NobleSavage
Veteran Member
Convince me that we should stay in NATO. I say, let Europe defend its self while we mind our own borders.
It's coming, maybe sooner that later. America can't even pay for the last two misguided wars. Will the world keep loaning them money to have another one?Convince me that we should stay in NATO. I say, let Europe defend its self while we mind our own borders.
WASHINGTON — The head of NATO said Monday he will ask European nations to spend more on defense at a September summit in Wales of heads of state in response to crises that are testing the Western alliance from Ukraine to Iraq and Syria.
Anders Fogh Rasmussen, secretary general of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, said all 28 of its members should devote at least 2 percent of their gross domestic products to the military.
Rasmussen, a former Danish prime minister, praised Estonia for recently joining the United States, Britain and Greece as the only NATO members who currently spend at least 2 percent of GDP on defense. The United States spends about 4 percent, a bigger share than any other ally.
Maybe if Europe paid it's fair share we could afford a cushy welfare state like Europe has.
Maybe if Europe paid it's fair share we could afford a cushy welfare state like Europe has.
How do you figure? Do you think less need for the US military would somehow translate into less US military spending? You have eleven aircraft carrier groups. You're mothballing thousands of tanks because there's no need for them and yet still building more tanks no matter how loudly the Pentagon insists they don't want or need them in order to keep cushy government jobs. You're deploying anti-missile systems despite those systems not even passing the beginning beta tests. The list goes on and on. It's not like your country employs some kind of sane metric which matches military spending to what you're going to be doing with the military.
Why is it that Americans always talk a big talk about international order and their commitment to it when things are easy for them, but the moment it seems like that talk could lead them to having to fight a strong enemy they start getting isolationist again? I seriously doubt this would even be a question for anyone other than the lunatic fringe if it wasn't for the current geopolitical situation. If America wants to pull out of NATO it should have done so in the 90's, not now that there's a madman in the kremlin. If a real war broke out in the world today, it'd be the world wars all over again; the US sitting back to let Europe do all the groundwork, then swoop in at the last moment to try and take credit when they realize that 'oh, actually it could be real bad for us depending on who wins'. No, fuck that. You guys committed to NATO, that means you have obligations; expectations to meet. Reneg on that in the middle of a geopolitical crisis, and the US would be utterly alone in the world; with dire long-term consequences for its prosperity. But hey, who am I to stand in the way of Americans wanting to slowly self-destruct without realizing it?
The US pulling out of NATO now would be the equivalent of having 'friend' who goes up to the outlaw biker dude at the bar to tell him you said he's an asshole, then going back over to you and goading you into committing to the fight while promising you that he has your back only to then disappear when glasses start flying: cowardly and dishonorable behavior. Oh, and then afterwards you find out that he hacked your cellphone and is sharing your girlfriend's naked pictures with his brothers.
Maybe if Europe paid it's fair share we could afford a cushy welfare state like Europe has.
How do you figure? Do you think less need for the US military would somehow translate into less US military spending? You have eleven aircraft carrier groups. You're mothballing thousands of tanks because there's no need for them and yet still building more tanks no matter how loudly the Pentagon insists they don't want or need them in order to keep cushy government jobs. You're deploying anti-missile systems despite those systems not even passing the beginning beta tests. The list goes on and on. It's not like your country employs some kind of sane metric which matches military spending to what you're going to be doing with the military.
Maybe if Europe paid it's fair share we could afford a cushy welfare state like Europe has.
http://www.thestate.com/2014/07/08/3552102/nato-head-europeans-must-pay-more.html
Rasmussen, a former Danish prime minister, praised Estonia for recently joining the United States, Britain and Greece as the only NATO members who currently spend at least 2 percent of GDP on defense. The United States spends about 4 percent, a bigger share than any other ally.
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Why is it that Americans always talk a big talk about international order and their commitment to it when things are easy for them, but the moment it seems like that talk could lead them to having to fight a strong enemy they start getting isolationist again? I seriously doubt this would even be a question for anyone other than the lunatic fringe if it wasn't for the current geopolitical situation. If America wants to pull out of NATO it should have done so in the 90's, not now that there's a madman in the kremlin. If a real war broke out in the world today, it'd be the world wars all over again; the US sitting back to let Europe do all the groundwork, then swoop in at the last moment to try and take credit when they realize that 'oh, actually it could be real bad for us depending on who wins'. No, fuck that. You guys committed to NATO, that means you have obligations; expectations to meet. Reneg on that in the middle of a geopolitical crisis, and the US would be utterly alone in the world; with dire long-term consequences for its prosperity. But hey, who am I to stand in the way of Americans wanting to slowly self-destruct without realizing it?
The US pulling out of NATO now would be the equivalent of having 'friend' who goes up to the outlaw biker dude at the bar to tell him you said he's an asshole, then going back over to you and goading you into committing to the fight while promising you that he has your back only to then disappear when glasses start flying: cowardly and dishonorable behavior. Oh, and then afterwards you find out that he hacked your cellphone and is sharing your girlfriend's naked pictures with his brothers.
Awww. Europe can't take care of itself? The U.S. has policed the world long enough--and I might add, doing so to loudly voiced complaints from the people of Europe about being the world's policeman.
So how about we stop? How about we let each nation in the world defend itself. As an American citizen, I don't fear being invaded and I don't care if we're #1 at Whatever in the world. And as an American citizen, I am fucking war weary, as is most of the country, and risking another war in Europe just doesn't sound like a good time.
The U.S. is supposed to take the lead and risk itself over something that is purely a European affair? One that can only be bad for the U.S.? And at the risk of nuclear conflagration? As far as any commitments honored, the U.S. has honored it since the end of WW2. That's going on 60 years. It's enough.
Awww. Europe can't take care of itself? The U.S. has policed the world long enough--and I might add, doing so to loudly voiced complaints from the people of Europe about being the world's policeman.
And as an American citizen, I am fucking war weary, as is most of the country, and risking another war in Europe just doesn't sound like a good time.
The U.S. is supposed to take the lead and risk itself over something that is purely a European affair? One that can only be bad for the U.S.? And at the risk of nuclear conflagration? As far as any commitments honored, the U.S. has honored it since the end of WW2. That's going on 60 years. It's enough.