Should the focus be more on oligarch/mafia ties than just plain Russian government?

[Keith&Co.]

So, Russians doing bad things to us is not a concern, but the outrage over it is. We are supposed (by barbos) to be perfectly content to be fucked with by Russians, and not raise any fuss over it.

Yes, if you fuck you should be content with being fucked.

Where you come from, do parents typically accept 'he started it' as an excuse?

But still, you're sticking to being outraged that people are outraged at the Russians, ignoring what's actually going on.

 

[laughing dog]

Yeah, this outrage about russians doing (allegedly) all these bad things is surprising. I wish americans had the same outrage when US critters were caught doing exactly the same thing russians are accused of.

Um... If you look closely, the outrage IS aimed at the Americans doing these exact things.
No one's asking to impeach any Russian.
No one's wandering around saying 'Damn, we thought Gorbachev was the dumb one!'
And no one's excusing Putin by saying that Khrushchev would have been 'just as bad.'

Seriously, read the room, dude.

Exactly - the issue is with the Trump campaign colluding with the Russians, not that the Russians were trying to influence the election.

 

[barbos]

So, it's OK when your own people try to meddle in other countries elections but worthy of going apeshit if it's done to you?
Why can't you have some perspective?

He doesn't lack perspective; you do.

He's talking about putting Americans in jail. Russians can go fuck themselves; they're irrelevant, they do what all intelligence services do.

The point is what the Trump people did, not what the Russians did.

Not all intelligence services do that. Finnish intelligence services did not interfere with russian and ukrainian elections.
In fact not many countries do that, US, Russia, Great Britain and that's probably it. And Russia is is doing it because US is doing it.

 

[barbos]

Yes, if you fuck you should be content with being fucked.

Where you come from, do parents typically accept 'he started it' as an excuse?

This analogy does not work in politics.

But still, you're sticking to being outraged that people are outraged at the Russians, ignoring what's actually going on.

And what is going on exactly?

 

[laughing dog]

. And Russia is is doing it because US is doing it.

What is the basis for this claim? Do you have some inside knowledge of Russian foreign or intelligence policy or are you just blowing another kiss to Putin?

 

[JohnG]

A little off topic - Im not an american, (Im Canadian) but I certainly feel a close bond with the USA and the great people Ive known from south of the border.

Watching the politics going on in the US is mind blowing. Im literally on the edge of my seat watching this unravel. I hope no one gets hurt in all this but Im thinking its going to wrap up soon in a blaze of glory somehow.

The US president is basically an agent of a corrupt Russian govt....and yet there are large parts of the US population are good with that. Its unfreakinbeleivable.

What's going to happen next?

 

[barbos]

A little off topic - Im not an american, (Im Canadian) but I certainly feel a close bond with the USA and the great people Ive known from south of the border.

Watching the politics going on in the US is mind blowing. Im literally on the edge of my seat watching this unravel. I hope no one gets hurt in all this but Im thinking its going to wrap up soon in a blaze of glory somehow.

The US president is basically an agent of a corrupt Russian govt....and yet there are large parts of the US population are good with that. Its unfreakinbeleivable.

What's going to happen next?

Yes, Trump is second to none in what he does, but you are too quick to forget Rob Ford and even Stephen Harper.
As for russian government corruption then it is where it should be considering overall state of the economy and the rest of factors.
Italy is probably more corrupted than current Russia.

 

[Deepak]

A little off topic - Im not an american, (Im Canadian) but I certainly feel a close bond with the USA and the great people Ive known from south of the border.

Watching the politics going on in the US is mind blowing. Im literally on the edge of my seat watching this unravel. I hope no one gets hurt in all this but Im thinking its going to wrap up soon in a blaze of glory somehow.

The US president is basically an agent of a corrupt Russian govt....and yet there are large parts of the US population are good with that. Its unfreakinbeleivable.

What's going to happen next?

Yes, Trump is second to none in what he does, but you are too quick to forget Rob Ford and even Stephen Harper.
As for russian government corruption then it is where it should be considering overall state of the economy and the rest of factors.
Italy is probably more corrupted than current Russia.

Do you have an actual source for this, or is it another case of Barbos' hunches?

For example Transparency International and World Audit consistently rank Italy higher than Russia. Must be another case of that Russophobia that seems to be going around...

 

[barbos]

Yes, Trump is second to none in what he does, but you are too quick to forget Rob Ford and even Stephen Harper.
As for russian government corruption then it is where it should be considering overall state of the economy and the rest of factors.
Italy is probably more corrupted than current Russia.

Do you have an actual source for this, or is it another case of Barbos' hunches?

For example Transparency International and World Audit consistently rank Italy higher than Russia. Must be another case of that Russophobia that seems to be going around...

They don't measure actual corruption level. They measure perception of the public. So yes, italians have bigger mafia than russians, the difference is, they don't reflex about it much becasue GDP is high.

 

[Deepak]

Do you have an actual source for this, or is it another case of Barbos' hunches?

For example Transparency International and World Audit consistently rank Italy higher than Russia. Must be another case of that Russophobia that seems to be going around...

They don't measure actual corruption level. They measure perception of the public. So yes, italians have bigger mafia than russians, the difference is, they don't reflex about it much.

So no to actually having some basis for your statement then?

And I'm glad to hear Russia doesn't have much in the way of organized crime.

I'll add that to the file of Barbos' Unsourced Nuggets of Wisdom.

 

[Opoponax]

A little off topic - Im not an american, (Im Canadian) but I certainly feel a close bond with the USA and the great people Ive known from south of the border.

Watching the politics going on in the US is mind blowing. Im literally on the edge of my seat watching this unravel. I hope no one gets hurt in all this but Im thinking its going to wrap up soon in a blaze of glory somehow.

The US president is basically an agent of a corrupt Russian govt....and yet there are large parts of the US population are good with that. Its unfreakinbeleivable.

That's what I find disheartening in the long run. Even if/when Trump is tossed from office, it won't end the stupidity of tens of millions of Americans who have had their minds sanded down to bowling-ball smoothness by conservative a.m. radio, Fox News, Breitbart, Infowars, et al.

Those outlets won't miss a beat, and will keep on keepin' on regardless of what happens. And the same tens of millions will still buy it. It's a gross perversion of free speech, but I don't see any way to stop it.

One would've thought that after the Bush/Cheney debacle that the GOP would never again be allowed within several miles of D.C., but here they are in control of all three branches of government. What Trump has exposed in the American people... I'm still shocked by it. And genuinely saddened. I'd mistakenly thought we'd come farther than that.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

repoman, I am in general agreement to your op. The Trump campaign collusion with the Russians is a microcosm of the US govt [politicians] colluding with oligarchs. It is important for us to discuss how our government is for sale by undemocratic entities such as foreign governments, criminal enterprises, oligarchs, and for-profit corporations.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Where you come from, do parents typically accept 'he started it' as an excuse?

This analogy does not work in politics.

No, this defense does not work among grown-ups. No one is going to ever be content with being fucked, no matter who started it.
Humans don't act that way. So your advice is pretty childish, framing international intelligence as a game where there's an agreed-upon score being kept.

But still, you're sticking to being outraged that people are outraged at the Russians, ignoring what's actually going on.

And what is going on exactly?

Americans are pissed at Americans for what Americans did. We'd be JUST as pissed, and waving much the same signs, if the Trumps were colluding with China, Iran, Argentina, New Zealand, The Vatican, or South Africa. Flogging the idea that the Russians are justified in what THEY did doesn't really matter, and has little or nothing to do with the outrage you're taking so personally.

 

[barbos]

They don't measure actual corruption level. They measure perception of the public. So yes, italians have bigger mafia than russians, the difference is, they don't reflex about it much.

So no to actually having some basis for your statement then?

Neither do you it seems.

 

[Deepak]

So no to actually having some basis for your statement then?

Neither do you it seems.

That's demonstrably incorrect - to the point of being clownish. Anyone can hit the triangle next to the post to see my original statement, as well as the basis for my statement (and the methodology of the rankings I linked are only a couple of clicks away). And while they don't, as you put it, simply measure public perception - if that's all they did it would still be a much better measure than Barbos' perception. That you think your arguments from personal revelation would be accepted on this forum are foolish, to phrase it diplomatically. Perhaps you'd be more comfortable posting to the General Religion board?

 

[barbos]

Neither do you it seems.

That's demonstrably incorrect - to the point of being clownish. Anyone can hit the triangle next to the post to see my original statement, as well as the basis for my statement (and the methodology of the rankings I linked are only a couple of clicks away). And while they don't, as you put it, simply measure public perception - if that's all they did it would still be a much better measure than Barbos' perception. That you think your arguments from personal revelation would be accepted on this forum are foolish, to phrase it diplomatically. Perhaps you'd be more comfortable posting to the General Religion board?

No, you are wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#Validity

 

[beero1000]

That's demonstrably incorrect - to the point of being clownish. Anyone can hit the triangle next to the post to see my original statement, as well as the basis for my statement (and the methodology of the rankings I linked are only a couple of clicks away). And while they don't, as you put it, simply measure public perception - if that's all they did it would still be a much better measure than Barbos' perception. That you think your arguments from personal revelation would be accepted on this forum are foolish, to phrase it diplomatically. Perhaps you'd be more comfortable posting to the General Religion board?

No, you are wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#Validity

That link doesn't say what you think it says.

Also, even if true, all you're arguing is that Italy is more corrupt than measured, not that Russia is less corrupt.

 

[Deepak]

That's demonstrably incorrect - to the point of being clownish. Anyone can hit the triangle next to the post to see my original statement, as well as the basis for my statement (and the methodology of the rankings I linked are only a couple of clicks away). And while they don't, as you put it, simply measure public perception - if that's all they did it would still be a much better measure than Barbos' perception. That you think your arguments from personal revelation would be accepted on this forum are foolish, to phrase it diplomatically. Perhaps you'd be more comfortable posting to the General Religion board?

No, you are wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#Validity

What am I wrong about? The source you linked states that early CPIs used public perception polling previously but now they base the score on NGO surveys (which are not public perception as such) as well as analyst assessments. The Validity section, that is the specific anchor in your link, states that the scores are fit for purpose:

"very strong significant correlation" between the Corruption Perceptions Index and two other proxies for corruption

But again - even if they were merely public perception polling, and they aren't perfect in some Platonic sense you've still failed to provide a better assessment. In fact you've offered nothing at all except your own feelings. To quote you from the other thread:

It is not explanation, it's revelation.

At least there's something we can agree on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revelation

 

[barbos]

No, you are wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#Validity

What am I wrong about? The source you linked states that early CPIs used public perception polling previously but now they base the score on NGO surveys (which are not public perception as such) as well as analyst assessments. The Validity section, that is the specific anchor in your link, states that the scores are fit for purpose:

"very strong significant correlation" between the Corruption Perceptions Index and two other proxies for corruption

But again - even if they were merely public perception polling, and they aren't perfect in some Platonic sense you've still failed to provide a better assessment. In fact you've offered nothing at all except your own feelings. To quote you from the other thread:

I am not aware of any change of their methods, but you can't spit in Italy without hitting mafia member.
And another thing - Silvio Berlusconi can give Trump a run for his money and italians were keeping electing him as their PM.

 

[Deepak]

What am I wrong about? The source you linked states that early CPIs used public perception polling previously but now they base the score on NGO surveys (which are not public perception as such) as well as analyst assessments. The Validity section, that is the specific anchor in your link, states that the scores are fit for purpose:

"very strong significant correlation" between the Corruption Perceptions Index and two other proxies for corruption

But again - even if they were merely public perception polling, and they aren't perfect in some Platonic sense you've still failed to provide a better assessment. In fact you've offered nothing at all except your own feelings. To quote you from the other thread:

I am not aware of any change of their methods, but you can't spit in Italy without hitting mafia member.
And another thing - Silvio Berlusconi can give Trump a run for his money and italians were keeping electing him as their PM.

Somehow, I think, your unwillingness to read the source you cited isn't as formidable an argument as you think it is.