggers get freaked out by this because they're a bunch of ignorant rednecks, so they go on strike, demanding that she shave off her beard. Those bigots are denying service to her based on nothing more than ignorance.

The idea that a worker serves an overseer is an inherent problem of capitalism.

Capitalism has within it the master/slave mentality.

Strikes have to be based on more than that to be reasonable and valid.

But a union is just a necessary evil within capitalism.

It is not something that magically makes capitalism a moral system.
 
So suppose at some construction site full of deplorables, the boss lady decides she's the boss man, gets hormone therapy, and grows a beard. Suppose the ditchdiggers get freaked out by this because they're a bunch of ignorant rednecks, so they go on strike, demanding that she shave off her beard. Those bigots are denying service to her based on nothing more than ignorance.

The idea that a worker serves an overseer is an inherent problem of capitalism.

You do realize that "works for" and "serves" are not synonyms?

Oh, you don't realize that.
 
So suppose at some construction site full of deplorables, the boss lady decides she's the boss man, gets hormone therapy, and grows a beard. Suppose the ditchdiggers get freaked out by this because they're a bunch of ignorant rednecks, so they go on strike, demanding that she shave off her beard. Those bigots are denying service to her based on nothing more than ignorance.

The idea that a worker serves an overseer is an inherent problem of capitalism.

You do realize that "works for" and "serves" are not synonyms?

Oh, you don't realize that.

This is what I responded to.

Those bigots are denying service to her based on nothing more than ignorance.
 
Suppose hypothetically a debate had gone like this:

Davos: If you exclude a message ONLY a specific group would want you specifically exclude that group. No adult is fooled and thinks you only oppose the message but are not first opposed to the people.

Aemon: You're okay with excluding a message ONLY Lannisters would want. So you explicitly exclude the Lannisters. No adult is fooled and thinks you only oppose the message but are not first opposed to the people.

Davos: Who owns King's Landing is a matter for the Starks to decide.

[Background information: Conveniently, the Starks are currently saying the Baratheons own King's Landing.]

Aemon: The Lannisters say it's a matter for the Lannisters to decide. Your opinion that it's up to the Starks means you have a political difference of opinion with Lannisters. It does not mean that by being uppity enough to disagree with you, those Lannisters are thereby promoting hate and violence and want to kill people. You know, the Baratheons also say it's not up to the Starks to decide. If a Baratheon asked for a cake saying King's Landing rightfully belongs to the Baratheons, would you say that means he's promoting hate and violence and wants to kill people? Or is it just Lannisters who you apply that inference to?

Davos: A matter for the Lannisters to decide? Says who? The brutal oppressor and thief? The only place ownership of King's Landing is legally defined is at Winterfell.​

Who owns King's Landing is of course off-topic in this thread -- let us say no more about that -- but would it be a derail to point out that Davos evaded the question about whether he defines all land ownership claims as hate and violence and wanting to kill people, or only land ownership claims he disagrees with?

Davos says people in the write-a-message-for-pay business should be required to write a message they find loathsome, unless it's a message Davos classifies as hate and violence and wanting to kill people. How are we to find out if that's a reasonable principle to build into our law, unless we clarify the criteria for deciding whether a message is hate and violence and wanting to kill people?
 
... When there are parallels between your thought processes and Christianity, and you have a problem with the parallels being pointed out but you don't have a problem with the parallels existing, that's on you.

I don't have a problem with anything of the sort being called out if I am actually doing it. I am not doing what you accuse me of, I am merely disagreeing with the things you post.

Here's an exchange that happened in this thread:

Gospel wrote: Yes, everyone who sticks around is subject to and agrees to the laws of the land.

I wrote: An "agreement" is a "meeting of the minds". It happens when someone says "I agree", not when someone says "he agrees".

Gospel wrote: Sooo.... You're saying what exactly?

You wrote: I'm not sure, but it could be that laws have minds, and you need to come to a personal agreement with them before you are subject to them.​

Here's a typical example of religious thinking:

Christian 1: We are creations of God; He has every right to control us, as a potter has the right to control his pot.

Atheist: There's no such thing as God.

Christian 1: Sooo.... You're saying what exactly?

Christian 2: It could be that he's saying there was no Divine command so he ought not to be prohibited from killing his neighbor.​

The parallel is right there for all to see. You evidently don't have a problem with the parallel existing. But you have a problem with me pointing it out.

Please yourself.
 
He was going to bake the cake for them right until the customer let slip they were trans and it was a trans person's celebration.
Tactical advice for lawyers:

"If the law is against you, pound on the facts.

If the facts are against you, pound on the law.

If the law and the facts are against you, pound on the table."​

The customer did not "let slip" she was trans. She brought it up deliberately, for the purpose of causing Phillips not to bake the cake he was going to bake for her. The reason you are misrepresenting the facts of the case -- pounding on the table -- is because the facts and the law are against you.
 
Yeah the guilty (Baker) does need their rights protected too. That I agree with. The Baker still has the right to move his business to a place where denying service to transgender people is acceptable. I'm sure his business would be welcome in Kuwait.
Yes, I get that that's your position. You understand though, don't you, that on this whole baker's rights issue, you're a moderate? I was arguing with an extremist. He wrote:

"A sense of morality. You can't both have freedom and also allow bigots to deny service based on nothing more than ignorance. ... That is not a system based on the equal right to freedom of all the innocent. If you think our man-made system is not based on the equal right to freedom of all the innocent then you are a potential threat to many."​

Well, if the baker decides to exercise his right to move his business to Kuwait in order to get out of obeying the Colorado regulators, and the Colorado regulators let him leave, then that would mean they're allowing the bigot to deny service based on nothing more than ignorance. Your principles imply the bakery should be shut down if the owner won't obey. Untermensche's principles imply the bakery should stay open and the owner should be flogged until he obeys; further, they imply that if you aren't okay with flogging the baker then you are a potential threat -- due, presumably, to your lack of concern for freedom and lack of a sense of morality.

I'm pointing this out in order to prove untermensche's principles are unreasonable; but of course this doesn't imply anything one way or the other about your principles. That's a whole different discussion.
 
Suppose the ditchdiggers get freaked out by this because they're a bunch of ignorant rednecks, so they go on strike, demanding that she shave off her beard.

The idea that a worker serves an overseer is an inherent problem of capitalism.

Capitalism has within it the master/slave mentality.

Strikes have to be based on more than that to be reasonable and valid.

But a union is just a necessary evil within capitalism.
Stuff and nonsense -- precapitalist and left-wing economic systems have the master/slave mentality; it's capitalism that doesn't. And that a union is just a necessary evil is the standard line socialists use to try to explain away the embarrassing fact that capitalist countries have independent trade unions while socialist countries invariably prohibit them -- if snake-oil salesmen got control of the government they'd ban real doctors. Trade unionists who think socialists are their friends are being "useful idiots". But debating the evil of capitalism is off-topic here so let's not have another derail.

You say strikes have to be based on more than rednecks freaking out to be reasonable and valid. And that certainly follows from the same moral principle from which you derive forcing bakers to make gender transition celebration cakes. So then what are you going to do about it when you have an unreasonable invalid strike by a bunch of freaked-out rednecks on your hands? Well, according to your moral principle, you're going to flog the workers until they do their job. People who follow your principle have the master/slave mentality.
 
He was going to bake the cake for them right until the customer let slip they were trans and it was a trans person's celebration.
Tactical advice for lawyers:

"If the law is against you, pound on the facts.

If the facts are against you, pound on the law.

If the law and the facts are against you, pound on the table."​

The customer did not "let slip" she was trans. She brought it up deliberately, for the purpose of causing Phillips not to bake the cake he was going to bake for her. The reason you are misrepresenting the facts of the case -- pounding on the table -- is because the facts and the law are against you.

You seem to have some mistaken thought in your head that it matters. He was going to make the cake, in the shape that was asked for, and in a shape he would make for anyone else.

I am not a lawyer. I will not play your fuckfuck lawyer games. What you have described in the top half of your post is lawful evil. When the law is againt ethics and society, change the law. When bigots stand before you, push them out of your way. When they won't move, bury them.

You seem to think the cause for knowledge matters. It does not. Does it suddenly stop being anti:black discrimination if a whiteface black man goes into a discriminating bakers shop, orders a cake, wipes off their whiteface and then the baker says "aha! I will not make a cake for a black person's wedding!"? No. It's still discrimination.
 
You seem to think the cause for knowledge matters. It does not. Does it suddenly stop being anti:black discrimination if a whiteface black man goes into a discriminating bakers shop, orders a cake, wipes off their whiteface and then the baker says "aha! I will not make a cake for a black person's wedding!"? No. It's still discrimination.
That's a poor comparison.

More apt would be,
Customer orders a two layer cake, chocolate on the bottom and white on the top. Baker says, "It'll be ready in 3 hours, I'll need a $10 deposit." The the customer says, "The color combination represents white supremacy. It's for a KKK picnic." Baker responds, "Fuck you. I'm not making you that cake."

I'm not sure how the law stands on such a refusal of service. Neither do I care. It's fine with me.
Tom
 
Suppose the ditchdiggers get freaked out by this because they're a bunch of ignorant rednecks, so they go on strike, demanding that she shave off her beard.

The idea that a worker serves an overseer is an inherent problem of capitalism.

Capitalism has within it the master/slave mentality.

Strikes have to be based on more than that to be reasonable and valid.

But a union is just a necessary evil within capitalism.
Stuff and nonsense -- precapitalist and left-wing economic systems have the master/slave mentality; it's capitalism that doesn't. And that a union is just a necessary evil is the standard line socialists use to try to explain away the embarrassing fact that capitalist countries have independent trade unions while socialist countries invariably prohibit them -- if snake-oil salesmen got control of the government they'd ban real doctors. Trade unionists who think socialists are their friends are being "useful idiots". But debating the evil of capitalism is off-topic here so let's not have another derail.

You say strikes have to be based on more than rednecks freaking out to be reasonable and valid. And that certainly follows from the same moral principle from which you derive forcing bakers to make gender transition celebration cakes. So then what are you going to do about it when you have an unreasonable invalid strike by a bunch of freaked-out rednecks on your hands? Well, according to your moral principle, you're going to flog the workers until they do their job. People who follow your principle have the master/slave mentality.

Name the essential features of socialism before this derail gets shut down.

Capitalism does not just have independent trade unions.

Anti-capitalists imposed them onto a system without them.

A union is an anti-capitalist institution. It has nothing to do with capitalism. It is a necessary evil to protect people from the constant abuses from capitalists.

In the US as the unions have been illegally killed off the middle class has diminished. The child no longer has the same opportunity as the parent.
 
A call for “tangible, physical evidence” is broad, sure. However, when it is made directly after a more specific request for specific “tangible, physical evidence” without any indication that the initial request was withdrawn, it sure as hell looks like a request for that same specific “tangible, physical evidence”.

Sure, if one ignores the plain language of “tangible, physical evidence.” Indeed, the words used for both phrases are different, the words for both phrases have a limited range of meaning, the meanings being different, indicates the message of what is being requested isn’t the same for both phrases. Considering that I am perfectly capable of asking for something specific, since I already did it, and subsequently didn’t ask for the same specific object but asked for something different, your “sure as hell looks like” is untenable.

No, it isn't untenable.

Given that up to that point you had not indicated that the original specific request was no longer the request being made, it was certainly reasonable that the previous specific request was still the thing being requested despite the non-specificity of the follow up.

You asked for a specific physical signed document, it was noted that was an unreasonable request to make of a random person on the internet. You then responded that it was not unreasonable to ask for non-specific tangible, physical evidence (btw, that is still unreasonable to ask of a random person in a discussion on an internet forum). Why would you even make that comment if you were not still asking for the same thing that was described as unreasonable in the first place?

You see, I am maintaining a defense against your objection, therefor it is wrong to characterize my response as untenable.

Why would you even make that comment if you were not still asking for the same thing that was described as unreasonable in the first place?

Answered previously. To repeat, to sidestep your red herring and bring the conversation back to the topic of Jarhyn’s claims. I moved past your invitation to discuss irrelevancies. So, I stated I’d settle for other evidence in support of Jarhyn’s claims. Your view is untenable because it ignores the plain text, good ol’ fashion meaning of words, probably for the purpose to continue with your need to bitch about something. Furthermore, since I am demonstrably capable of requesting specific kinds of evidence, and I had done so, then the request for something else, as explicitly stated by the use of entirely different words, renders your view untenable.

My view has two parts. Addressing your complain about something red herring. The other part of my argument is moving past that and asking for other evidence to support Jarhyn’s claims.

Indeed, you didn’t attempt to provide any other kind of evidence that might support Jarhyn’s claims. You’ve made no attempt to defend Jarhyn’s claims with any reasoned argument, illuminating your purpose was to bitch about something and nothing more.

You must be a fan of Des Cartes. You type it, therefore it is! You can allege ad nauseum the request is unreasonable, typing it, saying it, doesn’t make it so. You can repeat your appeal to self-evident with your remark circular comment of of I think it is reasonable, then says a lot about my view of what is reasonable, and it is circular as its premised upon assuming what I asked was unreasonable.

Yet, what I asked hasn’t been shown by you to be unreasonable and your vacuous appeal to it being self-evident is possibly a consequence of being incapable of making a showing of unreasonableness.

Regardless, your interjection with the red herring of whether the request is reasonable distracts from the ostensible, metaphysical claims made by Jarhyn. Jarhyn claimed Phillips had a specific “job to do” and certain “requirements,” among them to serve the whole community. What’s the evidence for this? He didn’t provide any. A good starting point would be the papers Phillips signed to operate his business. That IS relevant evidence to the issue and it isn’t unreasonable to request he submit them if he can, you know to support his claims of what Phillips IS to do. Making extraordinary claims, like Jarhyn did, requires strong evidence, and what I requested is relevant evidence.
 
I don't know.

But if a customer ordering it said it was I'd believe them.
Tom

The question is:

Did the baker put a message into the cake?

Or is the message only in the mind of the customer?

As it relates to Phillips, it doesn’t matter because Scardina didn’t just request a pink cake. She went into detail the colors and what they represented and how they represented it.
 
I don't know.

But if a customer ordering it said it was I'd believe them.
Tom

The question is:

Did the baker put a message into the cake?

Or is the message only in the mind of the customer?

As it relates to Phillips, it doesn’t matter because Scardina didn’t just request a pink cake. She went into detail the colors and what they represented and how they represented it.

The customer merely said what she was going to abstractly think of a cake that had no message.

The cake had no message.

The customer pretended it did by abstracting it in her mind.
 
I don't know.

But if a customer ordering it said it was I'd believe them.
Tom

The question is:

Did the baker put a message into the cake?

Or is the message only in the mind of the customer?

As it relates to Phillips, it doesn’t matter because Scardina didn’t just request a pink cake. She went into detail the colors and what they represented and how they represented it.

It seems impossible to get this simple point across.

The baker didn't care about the design of the cake.
The baker didn't care that Scardina is trans.
The baker only cared about the message that Scardina put in the cake.

And I'm confident that Scardina put that message in the cake in order to bait Phillips into a frivolous lawsuit. So, I consider Scardina a scumbag lawyer. Being trans doesn't change that. It doesn't matter if Scardina is really trans or not.
Tom
 
The baker only cared about the message that Scardina put in the cake.

She did not put a message into the cake.

She subjectively abstracted a cake in her mind, a cake that had no message, into a personal message no other person would see because it is not there.

It is only in her mind.

That is the only place the message exists.

The baker is not putting a message into a cake.

The baker is making a cake that has no message.

A cake that has a message is a cake in which an ordinary person would understand the message merely by looking at the cake.
 
Back
Top Bottom